Subject: SMML VOL 1498 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:18:13 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Plane colors on USS LANGLEY 2: Re: USS Langley plane colors 3: U-Boat fired Rockets 4: Re: Wing colors 5: Shinano et al.... 6: Re: Scorpion, Thresher, Permit 7: Re: Plane colors on USS LANGLEY 8: HMS VANGUARD Hull 9: Calling Rich?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Plane colors on USS LANGLEY I'm making an educated guess here. I would reckon that all those planes have Chrome Yellow wings and that the camera had orthochromatic film in it. This type of film "saw" reds and yellows as dark gray. The variety of shades of gray are showing is that the sun is reflecting off the wings at different angles. Note the float plane with it's wing parallel to the deck compared to the planes nearby which are angled to the deck because they are tail draggers. What's interesting is that even the blue of the national insignia changes shades from plane to plane. Marc Flake (wishing all our friends in Oz a very happy Austrailia Day.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Lkjohnson214@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Langley plane colors The aircraft were probably all painted with the chrome yellow wings. The difference in the photos would probably come from the type of film used. Black and white orthochromatic and panchromatic films can make the same colors look very different. I can't remember which is which, but one of them when developed made colors like yellow appear darker, making it easy to mistake it for red when interpreting the picture. Lance -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: JKrakow@aol.com Subject: U-Boat fired Rockets DP writes >> I just think that the idea of mounting Wurfrahmen 41 on a U-boat can't be counted as inspired or even practical. << Yeah, firing those rockets from a submerged U-Boat was impractical, desperate and uninspired. Just like landing a Curtis Pusher on the deck of a battleship in 1911. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Wing colors >> I was looking at some photos of the USS LANGLEY and I noticed some color discrepancies on the group of planes on her deck. Now, I'm not an expert on Pre WWII US planes, but I thought most had yellow on the top wing. If you look at the following photo, http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g420000/g424475.jpg located on the US Naval History site, You'll notice a distinct difference between some of the aircraft and the top colours. What is the darker color? Are there any online sources that may show or tell what the colours are? Anywhere that would show what the individual squadron markings/colors would be? << Actually I suspect that you are being fooled by orthochromatic film. If you look carefully you will note that the planes are biplanes, with the darker wing the upper wing. The planes toward the bow have what appear to be lighter colored upper wings while the ones toward the stern darker. I suspect that the differences fore to aft are due to changing angle of the shot and perhaps increased haze the further the plane is from the camera. As to the planes themselves, the upper wing as you noted would be yellow. You will also note that the appearance of the chevron on the wing is different from plane to plane, as would be expected as the chevron color marked the plane number within an airgroup. The fuselage and lower wing would be silver doped fabric, or on the Boeing F4b grey. I looked through my limited resources on Navy biplanes, and found nothing other than yellow upper wing, silver or grey on lower wing and fuselage for the Boeing F4b, the Navy Curtiss Hawks and the Grumman Biplanes. Blue wings and fuselages weren't introduced till the Devastator and other monoplane dive and torpedo bombers which were repainted for wartime service. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Darshan Ward" Subject: Shinano et al.... Ahoy there shipmates.... A short time back there was a brief mention of various extremely short lived ships circa mid Cent 20th. My own particular focus is British and Commonwealth so the spectacularly short life of the IJN Sinano was completely unknown to me until very recently. Whilst cruising the naval history section of my local library the other day I ran into 'SHINANO' by J. Enright. If those of you already in the know would forgive me, may I share with the others a brief synopsis. Shinano was to have been the third in a class of four {improved} Yamato's. Re-designed on the stocks as an aircraft carrier on a battleship hull. completed 1943-44 amidst utmost secrecy, as was Musashi, in dry dock in Tokyo bay. Resembling to my eye at least at late Illustrious class but with a beautiful clipper bow, upper funnel canted to stbd 26deg and 17,000 T of armour, weighing in at something between 60 and 70 thousand tons. Speed of construction was hurried to the utmost extent possible as the need for the ship was urgent. Following a diasastrous launch out of drydock nov 1944, accepted into IJN after builder's trials and sailed for Kobe Naval base for final fitting out and landing on of air wing. On second day of projected two day maiden voyage was sighted off the coast of Japan by USS Archer Fish, attacked and sunk by four torpedoes, foundering some ten hours or so after being hit. The tragedy and drama of this event seems to me to be almost equal in scale to the Titanic, Hood or Bismarck but apparently is not widely known. There was great loss of loss life amongst the 2000 plus crew and dockyard personnel aboard. The captain and others remained on board to go down with their ship, tales of heroism and bravery in attempting to save the ship and make port. Stupidity in maintaining 17 knots with great holes in the ship's side, watertight doors, valves, seals, and pumps failing etc etc. A recommended read and subject for further study. I see that Tamiya has a 1-700 model of Shinano listed. Does anyone have any report concerning the worthiness of this kit? Finally and on a related subject, i.e short lived axis aircraft carriers, I learn today of the circumstances concerning the later life of the KGM Graf Zeppelin. After launch was laid up and used as floating storeship and depot for asian hardwood lumber. In 1945 was awarded to the Russians as war recompensation. and foundered under tow to a Russian port partly due to the large number of heavily loaded railway wagons full of war booty lashed to her decks! From Germany to Russia is not far and the North sea waters relatively shallow, does anybody know if the wreck has been located and explored, not to mention salvaged and if any art treasures or similar were lost aboard at that time? I for one would be very intrigued to know more. "Pour encourage les autres" ...............TX and BW....DW -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "roy knight" Subject: Re: Scorpion, Thresher, Permit Hi all; First off I want to thank everyone for the great information in a timely manner. This list is going to be a big part of my research for all future projects. Some of the information that I am looking for is a paint scheme, did the Scorpion have the red antifouling paint below the water line or was she black all the way around. Second, the model kit I am working with is the Revell Germany kit of the USS Skipjack. I know that the navy tinkered with boat within the class, so I am looking for unique(sp) information on the Scorpion herself. Tom, you said that you have line drawings of the Scorpion, where can I find copies of them? I know that working with a plastic kit instead of resin will cause alot of extra work for me but I have not worked with resin kits yet, and I'm a little apprehensive to start one. Third, is anyone aware of a PE for this kit? if there is one around it might make this project a little easier. Until my next question remember there are only two kinds of ships on the oceans; Submarines and targets. Roy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Plane colors on USS LANGLEY That dark color on the upper wing surface IS yellow. That photo was made on orthochromatic, blue-sensitive film. Ortho film renders yellow as a very dark gray in the finished print, and red becomes black (note the center of the insignia). Note also how similar the upper wing surface is in tone to the yellow flight deck markings. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: HMS VANGUARD Hull Arrrgh! Always these problems with foreign languages. Mike Bartel and Michael London are, of course, right. The hull side was not completely vertical aft of the armour belt. It was softly bended inside, but almost straight where it joined the transom stern. The B-Resina model, however, has it sharply folded in near the waterline - similar to the shape of the underwater part of the hull as shown in the hull lines. That's what I thought should be corrected. (Could have explained it better) Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Calling Rich?? "Rich" (the one I've been discussing the Argo from Star Blazers off list)...please contact me offlist. I've lost your email address and need to ask you a question. Thanks! Derek Wakefield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume