Subject: SMML VOL 1499 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:51:27 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Plane colors on USS LANGLEY 2: Chalk and cheese 3: Re: Shinano et al.... 4: Re: Plane colors on USS LANGLEY 5: Re: Scorpion, Thresher, Permit 6: Re: Shinano 7: Shinano, et al!! 8: WWII USS Tracy - DM-19 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Re: Plane colors on USS LANGLEY >> I was looking at some photos of the USS LANGLEY and I noticed some color discrepancies on the group of planes on her deck. Now, I'm not an expert on Pre WWII US planes, but I thought most had yellow on the top wing. << Darren, If you notice each aircraft has the same color upper wing except the last one spotted by the ramp and the fifth one forward on the port side. An excellent source for all US NAvy marking questions is "The Official Monogram US Navy & Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide" by John M Elliott, Maj. USMC (ret..). Volume One covers the period from 1911-1939. There are several pictures showing aircraft with yellow wings looking this dark (pg. 93, 98, 100 &102) I personally believe this is more an artifact of aircraft colors fading combined with the film chemistry of the time. A dark orange yellow if photocopied today will appear as a dark gray color, not the light gray one would associate with yellow ... too much red in the mix! Here is a little history taken from the above source: The first authorization for yellow wing tops is from 12July21, when the trainers at Pensacola were authorized this color "as the Commandant deemed desirable" T.O.54 dated 4Feb24 ordered the end of striping or camoflaging of aircraft. Standard colors and markings were to be applied at overhaul and all were ordered to be repainted by 1July24. The upper wings were ordered to be painted "Chrome Yellow or other color instead of gray." This measure was to increase visibility in the event of a crash. T.O.101 dated 19May25 ordered a color change to Naval Yellow Enamel. On 1Aug30 the color became stadardized as A/N506 The name of this color was changed in a letter dated 21Apr31 to Orange Yellow. James Corley AAA Hobby Supply email: aaahobby@earthlink.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Chalk and cheese Dave writes: >> Yeah, firing those rockets from a submerged U-Boat was impractical, desperate and uninspired. Just like landing a Curtis Pusher on the deck of a battleship in 1911. << What one has to do with the other??? Are you suggesting that over 15 years after WWII Russians suddenly thought -"Hey Germans mounted WG 41 on their submarines, what a neat idea!!! Lets put some NBMs on ours and see what happens"??? Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Paul Parsons Subject: Re: Shinano et al.... Hi Darshan, Welcome to the club! Shinano interests quite a few people around the world for possibly the same reason you mention - the spectacularly short life of an obscure aircraft carrier which just happened to be the world's largest. This obscurity relates in part to the complete destruction of all official records relating to the ship, the relative dearth of information about the IJN outside Japan, and the complete absence of any published photographs until the 1980s. I became hooked in the late 1970s after I saw the artwork for the Revell 1/1200 Shinano in a catalogue. The longer I was unable to find *any* information about the ship the more my curiosity grew. The best English language sources I've found for information about Shinano are: "Shinano! The Sinking of Japan's Secret Supership", book by Joseph F. Enright and James W. Ryan (the one you found in the library). "Battleships : Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II", book by William H. Garzke and Robert O. Dulin. "Shinano: The Jinx Carrier", essay by Lynn Lucius Moore in U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, February 1953. I posted the rarest of the 3 photographs known to exist of Shinano (to date) at the Japanese Navy & Ship Message Board: http://www.j-aircraft.org/bbs/jship_config.pl The best Japanese language source I've found for modellers of Shinano is the Gakken Pacific Ocean Military History Series volume 22: Aircraft Carriers Taiho and Shinano. This has photographs and plans of both ships, together with many photographs of a large-scale model of each. Easily available from HobbyLink Japan (www.hlj.com). From the web reviews I've read of the new model Tamiya 1/700 Shinano, including the one at smmlonline.com, it's the best they've done. Paul -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: annobon4@aol.com Subject: Re: Plane colors on USS LANGLEY Hi Guys Concerning the yellow paint on top of wings. From the Squadron book Navy Air Colors: USN, MC, and CG Camouflage and Markings Vol.1 1911-1945 comes the following paragraph on page 7. 'Although Aluminium enamel was provided for in C&R Specifications No.4 of 30 March 1918,there is no evidence of it being actually authorized for use until June of 1919,when it was adopted as a replacement for Naval Gray paint on wings of new aircraft.It was not however to be applied over gray or khaki enamels. This change was made to reduce the temperature of fabric on aircraft and to lenghten it's service life since low visibilty was no longer critical. Metal parts were painted light gray, while spar varnish was readopted as a finish for wooden interplane, poontoon and and landing gear struts. As early as May of 1920,the Pacific Fleet Air detachment at North Island,San Deigo reported it's experiment with Yellow paint or enamel on the top surfaces of aircraft to increase visibilty in case of forced landings. 5 years later,Bu Air Techincal Order No. 101 of 20 May 1925 required the use of Navy Yellow Enamel on upper wings and the top surfaces of the stablizer and elevators. I hope that this is of help and the use of paint on wood and fabric is hard to image today with planes being made of metal and composites. Two questions :What does C&R mean? Also would spar varnish be polyurvane? Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Scorpion, Thresher, Permit >> This list is going to be a big part of my research for all future projects. Some of the information that I am looking for is a paint scheme, did the Scorpion have the red antifouling paint below the water line or was she black all the way around. << Actually, looking at some photos of Scorpion taken as she left on her last deployment, at the time of the loss, Scorpion had the so-called "Pacific scheme". This was light gray on vertical surfaces and black horizontal surfaces. Earlier, at her launch from EB, she was in all-black scheme- see launch photos http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/8319/Launch.jpg http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/8319/Skids.jpg and the seatrials photo at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/8319/Setrls.jpg Check out the following for the all-black and the alternative gray scheme: http://www.csp.navy.mil/othboats/589.htm Other Skipjack boats built elsewhere (Ingalls, Mare Island) had the balck over red scheme when they slid. As an aside, for general photos of the red below, black above scheme, I recommend these two color (colour for those of you of the British persuasion) drydock views of the SSBN John Marshall: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5550/bigjohn2x90.jpg and an early (and crusty) view, with a later black over red at: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5550/drydock.html >> Second, the model kit I am working with is the Revell Germany kit of the USS Skipjack. I know that the navy tinkered with boat within the class, so I am looking for unique(sp) information on the Scorpion herself. Tom, you said that you have line drawings of the Scorpion, where can I find copies of them? << I have line drawings of the Skipjack class, based on the Skipjack herself. I can snailmail you a photocopy; they run several pages. At the time of Scorpion's loss, there had been relatively little modification to her; in fact, she was scheduled to be one of the last boats to be put through the SubSafe program stemming from Thresher's loss. The Navy was busy in the early mid-60's with the SSBN program and trying to rectify the Permit class after Thresher's loss (Most SSBNs, except for the earliest class, were based on Thresher hull designs and components). That, coupled with the noise and limited (700 ft test depth) diving depth of the Skipjack class led them to be a bit lower on the priority list for major modifications. Only a handful of Skipjacks were built, far fewer than the Permit, Sturgeon, and LA follow on classes. The leadship Skipjack and Scorpion were both built at Electric Boat, and thus were very similar to each other. The kit you are working with is actually a repop of the Aurora Skipjack, which got to Revell via their purchase of Monogram, who got the mold from Aurora when they folded. The same 3 bladed kit propeller is in the Revell kit. The Skipjack class all started with 5 bladed, so-called "speed" props, and were later refitted with the crescent shaped, seven-blade version to try to reduce noise. >> I know that working with a plastic kit instead of resin will cause alot of extra work for me but I have not worked with resin kits yet, and I'm a little apprehensive to start one. Third, is anyone aware of a PE for this kit? << Nope, I don't see why anyone would make a photoetch set either. Very little in the way of details that lend themselves to photoetch. Even a replacement prop at this scale 1:239 (?) is a bit unrealistic in photoetch. The Blue Water Navy kit in 1:350 has limited photoetch, the prop and some inport only line railings are about it. Actually a pretty easy resin kit as a starter..... So, where are the Thresher and Permit questions? :^) Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Sean Obrien Subject: Re: Shinano I believe the carrier Taiho was also lost on her first cruise. Torpedoed by the USS Albacore(my father was one of the junior officers on board) while fueling her planes, within six hours was lost with dozens of planes and most of her crew. This without ever participating in the war she was designed for. She was the biggest carrier of the war built as a carrier from the keel up. This was on the same day the USS Cavalla sunk the Shokako(spelling may not be right) Sean O'Brien -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Henry Blecha Subject: Shinano, et al!! Darshan During a recent session of surfing I ran across the following website that might be of interest, It is: http://www.geocities.com/ijncv/ It is titled "IJNCV Camouflage - 1944-45". I don't know if this site has been posted here on SMML before. If so I apologize for the repeat. Enjoy!! v/r Henry Blecha -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Henry Blecha Subject: WWII USS Tracy - DM-19 I am trying to locate some information on the USS Tracy (DM-19). I have not been able to locate locally a copy of Janes that would probably have it listed. All I know at this time is that it is a Light Minelayer. It and 2-3 sisterships were parked in Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. She was moored near the area where the USS Pennsylvania was dry docked. A friend of my uncles and a neighbor in my home town of Nampa, ID was assigned to the Tracy. During the attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor he was killed while aboard the Pennsylvania along with 2 other shipmates. My uncle still has cards he received from his friend while he was stationed in Hawaii. Somewhere I read in one of the historical books where he was mentioned during the action and that he may have been one of the first casualties of the event and the was. Been quite awhile since I read the book so its title escapes me. So I am just curious as to what this DM class of ships is and looks like. Does anyone know if there may be a kit available, or one that could be converted from some other kit. I did find some info that the Minelayers may have been converted Destroyers. I would appreciate some help. v/r Henry Blecha -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume