Subject: SMML VOL 1557 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:12:55 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: discussion time again..hypothetical 2: time machine ship visits 3: In defence of the Airfix Bismarck..!! yes ... true! read on..... 4: misc 5: Re: Trumpeter/Banner 6: Re: Reserve fleets 7: Modelist Konstructor on Type 7U Destroyers 8: Apology 9: Re: Chinese Companies 10: The "Davy" 11: Re: discussion time again..hypothetical 12: Re: discussion time again..hypothetical 13: USN Slang 1941, P - R 14: Re: Trebuchets 15: Re: Last word on the "Chinese thing" 16: Re: Chinese Companies -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: discussion time again..hypothetical Good question!!! I had thought about maybe ARIZONA, LEXINGTON, but I think the ship I would really like to go back to would be the USS MONITOR during her engagement with the CSS VIRGINIA. I would like to look her over from stem to stern top to bottom, what a thrill that would be. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Subject: time machine ship visits one ship wouldn't do it for me... but top of my list would be to see Hornet CV-8, the Great Eastern, any flush deck 4-piper (though DD90 comes to mind), and any WWII config Essex class--though of course CV-12 is preferable if I had a choice. for Age of Sail, the Constitution newly launched and fitted out, and the 1775 Hornet--just because no plans or pictures are truly extant for this ship. for the truly fantastic: Nemo's Nautilus and Nelson's Seaview.... and needless to say, there's no point in ANY of these ship visits without a decent camera and an unlimited source of modern film.... (sez I after running out of film and then using up my buddy's film and STILL needing more during a whirlwind tour of BB North Carolina....) s. sachsen, archivist USS Hornet Museum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Steve Richards Subject: In defence of the Airfix Bismarck..!! yes ... true! read on..... Hi modellers, I have read a couple of reviews of the Airfix 1/600 Bismarck and would like to share my thoughts having just completed the kit myself. I built the kit because: a, I have fond memories of the model from when I was a lot younger! b, I particularly like the Airfix 1/600 range. c, Although my main interest is with RN vessels, I wanted to provide a comparison. For those who are keen to build a model that represents the real thing as much as possible, then the various criticisms of the Airfix kit are pertinent. However for those like myself who want a model that can clearly be identified as the Bismarck, and given the right painting, captures the look and "feel" of the real thing, then the Airfix Bismarck is fine. The only modification I made was to raise the level of the hull armour plating, add the aerial spreaders to the main mast and change the vertical positioning of the waterline. Apart from these, I built the kit "as is" and quite frankly I think when viewed from various angle it looks a good representation..... especially to the likes of me who admires the lines of a well proportioned ship more so than focussing on whether the turrets are 2mm too long! I do admire the intricate and detailed work of master modellers and their striving for accuracy, but I do wonder if the perfectionist attitude towards the hobby leads to frustration? I mean.. no 1/600 scale model is ever ever going to look exactly like the 1/1 master! I recall reading somewhere that Mark Twain said that focussing on too much detail of something one admires can lead to the adoption of a too-critical eye and thus spoil the appreciation of something. (i.e. take away the hidden mystery of the desired object.) To me, battleships were wonders of majesty and power. I reserve the right to build well made representations of them that please me and provide me with some 3 dimensional understanding of their appearance, but I also respect the simple fact that they were unique entities in their own right and no-one will ever, from a modelling point of view, create a model that satisfies the mystique and all the various impressions and imagery we have of them. Cheers... thanks for reading this! Steve Richards -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: misc chinese kits or anyone elses kits for that matter: If this chinese company did copy the Revell kit, why doesn't Revell or any other company sue or take legal action against this company or something. lets stop this fueding & a fussing & get back to models & ships. USS Arizona as is: there is a drawing of the Arizona all broken & bent in one of those large reference books that I think has been re-released.. & I have seen one excellent model done by an APMA member ..hey that's you Simon..so go have a gander at the APMA web page & then go to modellers pics & then look up Simon Wolf...ignore that trouble maker Andrew Jones, he doesn't make good models, lol RAN DDG Dragon kit: I thought HOBBYCO had 1 or 2 in their shop..im not sure if its Ikara, but you could make it towards the end of their careers when they didn't have Ikara's & they moved the Phalanx off the from behind the bridge..if I go there again,usually every 2 nd day or so I'll have a gander & post on the line here..Another shop might be Sherrifs @ Parramatta Andrew OZ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: IAAFru2@aol.com Subject: Re: Trumpeter/Banner >> Thirty years later, we have a company that, according to Mr. Mike Bass, has the capacity and money to make whatever kit is wanted by anyone, provided they think it is marketable and they have a CAD plan of it. Is that really a bad thing? << Look as I see it it's like this None, and I mean None of the other so called "Big Guys" wanted to or would tackle the 1:350 Arizona (Which by the way I have been wanting since I was 10, I'm 47now) I applaud Banner/Trumpeter for having the "BALLS" to TAKE ON THE BIG GUYS, how be it they may have Pirated some of the tecnology, unlike some of us out there, they realized their mistakes took the bull by the horn's kicked some butt, and designed some original stuff, while the other guys were reissuing their same old stale stuff. I challenge any of you others to do the same thing. GET IN THE RACE or BE LEFT BEHIND. IMHO George -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: IAAFru2@aol.com Subject: Re: Reserve fleets >> If I am the only one or do others have a mothballed collection too? << I have a fleet, and Air armada of unbuilt models does that count? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: Modelist Konstructor on Type 7U Destroyers Art As John Snyder said, this magazine is now out of print. However, you may be able to get copies from one of a couple of Russian suppliers: Aviapress ( http://www.aviapress.com ) have this issue listed as available as a special order only, at a price of $6.95. This means they will try and get a copy for you, but may not be successful. This firm appears to be reliable, but they do have a very long delivery time, especially for special orders. Armybook ( http://www.armybook.com ) also have this issue listed, at a price of $4.95. They are sometimes slow in updating their website, so you may want to check with them as to whether they actually have it in stock. This firm also seems to be pretty reliable. HTH. I have a copy of this issue, and it is worth getting. cheers Cliff Franklin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Apology Although I do stand by my first post about "Chinese Companies" I would like to apologise to Steve Wiper for incorrectly attributing to him the quotation about Chinese theft of US technology. It wasn't done in a bad faith but was caused by the fact that I was reading through quite a number of posts and got my notes mixed up. I do apologise unreservedly. D.Przezdziecki -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: IAAFru2@aol.com Subject: Re: Chinese Companies >> People put a lot of money into developing original products. That is why they get copyrights and patents. If you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop a product, should I be permitted to copy it so that I can "learn and earn" at your expense? It is wrong to steal the work that others have paid for, regardless of the purity of one's motives, and regardless of whatever wrong that you think that their country has done to you. << Ever Heard of GENERIC, this happens all the time in business, Hell the legitimate company could even have some one in their organization market the exact same product under a different name or product label. i.e. Pharmaceuticals (Drugs) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Barry and Angie Peters" Subject: The "Davy" Does anyone know where I can get info on the Davy; of British or possibly Dutch registry that sailed in the mid to late 1700's. Barry Peters -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Doug Wilde" Subject: Re: discussion time again..hypothetical Aboard the Spray to see if Slocum real drove the natives off with tacks strewn on the deck. Aboard the first Polynesian boat making landfall in the Hawaiian Islands. The Endurance. Turbinia at the Queen's Jubilee Oh alright, aboard Monitor at Hampton Roads Doug Wilde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Re: discussion time again..hypothetical Two candidates for a time travel visit immediately come to mind: HMS Beagle to watch Darwin first hand, and USS Charles Carroll to see what my father experienced in World War II. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER unique wood sculpture and fine scale models www.walruscarpenter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: John Snyder Subject: USN Slang 1941, P - R "Paint: first you put it on and then you chip it off." "Painter: ropes which tie a boat up." "Paluka: sometimes called a gumbo. NOT a pal." "your Part of the ship: a certain area reserved for you--to keep clean!" "Pie tickets: a green recruit who wishes pie must get pie tickets from the paymaster. Of course, the paymaster is out so the recruit starts a tour. Somewhere along the line comes a great awakening." "Pills: a hospital steward." "Pingpong: a yeoman or clerical man." [Now THAT's one I never heard as a Yeoman in the 1960s Navy.] "Plowmaker's Mate: an awkward recruit." "Pogey bait: candy bars." "Politician: avoids work by social manipulations." "Pollywog: one who has not crossed the Equator on water." "Pounding pitch: deck duty which requires constant walking." "Punk: light bread." "Quills: a yeoman or clerk." "Radiator Club: a gathering to gossip." "Rail Squad: seasick sailors executing an involuntary function of Nature." "Rear admiral: the wife in the back seat of an automobile (gosh, why can't she keep still?); or, the cute girl on the tandem seat of a motorcycle (are you all right back there, darling?)." "Red lead: ketchup." "Red Mike: woman hater." "Red rag: pennant flown during meals." "Regular Navy: not the Fleet Reserves, not the Coast Guard, not the Naval Reserves, but the Navy, you know, kid, THE NAVY." "Rewards: $50 for recovered torpedoes and deserters and $25 for stragglers. Also, virtue is its own reward. Well, I guess I was thinking of something else there...." "feeling Rhino: sad, blue, discouraged and broke." "Ripe suck: ripe sucker. An easy mark spoiling to be taken." "Rocks and Shoals: navy rules and regulations, or what will happen to you if you don't keep your nose clean." "Ropy yarn Sunday: a half holiday, usually Wednesday afternoon." Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models So John, do you and Caroline exchange roles as "Rear Admirals" then depending on whether the Miata or the Landrover is out ;-þ Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Trebuchets >> However, some peacekeeping seems to be desirable before the trebuchets are warmed up. << Aw, RATS! I was just getting started on cranking the windlass on mine, Rob! Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Re: Last word on the "Chinese thing" >> My comments about Trumpeter were not about the kits themselves, but about their business practices. By that, I mean the occurrence of the Banner kit of the Arizona. The kit was made by Trumpeter, but marketed under the one time name of Banner to get around the exclusive distribution right of the Trumpeter importer, Steven's International Dist. Marco Polo Importers brought the Banner AZ kit into the USA, not Steven's. That is not honest, plain and simple. I never tried to get a boycott against them, or ever said anything to that matter. << Once again, Wiper misses the mark. The Banner deal was **BEFORE** the exclusive deal Stevens made with them, Early September. We (AAA Hobby) have bought 50 Arizona kits (and sold 49) - all from Stevens except 6 from The Right Stuff which offered them a week earlier. The first 36 were Banner kits and I got and sold them long before the terrorist attacks and the restricted mail service in late September and October. The rest were a mix with 8 in the Banner box and 6 of the Trumpeter kits all coming from Stevens being in the Trumpeter box. I bought those mostly because I had a few collectors who wanted the different box for the box art which I personally liked better. Today, I can still buy the Banner kit from Stevens, or the Trumpeter kit, if I like. Mike Bass made his deal with the Trumpeter guys on or about September 9 - they were going home when they got stuck in NYC because of 9/11. The other name was not used to get around a deal that did not exist at the time, Marco Polo was simply trying to do what they do, import a kit and mark it up. Remember, at Chicago M&M had them at $40, IIRC (maybe more). When they finally came out on pre-sale various companies had them at different prices. By the time the kits were shipped, everybody except VLS had matched a lower price and the retail was set at $29.95 - VLS is still asking $34.95 and not selling many I have a feeling. (They'll be the place to go when nobody else has them!) Ask any single location retailer and they'll agree, selling 50 of any kit today is a good thing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Chinese Companies >> while I agree with many of your remarks, I am simply stunned and dumbfounded by the above. You are saying that it was right for Trumpeter to steal from someone else so that they could make money to stay in business while developing their own competing products? I cannot imagine how you can endorse theft whether it is done by Chinese or American companies. People put a lot of money into developing original products. That is why they get copyrights and patents. If you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop a product, should I be permitted to copy it so that I can "learn and earn" at your expense? It is wrong to steal the work that others have paid for, regardless of the purity of one's motives, and regardless of whatever wrong that you think that their country has done to you. << They did do because large scale emulation (not the same as copying) combined with tariffs is the only known way to build up a serious industrial economy when existing economies have the market advantage of large capital investment flows and economy of scale. Every existing industrial economy (ie including the US in the 1870-1900 period) did so for a time in their history in order to built up their economy. The only exception of course were the British as they were first with an advanced industrial economy.... The enforcement of rigid intellectuel property law and free trade regulations by existing industrial countries should be seen in this light. Pieter Cornelissen Delft The Netherlands BTW industrial copyright is not a simple matter. I'm researching it at the moment in connction with patent-on-life legislation which is very different but one of the interesting sides of patent legislation is that it theoretically encourages copying after the patents have lapsed in order to make industrial research more effective. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume