Subject: SMML VOL 1562 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:09:33 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Enjoying our hobby 2: Re: Italian Flags 3: Remains of the Admiral Graf Spee 4: USN Slang 1941, Last Installment 5: Re: Graf Spee 6: Re: Schooner Hannah 7: Museums in Seattle 8: Discussion about cheap kits / Question about GRAF SPEE 9: Victory rigging 10: Re: In defense of the Airfix Bismarck 11: Monitor vs Virginia Movie 12: Re: Museums 13: Arizona/ what ship would I be on? 14: Re: Banner/Trumpeter 15: Time machine 16: Where would I want to be 17: Re: Pinging 18: Re: Woodworking accuracy 19: misc 20: Re: Graf Spee 21: Re: Ship Wish List 22: Ace Plastics -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Trumpeter Sovremenny 2: 1/700 Hi-Molds Nagato -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: arthur w rohloff Subject: Re: Enjoying our hobby In regards to the comments by Axel Wolters, I agree with him whole heartedly. As a newcomer to this group, I have to admit that I am amused by the "debate" over modeling--isn't the bottom line, as Mr. Wolters states, having fun?! Who cares, outside of the model builder, what the finished product looks like, or whether it is "historically accurate"? I started building model WW II warships when I was 6 because my father had served in the navy, and because it was fun. I ended up building probably every Revell, Monogram, and other model out there, all for the purpose of playing with them in our basement, as I recreated battles and harbors out of my fervent imagination. I didn't care then whether they were historically accurate; I just wanted to bomb them (lima beans make great bombs!), and move them around my basement floor. Now I'm 40, and have just started building models again. I'm working my way slowly through the Tamiya 1/350 series (I wish there were more), with each one adding a bit more level of detail (current project is the Bismarck, and I could care less about what color the top of the turrets were--I just want the model to look good, for my own enjoyment). What I'm finding is that I just enjoy the process--and I'm sure it's the same for everyone out there. So whether you want every detail down to the last davit in the correct place, or just the kit out of the box, just enjoy it. At least for me, it's one of the ways I can still be that little kis down in the basement dropping bombs on battleship row (now where are those lima beans?!) Art Rohloff Winfield, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: Re: Italian Flags http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/iso3166.html Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://www.geocities.com/friedkappes/flagship.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Joel Labow Subject: Remains of the Admiral Graf Spee I was navigator of a USN DE on a UNITAS cruise in 1968. As of that date the location of the Graf Spee was clearly charted in the approaches to Montevideo. The Uraguayan (sp?) naval liaison told me that wreckage was visible at low tide...but nothing recognisable as a ship. Joel Labow Captain USN (ret'd) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Snyder Subject: USN Slang 1941, Last Installment "Tailor mades: dress blues made by a shore tailor." "Taking off: speaking up angry-like." "Tall water sailor: has sailed every ocean." "Three striper: a Commander." "Trimming: putting in extra hours trying for promotion." "Turn to: get on with the work." "the Tuscarora: a mythical ship with ideal conditions. Had thirteen decks, a straw bottom and rubber smoke stacks. Talked about to test the credulity of recruits." "Two and a half Striper: Lieutenant Commander." "Two Striper: Lieutenant." "Up all hammocks: cheery words to awaken sailors to the day's new tasks. Hit the deck is another shout of encouragement that brings a gob up bright and early full of gaiety and jollity and renewed vigor...." "shall we Up anchor: leave." "Wahini: a Honolulu maiden." "Wizard: a sailor who goes through a full cruise without being on report." "Wooden: dull." "Worms: macaroni." "the Y: the marine YMCA." And that's all there was in the book! Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Graf Spee The wreck of GRAF SPEE is indeed still on (mostly in) the bed of the River Plate estuary. The Uruguayan Navy salvaged one of her 5.9" secondary guns a few years back. I have the video that was broadcast on either the History Channel or Discovery Channel. It included some period newsreel footage that I'd never seen before, really showing her camouflage pattern well. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Re: Schooner Hannah I can't vouch for the accuracy, but Amati makes a 1:70 scale kit that has a resin hull with wood and metal for the rest of the parts, plus rigging and sail cloth. Model Expo carries it for $89.99 US. According to THE HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN SAILING NAVY, "The vessels fitted out by General Washington were probably Marblehead fishermen and were named Franklin, Harrison, Hancock, and Lynch; their original names do not appear. Probably one of these was the Hannah, for which some New Englanders claim the honor of being the first American Navy ship." The book also includes hull lines, plan and elevation of the Hancock, which should also be pretty close for Hannah. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER unique wood sculpture and fine scale models www.walruscarpenter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Museums in Seattle Robert, If you are staying in Seattle, take the ferry to Bremerton. The city of Bremerton has a destroyer, the " Turner Joy" [Tomkin Gulf fame] as well as a small museum at the Bremerton ferry dock. The real thrill is to take one of the small water taxi craft from the same dock for a water side tour of the Bremerton Navy Yard. They have many mothballed aircraft carriers as well as some cruisers and subs. They also have one of the largest "Hammerhead" cranes in existence. The "captains" of these small craft are very knowledgable. The last trip I made was with my grandkids. The "captain" showed them the truncated attack subs. These subs were cut apart - the center section containing the nuclear power plant sections removed and transported to by barge to Hanford, WA. The two remaining sections were welded back together and these weird subs are just moored to a dock and rusting away. On the Seattle waterfront there is a Coast Guard Museum and a special commercial shipping museum that are good.. Boeing has a museum of aircraft south od Seattle in Renton. The weather changes in March and April to warm days 70 t0 80 degrees and cool nights 55 to 60 degrees with little to no rain until October. Regards, John Kutina -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Axel Wolters" Subject: Discussion about cheap kits / Question about GRAF SPEE Hi D.P, sorry, I didnt want to get my statement missunderstood. Maybe my way to express the thougths of my german brain in english words was not totally clear. I feel the same as D.P. stated in his answer and I just wanted to say the same. Sorry for confusing you. Ref. Graeme Martins question about "Graf Spee". Interestingly not very long ago there was a TV story in one of the german regional broadcasts about a diving excursion to the wreck of the "Pocket battleship" Admiral Graf Spee. Unfortunately one could not see very much, because the water of the La Plata River is so muddy. There are no remains to see above the water, because all higher extremities of the ship collapsed or were removed (as far as I know, the was NO salvage or wreckage company orderd to remove the remains of the ship, so most of the upper structure collapsed). The remains of the wreck are still there. The rest of the film told about the families of the crew members, who stayed in Chile after WW II and married women from Chile. Also there was shown a meeting of still surviving crewmembers and the notice that these become fewer and fewer because of their age. It also show the integration of these people into the local way of life still keeping a few german traditions (celebrating christmas for example). Finally there was shon a cemetry, where a lot of crew members are burried. For a ship lover and kit builder, the film showed too few technical things, it was more a complete story about the human aspects. Axel Wolters -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Jean-Pierre Coddron" Subject: Victory rigging 2 remarks on the rigging of this ship The main difficulty is indeed the amount of work involved. Yet the Heller instructions are pretty complete and if you take it step by step, you will soon notice that is is not as intricate as it looks. Another difficulty is the plastic masts. Great care should be taken not to bend them out of shape while pulling the lines taut: the rule is: just pull the line until the slack is removed. The bowsprit extension (however you call it should nevertheless be replaced by a wooden or even better, a metallic item, because this item is really too thin to withstand the pulling of the many lines and sails that are fastened to it. I actually used the plastic bowsprit and somehow managed to have it stay rigid, but afterwards, some cleaning lady... You know the story. Happy modelling. The result is great. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Chuck Messer" Subject: Re: In defense of the Airfix Bismarck >> The newer Monogram 1/617-scale kit (as Chuck mentioned) is the best of the three but a little small for a 1/600 scale fleet. << Actually, the difference is less than 3%. Many kits are accurate within that margin, and is quite acceptable to me. There are problems with the kit, but it can make a good starting place. Especially if one wants to try some simple, inexpensive scratch-building techniques. Chuck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Jim Johnson" Subject: Monitor vs Virginia Movie Phil Lord stated that he would love to see a modern movie about the USS Monitor vs the CSS Virginia battle. There was one not to long ago. It was a made for TV movie. I don't recall for sure, but I think it was on TNT. There was the boy/girl sub plot, but it didn't get in the way of the good stuff. It was authentic to my semi expert eyes. If you could find a copy, it is worth the effort to obtain. HTH Jim Johnson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bill Rowe Subject: Re: Museums Here is the link to virtual musuems: http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/icom/vlmp/usa.html Most, or all, have a physical presence too. The Museum of Flight in Seattle is excellent. Bill -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "john fiebke" ubject: Arizona/ what ship would I be on? >> The 1/350 Arizona kit has -never- appeared in a Trumpeter box. << If I recall correctly, mine says Trumpeter on the side. I remember looking at the two boxes side by side in the hobby-shop. My 1/700 Arizona is a mini-hobby kit. And I think its kind of odd that most of us want to be on ships that were either blown out of the water or sank by other means (Hunley, Titanic.). I would hazard a guess that anybody on any of these ships, if given the choice, would have chosen to be ANYWHERE but where they were. I'd say I want to be on the Enterprise Dec.6 1941 so I could tell them to speed towards pearl and show them where the 6 Japanese carriers would be and when they were launching the planes so I could tell them how Japanese carriers don't take well to being bombed with armed and fueled planes all over the flight deck....but then you get into the whole thing about "Well, if the battleships aren't sunk, what happens when we try to fight the pacific war with the outdated weapons of the last? Would we lose? " And what if I change history so much that somehow my grandfather is killed before I'm born? (I've been reading Steven Hawking). Ouch, my head hurts. Actually, i'm enjoying this thread and just being stupid. Carry on! John F -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Re: Banner/Trumpeter George (IAAFru2@aol.com) wrote: >> Does anyone know if Trumpeter/Banner plans to release any more of the "Pearl Harbor" Battleships? << The Trumpeter 2002/2003 product announcement did not include any additional Pearl Harbor battleships. It did include several 1:350 scale carriers which are greatly anticipated. >> ... I cannot afford the "Resin" (Which are only for rich people) ... << Resin kit's, while more expensive than their styrene cousins, are not only for rich people. If they are - where do I sign up to be rich? Resin kits are generally more accurate - and by the time you figure in your time required to "fix" many styrene companys' errors - may be more economical. Often they include the brass as part of the kit - and save you the cost of purchasing these details separately. I strongly urge you to go and look at some of the Iron Shipwright offerings of patrol craft, amphibs, destroyers, and auxilliaries which run less than 100 bucks. Don't write off resin as being only for the rich without examining the beneficial features of the medium. >> I look forward to manufactures like Banner/Trumpeter to release the kits I have or can only dream about. << If you limit yourself to styrene ... sweet dreams! Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Time machine Me? I'd want to go back in time maybe an hour or two, just so I could remember where I left my glasses. (sigh) Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Nautical Research Guild -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Rick Lundin" Subject: Where would I want to be I would like to be aboard a destroyer when DesRon 23 fought in throughout the Solomons in 1943. I remember lines from the Jimmy Buffett song "Sending the Old Man Home" ..... "out in the Pacific they say he was the best, now he's in his civvies heading home like all the rest" .... The issue in the Pacific was still very much undecided in 1943 and the U.S. Navy was regularly going up against the best night fighting destroyer sailors in the world. Better technology and still better sailors caused the USN ultimately to prevail during "those sleepless nights he fought upon the sea". We can never go back to those days but we can still remember those sailors with the respect and admiration they earned: " ...... let's drink to their memory. Our heroes and our pals, to those crazy Navy fliers. to those swell Hawaiian gals ......... " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Re: Pinging >> Ummm, no, it was used in the surface Navy in the mid-1960s, so it's not just a sub word. As for it being left out of the list--remember, this is transcribed from a 1941 book, and "pinging" just wasn't part of the USN vocabulary then." << Actually a "pingjockey" was/is a sonarman on the boats. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Mike Dassele" Subject: Re: Woodworking accuracy >> In a trade or hobby such as woodworking where accuracy is not critical (one does not have to work too tolerances of even hundredths of an inch), << Robert, I'm a little curious what kind of woodworking you are talking about. Do you mean "carpentry" and not "woodworking" which I think connotes "cabinetmaking" I'm a hobby woodworker, and accuracy is crucial in edge joining, dovetailing, mortise and tenon joinery. Ever try to cut an accurate 45 degree miter? A hundredth of an inch error in either plane multiplied by 4 results in a pretty shoddy looking picture frame. I just wanted to defend the woodworking trade and hobby a bit. Forgive my rant :-) Mike Dassele -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: misc Graf Spee: I thought they scrapped as much as they could but left her hulk in the harbour & I do re-call reading somewehere that part of her hull does show thru during certain tides. The uraguyan Govt did place some the Spee's secondary weapons as a monument to the fallen german sailors buried or was it the country across the plate? & what would be left of her wouldn't be much after the explosions & the sea salt eg Arizona.. here's a little info I got from the graf spee web site: "On the British side River Plate and Ajax Veterans still celebrate the comradeship that evolved from the Battle. A thriving Canadian town carries the name "Ajax" in honor of the flagship of the British cruisers. Ajax, Ontario has named many streets as a living memorial to veteran officers and men who manned the British cruisers. In 1999, a proposal to add Captain Langsdorff's name to the program was unanimously supported by the British veterans" though they had pictures of the hull, only of the graves & the small deck guns as monuments Hypotheticals: well seems that many people would love to see their dads in action. & a few antique sailors out there..oh gee Peter, wear a head to toe flak jacket! where's the spirit of adventure the metal parts flying thru the air the close calls ..beter yet an armoured suit would sound pretty darn nice! Ticonderoga: Well all ships were armed with torpedo tubes & I remember on a few visits I went on..the sailors were saying that torpedo tuibes were going to be taken off cruisers & maybe destroyers as anti-sub work is mainly for helo's & that the ship would use its sonar & allow the helo to do the kill...which I thinkis pretty silly , what happens if the helo crashes & no other is available! too bad they don't have invented an anti -torpedo torpedo, I know the russian & the Italins use little rockets in those circular mounts also I think they are used like the old hedgehog/limbo anti sub role , but why not a sound seeking anti torpedo torpedo. well anyhow.. 20mm I thought they were using a modified bush master 25mm gun simlar to that used in LAV-25's ..so maybe whats happened thay have taken the torp tubes off cruisers as told about..the 25mm or 20mm is supposed to be used in close combat against small boats & mines..this was told to me by a US sailor when a dstroyer or cruiser visited sydney & I guess if anyone is good enough & excellent eye sight maybe a anti-ship missile , but due to the confines of the Gulf etc they felt that they had little of no defense against enemy agents with small speed boats or mines that were not swept by the mine sweepers Women in SMML: not looking for date or am I hmm lol, just noticed had we had an item from a woman here..it would be interesting to know how many woman are members..just so we cant call ourself a male dominated hobby list!, lol well keep up the good work all & have a good weekend! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: ken.p.lemaster@exxonmobil.com Subject: Re: Graf Spee I remember a video on PBS, but I do not remember the year, where someone was bringing up one of the guns from the Graf Spee. I believe that the video was aired within the last 3-4 years. There was some underwater footage, but again, my memory is not too good about what was still visable and since the local PBS station is airing a lot of older videos, the actual time when the gun was brought up could have been some time ago. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Ship Wish List But first, the rationale! I like battleships in general for their survival past their usefulness, and battlecruisers especially as ultimate expressions of same. I have large scale models of many WWII BBs, and would like to add, preferably in 1/350: -- Second the Littorio motion -- A better Vanguard -- Better Nagato -- Alaska -- Nevada 44 (usually I don't count WWI, but why be consistent?) -- OK, a South Dakota to complete the set (Already have Washington, Missouri, PoW, Nelson, Tirpitz, Gniesenau, Scheer, Strasbourg, Jean Bart, Yamato. Some even built.) And my vote for the most ridiculous extension of the whole battlecruiser concept, besides they look nice: -- Courageous/Glorious (but Furious is ugly) (And don't tell me they weren't battlecruisers. I've heard it all before, I don't agree, and neither does John Roberts, so there. :-) ) Allan Plumb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Ace Plastics Need some help: does anyone know the e-mail address of Ace Plastics {think it is in Arizona} as I need some resin casting material. Also, if you have used their material do the molds hold up for multiple castings without tearing? Thank you. John Kutina - Seattle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Trumpeter Sovremenny Hi All, It has come to our attention that the main battery turret in the Trumpeter 1/200 Sovremenny kit is wrong. Fortunately, it came to the attention of our master pattern maker, Peter Hall when he built his kit. The result is that Peter built a correct turret for his model, and that corrected turret is now entering production as a new WEM Pro item: WEM Pro 2001, which may be available as soon as six weeks from now. Pre-orders being cheerfully accepted.... Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Bill Gruner Subject: 1/700 Hi-Molds Nagato We have made a special order for 10 of the Hi-Molds (Japan) 1/700 Japanese battleship Nagato. This superb resin kit is the best kit of the Nagato made, and several of our customers have asked us to order some. Pitroad required a 10-kit minimum order. They should arrive in a week or 2, and we are taking reservations now. Price will be $115.00 + $8.00 shipping domestic. We will probably not be ordering these kits again for several months. We hope to have our new website, complete with secure online ordering, up and running in about 2 weeks. Thanks, Bill Gruner Paciic Front Hobbies http://www.pacificfront.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume