Subject: SMML VOL 1566 Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:01:35 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: South Dakota Class BB 2: Re: pinging 3: Magazine index 4: Re: No USS Arizona from Trumpeter 5: Black Caulking 6: Re: Pinging 7: Enjoying the hobby 8: figures 9: Best color matchs for current USN hull & deck? 10: Indian type 41 Frigates 11: Re: enjoying our hobby 12: Badger Modelflex Marine Paints 13: Re: deck decals 14: Re: Bader Model Flex Paints 15: Re: Battlecruisers 16: First resin kit 17: Wooden Decks 18: USS Trigger model by Marine Model Company, Inc. 19: Re: Pinging 20: Scam Warning!! 21: Re: deck decals 22: Re: wood deck decals 23: Eagles 24: Re: Deck Planking 25: HP release list query 26: Graf Spee Doco 27: Re: Enjoying our hobby -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: AJOWENS@aol.com Subject: South Dakota Class BB Hi Mark The Alabama would be your best choice for a BB-59 - SoDak has one less 5" mount per side but there's a bit of work that should be done to either. I made a BB-59 from the Hasegawa Alabama and there's photos of it on the smml site. If you're near New England, visit the ship and shoot a bunch of photos (if you're not there are some good shots online at www.steelnavy.com too). I added some support bracing and platforms to mine from the photos I shot. Cheers! A.J. Owens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: royrichey@att.net Subject: Re: pinging On the old FRAM I's ping jockeys were also sometimes refered to as snipe radarmen, they were stuck in the hole behind CIC. Do you know the difference between a sonarman and an idiot? An idiot makes babbling sounds, a sonarman makes babbling sounds, and then listens for an echo. The hole in the back does that to you. Roy former STG1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: ELLshipmodeler@aol.com Subject: Magazine index In reference to the Model Ship Journal index mentioned by Victor Baca on SMML, wouldn't it be nice if ALL the model magazines provided on line a complete index of all back issues, kept up to date as each new issue is published. The format should be standardized so they could all be downloaded and placed into one consolidated index which could then be searched for a desired subject, such as painting, a vessel name, filler materials, etc. An annual index is better than nothing, but they become lost if not bound in the magazine, and then each of those have to be searched. Wishful thinking? Gene Larson Alexandria, Virginia Member, NRG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Re: No USS Arizona from Trumpeter >> Sorry, but I saw several on e-Bay when they first came out. PS: e-Bay is currently running item # 1709494779 USS Arizona from Trumpeter << Look at the photo. In the lower right hand corner you will see the Mini Hobby Model logo. Where does the BOX say Trumpeter? The seller even says it is a MHM kit - 5th word in the description - but then he erroneously put Trumpeter in the description and banner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Rod Dauteuil" Subject: Black Caulking >> As for those black lines of caulking, try a sharp pencil or a thin grey wash.<< Why not paint the whole deck black to begin with, then drybrush on the color of your planking? I do that with my model RR structures (loading docks, plank floors, etc.) and the effect works just fine in 1/87. I can't see where in the scales of 1/350 or smaller it would come out any different. Rod -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Pinging Bill Veigele, I would have to disagree with you on boats not having Sonarmen. Sonar is very important to subs. Mike Donegan NAVYDAZE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "william k code" Subject: Enjoying the hobby Interesting discussion about building straight from the box for the fun of it or superdetailing or scratch building a museum piece.. I'm at the level were I do allot of added detail work to kits..Soon I hope to scratch my first bread and butter hull.. SMS Defflinger in 1/350. and kit bash a Konig for turrets and other small parts.. I find its all good! Hellers Victory has been quite a chore.. around 2500 parts to which I added another 2500 or so.. I plan to set her aside soon and built WSW 1/700 Defflinger straight from the box, or heaven forbid an aircraft kit of somekind. I still love a simple kit that falls easily together.They are a wonderful change of pace from poring over plans with dividers .. Its the journey not the destination that matters.. I remember a hobby show where someone brought a Lindberg Hood to compete ...He had lavished many hours of toil to make her look good. talk about turning a sows ear into a silk purse..She was a little short in the hull but still a site to behold. All we shipmodellers gathered round to praise his work. For him it was the journey to turn a toy into a shipmodel.. regards to all Bill Code -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Ron Wild" Subject: figures Does anyone know of a source for 1/96 figures? I'm looking for modern (wwII) Royal Navy sailors as well as passengers. I've tried 1/87 model railroad people and these are OK if they are sitting down but if you stand them next to the rail it's obvious they are out of scale. Ron Wild Kelowna BC Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: David Sepos Subject: Best color matchs for current USN hull & deck? Greetings! To anyone using Testor's Model Master enamels, what's close or any "secret formulas" out there? No need for a dissertation, just wondering what others are using for starters. Thanks. Regards, Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Subject: Indian type 41 Frigates >> Anyone interested in these? I've just been playing with a new toy, a film scanner and trying it out on some old Black and White negatives I'd just un-earthed. I found a series of shots I took in 1985 of three Indian Type 41's leaving Mina Qaboos, Oman. I managed to ID the series using Conway's Fighting Ships, but this throws up an anomaly as it states the three Indian 41's were F31, Brahmaputra; F37, Beas; and F38, Betwa; whereas two of the photo's are of a 41 carrying the Pennant no. F39, very clear in one shot. Anyone know what this one was called? or is Betwa's Pennant no mistyped in my Conway Book? It's not entirely accurate as it only notes Brahmaputra as having the rear 4.5" twin mount removed and a large deckhouse classroom being added, but all 3 were identical when these photo's were taken (I thought it was just one until I looked closer at the Pennant no's !) For anyone interested I've posted the pics on alt.binaries.pictures.military. << G 'day India had three type 41s. Combat Fleets 1984/85 lists Brahmaputra F31, Beas F37 and Betwa F38, but photo on page 341 clearly shows P.No. F137 with caption Beas. To add further confusion earlier edition of Janes (1970) shows picture Betwa with F139, also refers to Beas F137, but Brahmaputra then as F31. So with the P.No. changes guess your F39 could have been Betwa. According to notes all three had after 114 mm twin mounts replaced by accomm. deckhouses and operated in Cadet Training role. Alastair McIntosh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: arthur w rohloff Subject: Re: enjoying our hobby I certainly don't disagree with any of the comments that Mr. Pasquill has with my original note--except to say that the reason that I subscribed to this list was for information, advice, and the expertise which many of you have that I don't. I find it admirable that many modelers are so passionate about their craft, that they take the time and energy to make their models as beautiful and accurate as they are (my god, I love looking at the photos!), and that they have the skills, built up through time and practice, to produce these models. My point was simply that there are a wide and varied range of modelers out there, with many interests and skill levels, and I certainly hope that those whose expertise and goals are above mine will accept the fact that I may be quite content with a "lesser" model. But enough of that--what I really need is advice. I am going to make my first resin kit (Commander Series Models USS Hull (DD-350) 1944, 1/350 scale, which I am converting into the USS Farragut (DD-348), which was my dad's 1st destroyer). Even though I've loked at books, etc, what are your suggestions for priming and painting a resin hull, the component parts, and the photoetched extras?! And I'll throw in my 2 cents on the wish list for ships--more plastic WW II in 1/350! You may not have to be rich to build resin, but $800 for the Lexington?! I'd love to build her, but I can build a lot of plastic for $800! Art Rohloff Winfield, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Badger Modelflex Marine Paints >> Has anyone used the Badger Model-Flex acrylic marine paints on their models, and with what results? I want to use this fast drying paint, but have little experience with it. I'm wondering, if like with Tamiya acrylics, there's a long curing period before it's safe to apply a sealing agent like Future - Tamiya takes forever to cure and applying a sealing coat before it's truly dry can have disastrous results. Can someone pass on some suggestions? << Doug: I can answer your questions about the Modelflex Marine paints as I am the developer of the line of marine paints for Badger. I started using the Modelflex RR colors on my boat models when the Floquil marine paints became hard to get. I fell in love with the ease of use and the coverage of the paints. I tried all the other available acrylics and found that the Modelflex paints were the only ones I could use reliably w/o resorting to all sorts of witchcraft and various alcohols, windshield washer fluid and other stuff to get them to spay. I settled on the Modelflex paints and picked colors from the RR line that matched my needs for my boat models. I was very happy that I didn't need a heavy duty respirator any more and my wife never complained about the odor like she did every time I sprayed a bit of solvent based paints. When I found out Floquil marine paints were eliminated from the floquil line after their purchase by Testor's I called Badger and talked to their Sales Manager, Jan Myers who I had recently met at a r/c boat club meeting where she showed us the Badger air brushes and had used the RR colors when demonstrating the brushes. I suggested to Jan that Badger consider developing a line of marine colors based on the RR colors and formula for paints. A few weeks later Jan asked me to meet with her and the President of Badger and they asked me to develop this line of paints for them based on their proven paint formula. I proceeded to develop the present line of 52 colors and Badger has put them on the market, though distribution is just now getting to be good enough so that there are an adequate number of sources for the paints. The paint does dry very quickly. The official Badger line is that it can be masked over in as little as 1/2 hour without danger of lifting the paint (this is using a good automotive type tape) and I have done this myself many times when it is a simple job. I tend to wait a full hour if it is a critical job but I am super cautious this way. The paints can be sealed with either Badger's gloss, matt or dull clear coats or Future floor wax within the hour without problems. I have done it myself many times. The paints are all a matt finish (in the marine line - some of the RR colors are a gloss but are so labeled) and the Future wax is needed if you plan to use decals. I have then used the Badger matt or flat clear coats over the Future when I wanted a dull or matt finish. Recently did a Corvette (car) for a friend and applied several coats of Future the same day. What a shine! The quick drying of the Modelflex (and all acrylics to some extent) paint can cause some slight problems when airbrushing. You must pause every few minutes to flick off the dried paint at the tip of the airbrush nozzle. Use your fingernail or a moistened Q-tip to remove the bit of dried paint that if left to accumulate will cause problems. I use between 12 and 20 psi with a 360 model airbrush and a bit less with the Sotar 20/20 model. Always use a moisture trap in-line. Also, do not thin the Modelflex paints as they are airbrush ready as they come. If there ever is a need to thin the paints use distilled water - no need for alcohol's, windshield washer fluid and other stuff we have had to resort to when using other brands of acrylics. I hope this answers your questions. Don't hesitate to contact me at any time. Take care, Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL NRG member -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Tom Kremer Subject: Re: deck decals >> At the very least, if the black calking lines were reproduced on decal sheets, you could blend the deck sections together, paint the deck your choice of color, then apply the calking decal for a super deck << A quarter inch caulking seam would scale down to less than 1/1000 of an inch in 1/350 scale, which I'm not sure is technically possible. Is it worth it to go to a lot of trouble to add a feature that will only be way out of scale? Tom K -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Devin J. Poore" Subject: Re: Bader Model Flex Paints I use the Model Flex line of paints almost exclusively. Get yourself a set of the Snyder and Short color chips to verify the colors (I've had one or two bottles that were WAY off at various times), but I generally find that they are accurate matches, or easily fixable with minimal mixing. I love the way these paints airbrush (thin about 3:2 with rubbing alcohol, and add a drop of extender) and also they brush paint very well. I used them on the USS Farenholt kit that I built, and while it was my first resin kit and there are some construction problems with the model, I was very pleased with the way that the paint finish turned out (http://users.rcn.com/devinj/farenholt.htm). Devin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Michael London" Subject: Re: Battlecruisers The first battlecruisers, the British INVINCIBLE and INDEFATIGABLE Classes, were at first classed as armoured cruisers and it was not until just before WW 1 that the term battle cruiser (two words) was used. This was about the time that the LION Class was coming into service and, for the first time, exceeded their contemporary battleships in size. The two word nomenclature continued in use until at least WW 2, Parkes British Battleships as well as Jane's using it throughout. Even today we occasionally see the two word variation on what is now the more common single word. Which reminds me of a story. When Queen Mary was visiting the fleet early in WW 1 she asked her accompanying naval officer the name of the large ship anchored nearby. "That is HMS Lion, ma'am. They call her class the 'big cats'".Oh," asked the queen", what are the others in her class called?". "Queen Mary and Princess Royal, ma'am" was the truthful but unfortunate reply. We will never know if she already knew this and had asked the question with perhaps a little twinkle in her eye. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Barry and Angie Peters" Subject: First resin kit Hi, I'm coming back to your great hobby after some forty-five year absence and was wondering what your recommendation would be for my first model. I am most familiar with wooden tall ships but open to all model types. Your SMML interchange was instrumental in bringing me back to the hobby. A great hobbiest tool! Thanks for your help. Barry Peters -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Graeme Martin Subject: Wooden Decks This may not help the original writer who was asking about wooden deck decals. But I build scratch built ocean liners and battleships at 1:200 scale. Like the card models on sale I have produced in my apple mac computer on Quark software A3 pages of a slab of colour, say PMS 144 tinted down to 30% giving me a timber colour that is generic, then I overlay 0.2 thick black lines one millimetre apart and have the whole thing printed out on a high end printer for sharpness etc. I also use a heavier weight of good quality paper, at least 175 gsm. (you $500 Epson wont cut the ice!) Spray the sheets matt varnish for some protection and adhere them to the basic deck of the model with a non solvent type glue all the while protecting them from other glue drops like super glue. It's not perfect and it's not totally accurate. But it does give a very good facsimile. If you want you can take the whole process further by shaping the part of the ship, (ie. the quarterdeck) to your model in the computer and cutting in the individual timbers along the edge of the deck as they did on the original. This of course shows up better on a larger scale model. Graeme Martin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Eleanor Mazza" Subject: USS Trigger model by Marine Model Company, Inc. Tom Dougherty, I have been looking for an unbuilt model of the USS Trigger for some time. I think the price new was about $40.00. Unfortunately, I did not buy one at the time. Are you willing to sell yours? Matthew F. Mazza -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Pinging >> Sonarmen were not on boats. They were on ships. They served on cruisers, destroyers, destroyer escorts, frigates, PCs, SCs, and various other patrol and subchaser ships. << Uh, Bill? I don't believe I said anything about boats. My post was: "Whereas--at least in the 1960s Navy--Sonarmen and Radarmen in the surface fleet were collectively lumped together as 'Scope Dopes.'" Also, I think you'll find that Sonarmen have served in US subs ("boats") since at least late WW2 when FM sonar was fitted to allow penetration of Japanese minefields. They still serve in "boats." Best, John Snyder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: John Snyder Subject: Scam Warning!! Recently we had a query from a modeller regarding a supposed 1/350 resin kit of USS JOHN F. KENNEDY being produced here in the UK. To make a long story short, the whole thing is bogus and there is someone out there defrauding unsuspecting modellers of large chunks of change. The modeller who was taken on the KENNEDY posted the following on another list, and since there is purported link to WEM, we wanted to pass it along verbatim here: >> Hi all, I just wanted to drop a warning out to everyone to be on the watch for a guy who uses the username modelerus. He also goes by Richard. He appears to join groups and then he emails members offering to sell them one of a kind kits or limited editions of that one kit you so desperately want. I have fallen for his scheme and have been emailed by another gentleman who said he contacted him about buying a 1/350 scale Resin Coral Sea. He asked the guy where it came from and he said he worked for WEM and left to start his own biz and took the head designer of WEM with him. These ships are limited edition runs to test the market he claimed. Well I have confirmed that this gentleman(to be kind here) never worked for John and Caroline at WEM nor did he steal their top designer. Please do not form any type of bond between him and WEM as there are none. This is to inform you that he may use them to help his "item" sound more authentic. He may be using more groups and sites then just the one so be careful if you post a major want and someone offers you a kit that seems to hard to believe. It most likely is. Jeff J << Jeff told us he was taken for 210 Pounds (about $320). So, for those of you who remember the old Hill Street Blues series: "Let's be careful out there." Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: deck decals >> I have been experimenting with making deck decals, Have produced several different kinds. I was planing to use one of the Arizona if and when I find the time. << Bob: are you talking about a sheet of decal material with a deck pattern printed on it?? Won't that look rather fake - like contact paper?? Also how will you attach deck fittings and furniture?? You can't really glue to the decal - any stress will just pull it off. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Jim Johnson" Subject: Re: wood deck decals True, putting a decal representing a wood deck would not be a easy. But, since when is it easy to paint a deck, then mask it so you can spray all the nik-naks on the deck. Or have you ever tried to paint ship, then mask all the little bumps and stuff to paint the deck. I'll take putting a decal on if given a choice. Who ever said modeling was easy? You would have to either sand down the woodgrain or fill it in before you put the decal on. It wouldn't be easy, but it could be done before any assembly of the kit is undertaken. Or you could cut a new deck from sheet styrene. You would have to transfer the fittings that were molded on to the new deck or scratch build new ones. If the decals were only of the calked lines, the color wouldn't matter. The modeler could paint the wood any color they would want. If you go down to the nearest marina and look at the pleasure boats, you would have trouble finding any two shades of wood that were the same. If the plank pattern was put over the flat, painted deck, a very nice effect could be effected. You can purchase wing inspar anti-corrosion panels for airliners in three different shades. I would think that printing different shades of a decal would not be a huge problem for a decal manufacturer. You could print a teak sheet, a cypress sheet and a pine sheet by using different inks to print the same pattern. Ship modelers probably don't have a lot of experience with decals. In the world of 1/43 scale cars, the standard is to paint the body of the car with an aerosol touch-up paint, then all the rest of the colors and markings are on the decal sheet. Airplane modelers use extensive decals on some of their models. Once you get used to them, well made decals are not difficult to handle. There are decal manufacturers that make decals of the carbon fiber areas of race cars. They couldn't be any harder to put on that a deck planking decal for a ship. I would love to try anyway. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: JohnBassman1@cs.com Subject: Eagles hi, does anybody out there manufacture 1/32 scale eagles for my r/c tugboats.or any scale thanks @yours truly, john -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Hank Lapa" Subject: Re: Deck Planking Wait a minute, here. Black lines between the planks is okay for wooden ships, where the deck was caulked to make it watertight. On steel ships, the planks are laid over a steel deck, and (I'm pretty sure) are butted up tight to each other. Other than some fairly subtle variation between individual chumks of wood, there should not be any visible demarcations, especiale at "scale distance." That said, it's easy to use blank decal paper and any graphics program that will draw parallel lines to print up a whole sheet of stripes. Then you could use a technical pen for the little perpendicular plank ends. That, too, said, I quite successfully used a technical pen it ink in the black lines on the deck of Heller's VICTORY. For raised plank lines, an old Revell suggested painting the decks black, then wood color, then sanding gently to bring back the black caulking. I tired it on their big CONSTITUTION long, long ago, and was happy with the result. Or how about buying a piece of appropriate wood veneer and drawing lines on it with a technical pen, especially in large scales. And how about simply buying some scored Plastruct (or score your own) in a size big enough for the whole deck length, then cutting free the superstructure and other details from the split kit deck to put on top? I'm thinking about that for the Revell GREAT EASTERN. Regards, Hank -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: HP release list query I see from the updated lists for HP Models on the NNT website that HP have an adventurous list of kits, especially British. These include the five QE and 5 "R" class batlleships, and between British and Polish ships the entire "D" class cruisers and "G" class destroyers, plus the pre-war carriers still in service at 1939 except Argus. They also list a "Projekt 1934 Aircraft Carrier". This one has me stumped. Ideas / enlightenment? Whilst WEM does an excellent PE set covering the entire QE class we need PE sets for the Rs, Ds and Gs, not to mention the carriers! WEM? TOMS? others? John Sutherland Wellington New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Simon Wolff" Subject: Graf Spee Doco Hi y'all!! That Discovery Channel program on the Graf Spee was filmed in 1997, it was made for the Learning Channel. At the end of it they show an impressive computer generated picture of how she looks today, below the water and over at an angle. The historical footage is excellent and the shots taken in Montevideo harbour show the camouflage scheme rather well. The show was shown on the Discovery Channel here in Australia in 2000. Simon Wolff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Re: Enjoying our hobby >> In regards to the comments by Axel Wolters, I agree with him whole heartedly. As a newcomer to this group, I have to admit that I am amused by the "debate" over modeling--isn't the bottom line, as Mr. Wolters states, having fun?! Who cares, outside of the model builder, what the finished product looks like, or whether it is "historically accurate"? I started building model WW II warships when I was 6 because my father had served in the navy, and because it was fun. I ended up building probably every Revell, Monogram, and other model out there, all for the purpose of playing with them in our basement, as I recreated battles and harbors out of my fervent imagination. I didn't care then whether they were historically accurate; I just wanted to bomb them (lima beans make great bombs!), and move them around my basement floor. . . . So whether you want every detail down to the last davit in the correct place, or just the kit out of the box, just enjoy it. At least for me, it's one of the ways I can still be that little kis down in the basement dropping bombs on battleship row (now where are those lima beans?!) Bravo Mr. Rohloff...It's easy to get caught up in the feeling that everything's gotta be perfect and accurate etc. For me at least the hobby becomes a stress not a hobby. I Build 'em for fun.... << I have been watching this forum for the past year and have thoroughly enjoyed the conversations, views and absolute knowledge expressed by the various contributors. But, when I read the posting by A.W. Rohloff I was completely overjoyed to see that someone could eloquently express the view of enjoying modeling purely for the sake of having fun. Good for you Mr. Rohloff, I second your opinion and endorse your views. I believe that there is a place for each and everyone of us who models for history and fun. I model for fun . . . whether you also model for fun or model accuracy, good for you. This genre needs all flavors of people. Rohloff is one, I am another and you are the others. I honestly request that anyone who builds for pleasure respond to A.W.'s message. It would be nice to have an estimate of the number of people who ship modeling just for fun. Unfortunately this forum has been infected by a small number of people who feel intimidated by nick names and AOL handles. Even though their influence is strong, I hope that it is not the deciding factor for the people who really enjoy writing to, and reading, this forum. Write On! Best Regards, RhinoBones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume