Subject: SMML VOL 1581 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:13:02 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Digital vs Hardcopy 2: Re: show me the money... 3: Writing for free on the web and elsewhere 4: Re: Show Me the Money ... 5: Re: Show me the money.. 6: misc 7: 1:700 Resin Aftermarket Parts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: For Sale 1/350 USS Ingersoll -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Jim Kloek" Subject: Digital vs Hardcopy Victor, I agree completely with your point about the permanence, or lack thereof, of digital files or records. Years ago I used to do my spreadsheet work on Lotus 123 from DOS as the operating system. I have no practical access to any of that data now. Lets face it, the hardware makers, and Microsoft, are in the business of making our current stuff obsolete. If computers, operating systems, and application software lasted 10 years, they would make a whole lot less money than they do now. How many people have anything older than 5 years on their hard drive? Or have archived material that they can still read? In 10 years I do not expect my PC to be able to read anything I have now, including CDs. (By the way, writeable CDs use a chemical dye, which degrades over time. Writeable CDs do lose quality with age, they are not permanent.) But I do expect that it will have an inexpensive and really high quality scanner. So I am printing my important stuff, text and especially images. (And I am not printing images with an inkjet printer, inkjet inks are notoriously fade prone.) When I need a digital file, I will scan it into whatever I have at the time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: show me the money... Victor, I have made not comment up to now on this thread but here goes. My partner will not send any article to any publication electronic or otherwise unless he gets paid. I on the other hand, have been published in many publication and never ask for compensation. To me the compensation is the free publicity that I get from being in these publications. I always tell my friend if you want money then write a book. With me the only thing that I demand from a publisher, whether it I am doing a cover painting or I am doing an article - is that my web address must be in the credits next to my name. From there it is up to my web site to convince the person for a sale. For me having something published automatically increases the price of the subjet(s), in my case a painting - but I think it would be the same as a model. A second reason I do it as I am making a contribution to the subject matter in general, ships, military history, aviation or what ever. Providing something that someone else can use someday. Victor I think you will agree with me that publications do not have tons of money to "buy" articles and many have gone under just from the cost of publishing and distribution only. My friend was the publisher/editor of a well known scale model publications and could not continue with it, even though it was sucessful for many years. I do know that my friend did pay for article for his magazine - which I think may have been part of the problem. This is just my thoughts on the subject. Michael Donegan NAVYDAZE - Naval & Aviation Artist http://www.navydaze.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Writing for free on the web and elsewhere Hi All, Wow! One little comment ignites a storm of controversy. I am sorry if folks took it the wrong way. If a magazine can get quality articles by not paying it's contributors in any way, more power to them. Let it be known that putting together such an article is not free; photography, drawings and other materials all cost money. For example, getting an 8 X 10 black and white photograph from the Naval Historical Foundation will set you back $21.00 these days. Copies of ship's plans are even more costly. If you can go to Washington, and have the time to visit the archives you can make your own copies, but travel and lodging are not inexpensive either. My point, which obviously could have been expressed better, is that by requiring original research materials in an article, the NRG is asking quite a lot, financially, of it's authors, without being willing to compensate them for their costs. That said, if an author wishes to contribute to the Journal, I have to tip my hat to them. I think the JAMA analogy is a bit strained, as publishing is part of the expected performance standards for a research doctors, who are compensated for their time. Most ship modelers are not professionals, and publishing will not further their careers. If they want to produce an article for the NRG it will be a labor of love, coupled by the satisfaction of having their work appreciated by their peers. The authors who publish in the NRG Journal obviously feel it is worth the costs involved. Lest you think that I am a heartless mercenary, I do believe in giving something back to my hobby; that is what my website, Warship Models Underway, is all about. The minimal advertising on that site just about pays for the bandwidth costs, and all articles and content are freely available. In addition, since 1984, I've also written for a number of magazines, sometimes for free, sometimes for compensation. I feel that if a magazine will not pay authors they should state that up front, as the NRG does. You can then make an informed decision on whether you wish to contribute or not to that publication. Some commercial magazines are not as honorable; getting promised payment from them is a "challenge". In closing, I wish the NRG and it's membership well. Additionally, I would encourage more modelers to pick up pen (or mouse) and contribute to the hobby in any way, print or electronic. We all benefit when someone takes the time to share their knowledge. Cordially, Kurt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Vincent Mccullough" Subject: Re: Show Me the Money ... I read both Victor and Shane's remarks with interest. They made me think about the economics of hobbyist publications and I realized that the old saying that "You only get what you pay for" needs to be reworded. It should be "You only get what SOMEBODY pays for." In the working world, economics pretty well governs what we do. You make something, you expect to get paid for doing it. But we've know for a long time (usually without consciously thinking about it) that doing something as a hobby is something entirely different that doing it as a business. When you build a model, or paint a picture, or anything else as a hobby, you do it without expectation of financial reward. You're doing it for yourself. When you take on an officer's position in a hobby club, your doing it because you (and others) will get something out of the club. And you may spend quite a bit of your own personal time, effort and (occasionally) money making sure that others (and you) get something out of the club. The NRG, SMA, IPMS and other clubs are like that. Volunteer officers, putting their own time into making sure that the membership (including themselves) get something out of the club. Publishing by hobbyists works the same way. Every time a person contributes an article to a newsletter, a message to a mailing list, or material for a web site, they are doing it because they hope that they (and others) will get something out of it. Whether it's the gratification of helping others, or simply of showing off what you know, you ALWAYS get at least as much out of it as you put in. Or you stop doing it. So when you get your next club newsletter, or your next Nautical Research Journal, consider this: you're getting it for nothing more than the dues that you pay into the club that publishes it. Do those dues cover payment to the authors, or just the publishing cost of the newsletter/magazine? And if it's just the publishing cost (true of most newsletters, and true of the Journal), who paid for the effort the authors put into writing the material that went into them? The answer is simple: the authors did. They voluntarily contributed their time and effort so that you could learn something new. Don't get me wrong. I'm not running down "for profit" activities. We all have to eat. Victor publishes (for profit) a fine magazine. Shane runs a hobby shop. I do software development. And it's NICE to make money doing something that you love. So by all means, sell material to Victor, or to Clay Feldman at Ships In Scale, or to Fine Scale Modeler. We all need to support our personal addiction, whether its by selling articles, selling kits, selling models or publishing magazines. But many of us also volunteer our effort by running web sites, and mailing lists, and other volunteer activities that contribute to the health of our hobby. So when you get something for free, just remember, SOMEBODY paid for it by putting their own time, energy and (sometimes) money into it. Maybe Shane. Maybe Victor. But somebody did. So pitch in and contribute where ever you can. Write an article for your local club newsletter, or upload a kit review for a public web site. Or, if you're feeling particularly ambitious, volunteer to serve a term as an IPMS officer, or research an article for the Nautical Research Journal. Or if you don't feel up to any of these things, lurk on the mailing lists and help answer newbie (and not so newbie) questions. But contribute. It'll make the hobby that much more rewarding for both you and the rest of us. Vince McCullough (volunteer) Director, Nautical Research Guild (volunteer) Webmaster, Nautical Research Guild (volunteer) Skipper, Washington Ship Model Society -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Impenna" Subject: Re: Show me the money.. Hi All, I agree with most what Shane has said in response..I do feel that publications, like Model Ship Journal, are in a much better position to be paying for their content than websites, given their high subscription rates.. That said, the one website I subscribe to that does charge for access, $20 per year, is in my opinion, the best modeling publication resource I buy: electroninc or print media. It is, by far, the best value for my money that I have seen. I subscribed to Model Ship Journal and frankly, I thought it was no bargain and IMHO not worth $30 for 4 pretty small magazines and I understand it is now $35 per year!! NRG is an unbelievable journal and they don't pay for their content, but charge pretty hefty annual dues. SMML provides a fantastic site and content for free. Bottom line is in most cases, you get what you pay for..Rarely, if it's for "free" do you get much. Also, and this is blatantly obvious by the content of publications and sites who rely on the "generosity" of manufacturers for both content and "free" review samples, the articles and reviews are clearly skewed in favor of the producers!! Just look at Hyperscale, reviews in Model Ship Journal, and FSM and such. These pubs aren't going to bite the hands that feed them...This doesn't detract from their overall content quality, such as the photos and plans in Model Ship Journal. Just take what they say with a grain of salt. Money is a reality. SOMEBODY has to pay. In a case like SMML, Shane and Lorna provide their time in a terrific effort. The website I subscribe to that does charge is never down, does not accept advertising from model producers, is very fast, and has terrific and IMPARTIAL reviews. This cannot be said of all of the "well-respected" hobby publications, I think most will agree, unless you are one of the producers and publishers of these mags who have a vested interest in them, that this is the case. In the end, each of us needs to decide what is worth it and what isn't, but expect to see more and more "pay" sites and higher subscription rates for quality publications. The one exception to these seems to be the Classic Warship series. Even these, however, have gone up in price, but the quality keeps getting better...I would pay twice the price for them. I doubt Steve Wiper could put out this same quality for less however. Just my 2cents worth... Regards, John Impenna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: misc Battle of the River plate movie: You wouldn't belive it...i forgot to tape it !!!! oh well the ABC seems to show it every year so maybe next year! Woman overboard...they would be called eperb's ..in Australia we are trying to get hikers to have them walking thru australian national parks &they are for hire for for something like $10 a day, yet people still go walking, I think the last case was a guy who has done a trail in Tasmania many times went missing last winter..i think they still have not located his body. Hockey sticks on Sub's...well they are Canadians, canadians love hockey? open the hatches between departments & see how far your puck goes down the length of the ship without touching the rim of the hatches... Divers that went missing..yes remember that one.... there was a lot of different info about that..some people on board that clearly remember seeing the people back on the boat as it was leaving the site & there was also a report of both were extremly depressed before coming to australia ... who knows what happened to them... at the time I thought there was something very strange (was going to say fishy but decided against it) ..who knows what happened to them... maybe they are living on a seculded part of queensland right now with no outside contact or maybe they are "forever diving" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: 1:700 Resin Aftermarket Parts Hi s'guys, Query: does anyone offer the following 1:700 parts in resin? Quad 40mm - unshielded Single 20mm pedistal mount Twin 5-in/38 cal mounts Mk-37 Director housings Mk-34 Director housings Search and Signal lights 40mm directors (sorry, don't have the mark) Round and square life floats 50 cal water cooled Machine Guns Thanks in advance.. Derek Wakefield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: David Sepos Subject: For Sale 1/350 USS Ingersoll Shanghai Dragon kit #1007 USS Ingersoll. This is the version with the armored box launchers for cruise missles. Sold complete with Gold Medal Models brass photoetch. $45 plus shipping to U.S. buyer only. Sorry, I don't want to get involved in foreign shipping, no pun intended. :-) If interested contact me off board. Thanks, Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume