Subject: SMML VOL 1586 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 01:01:44 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Book Suggestions 2: Steve Wiper's request 3: British L and M class destroyers 4: Re: new books 5: Re: New book from Classic Warship 6: Re: Hermonie 7: Re: autographs and Al Ross 8: Re: New book from Classic Warship 9: Classic Warships Books 10: Re: autographs and Al Ross 11: Re: New book from Classic Warship 12: Re: USS Nevada 13: Re: Worst all time kit 14: Re: New book from Classic Warships 15: "Good" Reviews of "Bad" Kits 16: Just a thought 17: New 1/200 plan set on IJN Soryu! 18: Subjects for books, if I may 19: Re: new books 20: Re: Possible new titles from Steve Wiper 21: Re: New book from Classic Warship 22: new book ideas 23: uss enterprise 24: Re: Reviewing the Not So Good, The Bad And The Ugly 25: New Classic Warship books 26: CW Topic and format 27: British Records -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Jtennier@aol.com Subject: Book Suggestions I think a RN (WW2) Tribal destroyer would be an excellent topic for an AOTS type book. Should be well documented source wise, quite a few famous ones, used by many Commonwealth navies, the various armaments/fittings/etc readily could be of use to many ships of the period. If one wanted to pursue further research, these ships had quite a useful shelf life and some interesting post war variants. (I could be conned into helping with drawings........) John PS: Does anyone know what Conway/Chrysalis' plans are for the series in the next few years? No point in overlapping and competing....... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Steve Wiper's request Steve I too would like to see a book on British WWII carriers. Yes, there was an AOTS book on the Victorious, but this class made up only six of the 14 fleet carriers active during WW2 (excluding the '45 commissioned Colossus class ships which didn't really see action). Courageous and Glorious may have been sunk early, almost before the war got going, but Ark Royal, Eagle and Hermes got up to plenty before being sunk and the last two have had little coverage. Argus was old, slow and obsolete but also was used actively as late as '44. Furious steamed more miles than any other British warship in WW2 and was involved in more action than you can shake a stick at. She was also active in WWI and was probably the only major warship laid up because she had worn her boilers and engines out through over use! Unicorn was the other ship, came into service in '42 - was built as a maintenance carrier but not used as that until the last months of the war - saw active service as a proper carrier up to then in almost all theatres - and almost totally ignored. So please don't dismiss British WWII carriers so lightly - do one minus the Illustrious class! PLEASE! Another group of ships desperately needing a decent reference book is the British TOWN class heavy cruisers. These served actively in every theatre but most of the little that is published concerns the sinking of three of the class. And no, they are not well covered in Raven's book - it is a shadow compared to his Battleship one. Follow that with one on the C class, then one on the D class and then perhaps a combined one on the E and Hawkins classes. None of these have had decent coverage. The C's in particular were very active ships. John Sutherland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: British L and M class destroyers Someone a few issues ago lamented that the forthcoming WEM L and M class offerings were in 350th as they wanted 700th scale. HP-Models produce 700 scale resin kits of the Laforey, Lance, Legion, Milne, Martin and Orkan (Polish M class) all in 1942 fits except Laforey (43). These are not WEM standard or realistically buildable totally from the box, but are never-the-less very buildable. I would endorse what someone else said recently about HP kits - the main mouldings are very good and accurate but desperately need PE and replacement of small parts which are too fragile and/or impossible to remove from the backing sheet. In addition the masts and gun barrels need replacing (raised lines on a resin sheet - too few for the guns anyway - good only for using as a template as to length). The instructions are basic but adequate - you will need references. I have built Matchless and Musketeer using the Milne kit as a base with the aid of brass rod for guns and WEM pompoms, searchlights and 25ft boat (I didn't like the shape of HP's - the other boats were OK) and bits from WEM's O&P and K/L/N class PE sheets. I also used a few other WEM bits and some from the spares box but they were to do with detailing and conversion to chosen subjects in Dec 43 configuration. My model of the Matchless is complete and Musketeer well on the way and I am pleased with the end result. The completed Matchless "looks good". With access to aftermarket extras, and a modicum of building skills (I am not of competition medal winning standard with my builds) I see no reason why any of the 16 L and M ships could not be built at any stage of their careers using one or other of the HP kits as a base. My thanks to them tackling this subject. I know the entire HP range is available through NNT in Germany and understand that Pacific Front in the USA have some of the range. Both are reputable dealers. If anyone else is stocking them no doubt they will say so on this forum. Hope this helps John Sutherland Wellington, New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: new books Sadly, what I'd like to see in new books is not economically viable. While my primary interests are in combatants, I've always liked landing craft and auxiliaries, particularly the big tenders (AD, AS, AV). Would love to do DIXIE or a sister in 1/96 scale. Happily, I just got a commission to do CURTISS (AV 4) in 1/350, so at least I can dabble... :-) Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: New book from Classic Warship I agree with Bob - MIDWAY class is a very under-appreciated class of carriers in print. It would be great to have a book on all three of the sisters since they all ended up looking different to some degree. Mike NAVYDAZE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Re: Hermonie Definately in camouflage in the spring of 1942. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: autographs and Al Ross >> It was my first wood model and I had a number of questions about this new media. Al was nice (and patient) enough to answer every bonehead question I fired at him. << It was all part of my plan to lure you to the dark side (woodworking), young Skywalker... :-) Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Graham Preston Subject: Re: New book from Classic Warship From Chris Preston Re new AOTS style books from Classic Warships - Steve, for what it's worth I have to echo Ken LeClair's suggestion for future books. Of the three navies with a significant carrier-born fleet air arm, The IJN probably had the most modern carrier force and carrier-born aircraft at the time. It's a shame that there is nothing comparable to an AOTS style book on any Japanese carrier in English, nor for that matter are there any 1/350th scale kits of any of these ships!! There are a number of excellent nooks from Japanese sources that really are excellent - especially if you can read Japanese - which I cannot! I would like to see something comparable to the Japanese books, but in English, along with a kit of the AKAGI, and KAGA, etc. sometime soon. Happy Modelling. Chris Preston, Victoria, B.C. Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Charlie Jarvis Subject: Classic Warships Books Here's what I'd line up to buy: 1. USS Constitution 2. USS Enterprise - CV6 3. WWI Era Destroyers, especially Paulding class 4. Bagley class destroyers 5. Iowa class battleships, especially USS Wisconsin So, when can I sesnd you my check? Best regards; Charlie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:34:33 EST Subject: Re: autographs and Al Ross >> Back to the end of the queue, Rusty! ;^) << I'm a patient man, but don't deprive me of the Elco book! ;-) Rusty White 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: New book from Classic Warship >> Hmm, just as I thought having a "Anatomy of the Ship" book on one of the Japanese Carriers would be great, my opinion also stands for one from the Classic Warship series. << Ken, I would really like to one on a Japanese carrier, but am literally afraid of future publications from Mr. Skulski, who wrote the Yamato, Takao & Fuso books. We are due for another one from him and I highly suspect a carrier. I wont give up. Maybe I could publish his next book!!! Thanks, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Nevada High on the list of subjects to do a book on!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:41:00 EST Subject: Re: Worst all time kit >> Presenting MSJ's Pick For The Worst Model Ship Kits Of All Time." Let me know what you guys think--any candidates for inclusion? << Victor, I hope you don't have any relitives/friends working at Revell or Lindburg. ;-))) As for Viking Models, they're out of business anyway. Rusty White 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: New book from Classic Warships Hey Sami!, How about a book on the SMS Goeben? I have acquired quite a bit of information on that ship during my project to build this 1/200 model. I will be issuing this as a kit later this year. I am working on the massive set of photo etch now for three days straight! There are over 100 photo etch parts on the forward bridge structure alone! Thanks for the suggestions, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Peter Subject: "Good" Reviews of "Bad" Kits With a few exceptions of really good and truly awful kits (and we'd argue over those exceptions) there are mostly kits that might be "good enough." For example: -- Good enough for my kid to play with; -- Good enough IF you buy photoetch for it; -- Good enough if your standards of enjoyable modeling don't require you to care about the placement of AA guns on the 1942 v. 1944 fit out; -- Good enough if you can skillfully fill air bubbles in resin; -- Good enough if you have advanced modeling skils; ...and so forth. The best reviews (of models, movies, cars) don't just say "buy this" or "it sucks". The best reviews tell us about the product, identify shortcomings and strengths and leave it to the reader. In some instances the reviewer's personal comments are very valuable: "I build models professionally and have never seen such poor casting". So, while reading someone ripping into some poor old Lindberg kit can be quite amusing, more info in a review is what is needed, whether that info says good or bad things, as long as it all helps me decide if I personally want to buy that particular kit. An example: The review on SteelNavy about the HP Models' Kirov. The reviewer noted that problems in casting, the ill-fitting deck levels, etc., and then said despite that, this is the only modern Kirov out there. Perfect review! I wanted a modern Kirov. Based on the review, I was able to clearly decide to take on the task of using buckets of zap-a-gap and rivers of Mr. Surfacer and truckloads of sanding sticks to make a presentable model, 'cause I really wanted a Kirov and was willing to "pay" with my own time to get it. Another modeler with less of a commitment to a modern Kirov likely read the same review and did not buy an HP. Everybody wins. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Richard Sweeney Subject: Just a thought I guess I'll offer my two cents worth, and allow you to give me the change from my input. As far as good vs Bad reviews of kits I agree with Mr David Miller's comments where he points out that a review which politely points out the problems of a kit. Such a review will still tell the reader that reader that a kit may require more scratch building than assembly. To those that read magazines in other modeling areas I think you will remember a magazine called "Military Model Preview" which began by promising to be brutally honest in it's reviews and ended up being just brutal. In the Process of tearing every new kit to pieces it just ended up tearing itself to pieces. There is nothing wrong with being honest, but you don't need to be brutal in the process. Rich Sweeney -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: New 1/200 plan set on IJN Soryu! I just received the new set of plans in 1/200 of the IJN carrier "Soryu". It is a three page set of drawings that are really good. I cant answer for the accuracy, but it does look good. These are the first extensive set of drawings on this ship ever published. I got these thru Pacific Front Hobbies @ www.pacificfront.com Thanks, Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Richard Sweeney Subject: Subjects for books, if I may In response to your open invitation, Steve... I definitely second the idea of one on the USS Arizona, especially if it also discusses the USS Pennsylvania, especially where so many seemed interested in how to convert the new Arizona kits to the Pennsylvania. I also second the Liberty ships, including military conversions. May I suggest also US navy four piper destroyers (sorry, biased, My Grandfather served on the USS Wickes in WWI, BUt they served in Two world wars.) The USS Oregon, Massachusetts, Indiana class would be nice. and Just Saturday someone was saying that they wished "You" would do a book on the USS Massachusetts (BB59) and lets see, The Littorios and the Zaras would be nice... and I know it's a bit esoteric, But a Warship Pictorial on the USS Vesuvius would be real nice, Coome on 15 inch Compressed Air cannons in 1896, how can you resist?? just my two cents worth. Rich Sweeney -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Subject: Re: new books Hi Steve, That is very interesting regarding the cost of photos of RN ships...I know the Essex and Illustrious had been done, but I was thinking more of YOU doing them!! I think if the type of book you are proposing is done with the same level of quality as your current Pictorials series, that they would be excellent additions..That said, I'm sure from a business standpoint, it would make sense to cover topics that aren't available, so my vote for early 20th century USN, ANYTHING IJN, Pearl Harbor Battleships...Good Luck with this!! Regards, John Impenna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: gms5372 Subject: Re: Possible new titles from Steve Wiper Steve: I don't recall any modern French vessels in the AOTS series. The French (and the Italians) make beautiful, graceful designs. Both are underrepresented, the French more than the Italians. Perhaps Le Terrible or Richelieu (possibly both are misspelled!) might make good subjects? How commercial they might be is another question! More important is the matter of scale in your drawings. Based on measuring scale rulers in a lot of books, I can say without much fear of contradiction that the advertised scale almost never gets into the book accurately. 1:48 turns out as 1:49 or 1:51 as actually published in the book. This is not a criticism: with the requirements of publishing, paper shrinkage, and other factors it must be damn difficult to get the drawing exactly the right size. To sidestep these problems, every drawing ought to have a scale ruler drawn immediately adjacent to it. This should be a double ruler, with feet on one edge and meters on the other, to serve your entire audience. There are any number of examples of such rulers, in books from Chapman to Steel to Paris to Chapelle. While such rulers can be given a variety of lights and whistles, the basic requirement is to provide a length of at least a few inches (or ca. 10 cm.) carefully divided into individual feet and meters. I assume that if many views are initially drawn to the same scale, a single ruler can be carefully made up, then electronically duplicated and inserted in each drawing before it is given to the publisher. Scale rulers free the reader from the problems of publication. By measuring the ruler, then doing a little math, a reader can quickly determine the actual scale of a drawing as printed in the book. Once this is known, a good photocopier can be used to enlarge or reduce the drawing in small increments to obtain the exact scale desired. A few suggestions, humbly offered by one who is well aware that he does not have the responsibility for actually publishing anything: 1. Scale rulers should be closely adjacent to each separate view or cluster of views (for example, the old custom was to draw a hull's sheer (outboard profile) and half-breadth plan, with the ruler placed between them parallel to the keel); 2. Scale rulers should be graduated in both English and metric units; 3. The placement of scale rulers should indicate unambiguously the scale of every view. If in doubt, put one in. Have at least one ruler on each page, even if several pages are supposed to have been drawn to the same scale; 4. Make the ruler an integral part of the drawing before it is sent to the publisher, not added after the page is made up; 5. When you have to split a drawing across the gutter (for example, an overhead view or outboard profile of a destroyer hull), explicitly split the drawing and draw in a transverse line on each side of the split to indicate the exact split point. Ask the publisher to get the split points well out of the gutter so that each side of the drawing can be flattened, measured and copied for templates; 6. When splitting a drawing, place a scale ruler next to each section, just in case; 7. When rulers are used, pay less attention to scale and more attention to distortions in aspect ratio, for which scale rulers cannot compensate. Hope this feedback gives you some things to consider in your new series! Regards, George M. Sinkankas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: DONRCSHIPS@aol.com Subject: Re: New book from Classic Warship Hello all I see on this sight someone is asking about what books may be intresting to look at or buy, or put out on the markit I would like to see something on DDGs the newer agis Distroyers for I did the DDG -68 in RC in 1/96 scale and would love to see something on it. I just got my USS lexingtion CV 2 number 13 I love it one good book with many pictures I have not seen in the pass. So if anybody is intrested in CV -2 look up that book good information and plenty of of good Pictures, Now that is one class I have seen very little of, How about doing your next book on a DDG class, Thank you agin for a such a fine class of books Don From Portland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Doug Marrel" Subject: new book ideas Second vote on post WWII Essex class ships (a GROSSLY underserved group). A book on just the Essex's that picked up the space capsules with NASA/astronaut tie in's would be a seller I would think, since it could have a broader base of appeal. Modern PG/hydrofoil/Cyclone class small/SEAL warfare ships Coast guard cutters (esp WHEC and WMEC's) US nuclear cruisers (especially USS Texas :) Russian nuclear cruisers (1 devoted to the Kirov class alone would be neat). How about the lowly LST? That ship, along with the Liberties contributed more towards winning the war than anything else. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Jansen, Matthijs" Subject: uss enterprise Hello SMMLies I am planning to build the enterprise by tamiya. Now I am looking for pictures of this ship, especially of the hangar-deck. The Tamiya kit does not come with this deck so I want to build it from scratch. To get some pictures of this ship I wanted to buy a book about it that was written by Kinzey, but unfortunately it is out of print. Does anybody know about any other books or pics about this ship? matthijs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: AJOWENS@aol.com Subject: Re: Reviewing the Not So Good, The Bad And The Ugly An interesting idea - of course it's much easier to be positive than negative in my opinion. Most of the newer kits seem to be pretty well made also. Now I build mainly for my own relaxation and pleasure - not for sale or musuem/corporate display so I can live with something that's not 100% dead-on perfect if it's reasonable and a subject I like. I do the best I can and don't lose sleep if the hull is 6.34 scale inches short in 1/700. That said I nominate for the SMMLlie Stinkers List the Matchbox (ex-Revell) 1/720 Arizona. The moulding is heavy and the details look mainly like lumps of mud. I spent more time working on that thing than any other 700-720 scale kit I've ever built. The secondaries and boats are basically useless - the fighting tops are horrid - the main battery turrets lack the rangefinders, no shields for the secondaries either. After a bit more than 2 months (and a lot of looking in Paul Stillwell's book) I finally finished it - didn't come out half bad either. The kit cost all of $7, I added some GMM details and the rest came out of the spares/scrap box - Despite all that, I *enjoyed* building that too! Cheers, A.J. Owens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Mike Connelley Subject: New Classic Warship books Howdy: Horray! I'd love to see more books like the AOTS series...they're so useful for fixing up kits. One of the things that I don't like about the AOTS series is that the photographic reproduction quality isn't the best and there's little info on sister ships if any. Of course to do more than one ship in that kind of detail is a tall order. I applaud your first two choices...they are both excelent. Of the subjects mentioned, I would recommend the Big E and the Bismarck. With the Bismarck, there are two 1/350 and a few 1/700 kits that are commonly available. I don't know of a good book on the Bismarck that's useful for modelers in English (not to say that I've looked really hard...). Including info on the Tirpitz would also be great, if possible. So the ship is famous, there are kits out there, and there is a need (I think) for a good technical book with lots of drawings and photos in english. The Big E is also very famous, yet there is no commonly available 1/350 kit of her for some mysterious reason. Hopefully Trumpeter will do the 1/350 Hornet which probably could be converted to the Big E or Yorktown wihout hurting yourself. Anyway, as is the case for the Bismarck, I think there is a need for a good book of detailed drawings, especially to capture how the Big E changed through the years. Details on the Yourktown and Hornet would also be great. For the "and others" catagory, might I suggest the Nagato? I also have a soft spot for the other IJN BBs. The Essex would also be a good idea, especially if Trumpeter comes through with thier plastic 1/350 kit. Cheers Mike Connelley Yamatoholic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Dick Wood" Subject: CW Topic and format IMHO I think the new concept a big success if Steve picks his subject well and the Arizona is a great one to start off with. I just might add that I have a copy of the AJ Press Tirpitz. The fold out plans and details are a pure knock-out. If such plan sheets can be incorporated into the book, I am sure it would be a hit. But I don't know if the price would be prohibitive for CW. They might also consider doing a 2 volume set on the ship such as the Arizona. A topic for a book would be on all smaller cabaliber weapons such as 2 pounder pom poms, 40mm bofors. the book should have a great deal of photos of each weapon and have scaled plan drawings as well. I think a book such as this would be very helpful to modelers, especially new ones coming on board to the hobby. Just a few thoughts Dick Wood -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "John Rule" Subject: British Records >> I would like to do British Navy subjects, but there is such a copy write stranglehold on photos of these ships that it is cost prohibitive. Ever wonder why you don't see many books recently published on British Navy ships? The royalty from the Imperial War Museum is about $100 per photo! And they wonder why people don't buy them for publication! << I heartily agree with Steve's remarks. The British museums and holders of records have ridiculous rates and charges. This is so much so, in my opinion, that they are deterring research into many facets of technological development of the past 200 years. Particular offenders that spring to mind are the National Maritime Museum and the National Railway Museum. The rates and charges for photos and drawings are ridiculous and certainly have stymied a lot of research I have undertaken. Sincerely, John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume