Subject: SMML VOL 1600 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:16:51 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: computers used for modelling 2: prinz eugen 3: Re: Book Idea-Panay 4: Argentine F9Fs 5: Why is a ship called "she" 6: Why is a ship called "she" 7: 1/350 and smaller scale props 8: necessities for retirement 9: Plastic cases 10: ARROMANCHES KIT.....Ray from Canada calling... 11: Radar color 12: Fun And Profit With $300 Kits 13: Skytrex and HP Flowers 14: Re: old kit prices -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: KM Schnellboot S-57 2: Revell 1/72 S-Boat PE Set/Trumpeter 1/200 Sovremenny Replacement Turrets -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: computers used for modelling There is talk about computers and 3D stuff im not sure if this will help anyone, but an armour site I frequent... oops did I say armour... I mean LAND SHIP has something that could be of interest http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hvoerle/ it contains the following Construction Techniques: Casting your own models. Tank-CAM.(Computer Aided Modelling) PhotoModeller Lite, make drawings from pictures. Scale Calculator program by Frank Crenshaw. Camouflage patterns for Photoshop. it might be useful instead of paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for software stuff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: prinz eugen I thought the stripe camo was only during the cruise with the Bismarck & the bismarck took hers off before exiting Norway, yet the prinz kept her's on, well that's what I thought -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Art Herrick" Subject: Re: Book Idea-Panay >> I, for one, would love to see a detailed exposition on the Panay. Have exhausted all the usual suspects of sources of info, including detailed plans and four photos of Panay and Oahu from Floating Drydock, leaving much to guess at. Perhaps it's just another "good excuse" to put off actual building. If I got such a book, I would have to find some other excuse. Please, don't make life any harder than it is by denying me my excuse. << Skip Hassler and fellow SMMLies, I have been chasing information on the Yangtze River gunboat USS PANAY PR5 for the past 17 years, with a great deal of success. In the beginning, a letter from Dana Wegner, the curator of US NAVY ship model collection, told me I had an impossible task ... but I proved he was wrong. All it took "WAS A LOT OF DIGGING" in the Washington archives ... weeks of time, but a fun project !! Be careful using the Floating Drydock (FD) drawings of PANAY ... some examples: 1. The hull body sections are not accurate when compared to the National Archives (NA) USS PANAY PG45 and USS OAHU PG46 hull lines drawing No. PG 45 - SO500-8505 - 46. Note: When searching in the NA for drawings of the six 1928 Yangtze gunboats you will find they are listed by a Patrol Gunboat (PG) designator, with their hull number having a #4 prefix. On 15 June 1928, while the six 1928 gunboats were still under construction, the designator and hull numbers were changed to Patrol River (PR) and the prefix #4 for the hull number was dropped... so PG45 became PR5, but this change was not made to the construction drawings at the NA. See Norman Friedman's book U.S. SMALL COMBATANTS, US Naval Institute Press, 1987, for a history of the U.S. Yangtze River Patrol vessels. 2. The location of the propellers, and their size, shown on the FD drawing body plan are incorrect. The propellers are 4'-3" off the hull centerline, not located in line with the outboard dagger rudders which were 8'-6" off the hull centerline. The propellers on the FD drawing are shown as 4"-6" dia., but they were actually 5'-9" dia.. These are major errors for a ship modeler! 3. The FD drawing information mixes the 1928 "as built" configuration with PANAY's configuration on Sunday 12 December 1937 when Japanese aircraft, in a sneak attack on a neutral vessel, sunk her, 28 miles above Nanking China on the Yangtze River. She was the first US Navy ship to be sunk by enemy aircraft ... a prelude to Pearl Harbor, four years later, on another Sunday. Basically FD traced their drawings from 1:48 National Archives drawings entitled, Finished Plans No. 14 and No. 15, drawings No.13538 and No. 13521, dated 28/11/28 and 21/11/28, drawn by The Kiangnan Dock & Engineering Co., Shanghai, China. PANAY was completed 10/9/28. (They used day/month/year on drawings ... the European system.) 4. If you choose her 1937 configuration to model ... On the FD drawings the Bullet Proof [BP] Armor shields for her Lewis guns are not indicated, but the BP shields on the main and boat decks are indicated, but not detailed, so you might not know what you are looking at. The canvas shelter on top of CPO's quarters/sick bay on the aft end of the boat deck, was for weather protection for the crew when viewing movies, and was known as the aft "Palm Garden" (but that is another story). A movie screen was permanently erected between the two engine room cowl vents (not on FD drawing). Do not show the Palm Garden canvas or movie screen if modeling PANAY, "as built". I have not found when this canvas shelter was installed. 5. The FD drawing does not show the gas can racks on the stern. The two racks held 40, 5 gal. gasoline cans. Fuel for the motor pan. These racks are a predominate feature of PANAY, but were not a "as built" feature (I am not sure when they were added). Back then, they had a great fear of fire and gasoline, so the racks were designed so that with a pull on a lanyard the 40 cans could be jettisoned off the stern. 6. The photo of the 26ft motorpan on FD, sheet 3, shows the motorpan for USS LUZON not PANAY, her name shows clearly on the back of the motorman's seat. All the gunboat motorpans had different shelter designs and deck details over their life. Note the difference between the motorpan in FD's PANAY profile drawing and the photo of LUZONS motorpan. The FD drawing profile view shows PANAY's motorpan in it's original 1928 design, which had changed by 1937. 7. Circa 1934 there was a 25hp Johnson outboard motor installed on PANAY's pullpan. 8. The FD drawings give no details on the twin dagger rudders. Have found no drawings that do. I have only been able to detailed them through photo interpretation. The FD drawing and the NA "as built" drawing shape for the dagger rudders is incorrect, but close! 9. The FA drawing shows the solid BP rail and portable PB shields around the fwd 3"/50 DP gun in their "as built configuration. This had changed by 1937,as seen in photos. 10. The four pictures you purchased from FD were taken during her speed trials in 1928, and represent her "as built". There are some 80 drawings at the National Archives for PANAY and her five 1928 sisters, which were built side by side in a Chinese shipyard in Shanghai, China, on a Class Two US Naval contract (basic US NAVY specifications, design by contractor). Another source of some of the NA 1928 gunboat drawings is The Maryland Silver Co. www.marylandsilver.com. Their Web site has a list of drawings available for PANAY PR5, OAHU PR6, GUAM PR3, TUTUILLA PR4, LUZON PR7 and MINDANAO PR8. The only way to really know what the NA drawings will give you for the information you need, is to go to the College Park NA facility and go through the 80 odd drawings, which I have done. This becomes a personal choice of drawing to purchase. There are a lot of details that are common with the six 1928 gunboats. In 1985 I became an associate member of The Yangtze River Patrol Assoc. and over the years I have attended four of their annual gatherings, and corresponded with their members. This has been a very valuable source of information and photos for the U.S. Yangtze River gunboats. In fact if I had not had the opportunity to meet this group of old "River Rats" my 1928 gunboat project would not be where it is today!! Meeting these men who served on the Yangtze has been a real privilege in my life!! There are many pictures of the six 1928 gunboats at the NA and the Naval Historical Center, at the Washington Navy Yard. From experience the only way to find out what is available is to visit both facilities and go through their files. In many instances, at both archives, I found valuable reference photos stored away in boxes and not catologed. In one instance an archivist gave me a box marked "China - 1920s", which yielded in progress construction pictures, which I had been told did not exist!!!! There is a resin 1:192 kit of PANAY available from Commander Series Models Inc./Iron Shipwright Series www.commanderseries.com/ships.htm To successfully build this model, in a "as built" configuration, you will at least need the Maryland Silver drawing set for PANAY, which is reasonably priced. To offer help to my fellow ship modelers in building a model of PANAY ... is a problem! There is so many construction details that are not covered in readily available drawings, and that I have developed in notes and sketches and even a hull plating expansion drawing I made through photo interpretation, and a lot of information stored in my head, that it becomes a major project, to from a distance, to walk someone through building a model of PANAY. I have done this twice, and will not repeat the exercise again ... SORRY. Maybe a book on PANAY is in the future, but I will make no promises. One thing that holds me back, is a question of how many books I could sell, to make the effort worthwhile, and it would be a major effort in both writing, getting permission to use photos, and drafting drawings. I have to ask myself how many ship modelers are really interested in the old Yangtze gunboats????? I assume Steve Wiper would agree with my negative approach to a PANAY book. Skip ... Hope I have been helpful in pointing your way to information on PANAY. Art Herrick Westmoreland NH Member: USS CONSTITUTION Model Shipwright Guild Nautical Research Guild Yangtze River Patrol Assoc. (now: South China and Yangtze Patrols - Asiatic Fleet group) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Argentine F9Fs ** Winged Things Warning ** Okay....odd request, quasi-related. Does anyone have any information about the Grumman F9F Panthers the Argentine navy flew off their light carrier Independencia back in the 50s-60s. I've seen brief snippits in naval books that they did operate the type, but little in the way of information as to squadrons, numbers, colors, years operated, etc. Hence, sounds like it might make for an interesting project. Please contact me offlist. Derek Wakefield Denton "NOT the Home of Happiness" TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Why is a ship called "she" With all due respect to the ladies of SMML Given all the talk of beer and lovely lasses, I was reminded of this bit from "Naval Ceremonies, Customs, and Traditions - Fifth Edition" by William P Mack and Royal W. Connell. Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz said in a talk to the Society of Sponsors of the United States Navy; "A ship is always referred to as 'she' because it cost so much to keep one in paint and powder." As told by George L Moses in Falmouth, Mass. aboard Enterprise A boat is called a she because... There's always a great deal of bustle about her. Because there's usually a gang of men around. Because she has a waist and stays. Because she takes a lot of paint to keep her looking good. Because it's not the intital expense that breaks you, it the upkeep. Because she is all decked out. Because it takes a good man to handle her right. Because she shows her topsides, hides her bottom, and when coming into port, always heads for the buoys. Derek Wakefield Denton "NOT the Home of Happiness" TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: david_l._miller@ccmail.wiu.edu Subject: 1/350 and smaller scale props I consider small-scale props to be a big problem in my modeling. There are some beautifully cast brass props available on the web but they are for the RC models, and even the small ones are "way big" for our purposes. It is interesting with the fine castings of even the Tamaya 1/350 kits, how "clunky" the props appear in comparison to the rest of the casings. It seems props are usually done as an afterthought to the rest of the kit. I have used the photetch props mentioned in this list and find them to be satisfactory. However, with the 1/350 three and five bladed props for a battleship, the photoetch blades are a uniform thickness from the hub to the outer edge and from the leading edge to the trailing edge. Real blades have a sculptured appearance and are not just a flat piece of metal. This problem is not eliminated by bending a slight "cup" into the blades as recommended in the instructions. I think the proper sculptured appearance is beyond the capabilities of photoetch. This "flatness" problem is most pronounced in the larger props in the 1/350 scale. This problem would not be so pronounced on smaller props, such as a 1/700 prop for a destroyer. With all the fine sculptured castings on some models, it seems odd that the props are so toy like. While brass may be too much to hope for, I would snap up a well cast scale prop in either plastic or resin, if they were available. With all the aftermarket stuff out there, I am surprised that someone is not turning out quality castings in these popular scales. Regards, Dave Miller Macomb, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Denis & Marilyn Campbell Subject: necessities for retirement Denis James wrote: >> 1...buy all those books (research , of course) & 2...keep all those kit boxes hidden away & never build them. They're necessitys of course, for when I retire......... << First of all, someone who spells denis correctly is ingerently and genetically a good man (2 n's is bad enough but don't you just love it when someone spells it correctly but tacks an e on the end? - only met 2 or 3 others who spell it the correct way. Don't count on the "retirement" excuse holding up indefinitely - I retired almost ten years ago and my kit collection is still hidden away, pretty much (good thing she doesn't really know where I hid the real stache). I sometimes wonder how I ever found time to go to work - There just aren't enough hours in a day. Could be a function of age, I guess (turned 71 today) and the fact that I don't have places to be at a certain time anymore so I tend to "put things off". Just don't count on all those kits disappearing soon after you retire - it aint goin' to happen. And I still buy kits to add to the pile! Denis Campbell Avon MA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Denis & Marilyn Campbell Subject: Plastic cases Peter asked for a source of clear plastic cases. I bought one a while back from BC Plastics - Rusty White had mentioned this man in either Minnesota or Wisconsin. I called him up, gave him the exact dimensions I wanted, and had a beautiful case within a week. The price was very reasonable (shipping cost almost as much as the case itself!). I can't seem to find his address at the moment but will try to find it and get back to you. I make most of my own cases and they haven't turned out too bad (the one I bought I needed in a hurry and I was in the throes of building the model to go in it). There is an article on building cases in the November 2001 issue of Fine Scale Modeller which just about walks you through the process. Denis Campbell Avon MA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: stillmo@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: ARROMANCHES KIT.....Ray from Canada calling... Attn. John Fiebke..... I tried emailing you yesterday, transmission came back unsendable or whatever. Please email me with regards to you having that Heller ARROMANCHES kit......I want to build it now as HMCS MAGNIFICENT, a 1950s Canadian CVL and that kit will be perfect. Hope you still have it. Yours aye, RD Bean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Paul Leugers Subject: Radar color What would be the color of the radar unit on a 1944 US Navy destroyer. On a couple of photographs the radar color does not seem to match the superstructure. Paul -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Fun And Profit With $300 Kits >> Of course what I had to say about the $300 dollar model only makes sense if you actually build, or try to build to model. It does not apply if you put the model on the top shelf in your closet and forget about it for 15 years. << Well maybe not. In 15 years, those stashed-away models may become 'classic' kits if you chose your subject with care. They'll be worth a whole lot more to a collector who merely 'wanted' them back in "twenty-ought-two." 15 years later he decides he really needs those old classics to fill out his collection of vintage resin kits. He's got money now and even a few Blackie Collins knives and a .45 Auto hand-fitted by Bill Wilson in his collections. Now he really wants an original Resin Master kit with Blackball Fleet photoetched parts. Only problem is, they're no longer made and all the prime examples are already built-up. In their day they were well-made of the finest materials, including nice etching. Some guy turned 'em out in his garage, back in the old days when craftsmanship and quality counted for something. Poor fellow passed away a pauper with more reputation than money in the bank. His contemporary customers were certainly shocked at the news and snapped up all remaining inventory. Your wife is secretly happy that you spent the money anyway and bought those old kits when you could. Yours are NIB, as they say, and you're selling those dusty old things at collector's rates, converting the cash into a down payment on that retirement cabin in the woods... Ain't life grand? Victor Baca -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Skytrex and HP Flowers What I think Andrew was referring to with the Skytrex kits was them coming already made up. In the Meridian 700th range they can be procured plain - meaning in kitset form (albeit the main casting is fairly complete) or "painted" which is indeed completed and basic painted (one colour grey). The kitset versions are usually two thirds the price of the assembled "painted" versions. The 600 scale Triton coastal series are truer kits in the conventional sense and come only in that form. The HP Flowers. I have two unbuilt HP Flowers Snowberry and the Canadian Atholl. They appear to be long forecastle ships and are both in 1943 fit. They are, however, quite different in layout, parts and mouldings. Hope that helps. The WEM Flower PE set will be a boon. John Sutherland Wellington New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: old kit prices >> ...will question prices (and quality), and even when you explain why they are what they are, there will still be some resistance to the prices in a world that grew up with $1 waterline destroyers and $.69 Revell kits... << I have that beat. My model buidling predates plastic kits and I remember a stick and tissue flying model of an I-16 that sold for a nickle!!!!!!! I'm not sure what the ship model kits cost but I do remember that I could not afford most of them. That's why I early on became a scratchbuilder. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: JKrakow@aol.com Subject: KM Schnellboot S-57 Just added a set of photos taken underwater of the wreck of S-57 in the Adriatic. Very nice recent color shots. Go to: www.PrinzEugen.com and click on the Schnellboot article. Cheers Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Snyder Subject: Revell 1/72 S-Boat PE Set/Trumpeter 1/200 Sovremenny Replacement Turrets Well, we've finally nailed down all the parts to be included in WEM PE 7201 for the Revell S-Boat, and Peter Hall is working on the design right now. Every time we thought we had finalized the list, more information would arrive. Thanks to fellow SMMLies Dave Krakow and Falk Pletscher for their input, and to Steve Wiper for his Schnellboote book. The parts will be as follows: 1. Rails/Dodgers. 2. Lifting/locking handle for aft hatch. 3. Smoke pot handwheels and replacement lifting handles. 4. Liferaft hand ropes. 5. Compass and sight to replace binnacle tops if required. 6. Binnacle top window cover and handle. 7. Replacement rail around top of binnacle. 8. Windscreen frame. 9. Replacement bow depression rail 10. Aerial insulators x 4. 11. Cleat for ensign staff. 12. Tie bars between bridge and antennae supports. 13. Replacement helmet rack for back of bridge. 14. Lifting eyes for armoured bridge. 15. Magazine racks for bow 20mm mounting x 12. 16. Magazines for above 17. Section of bow 20mm mounting that extends above breech. 18. Restraining strap/chain for signal platform. 19. Slatted covers for ventilators. 20. Extra detail for bridge binocular sight. 21. Torpedo props, fore & aft. 22. Torpedo cradles and hold down straps. 23. Torpedo loading tackle 24. Bridge compass face (to replace decal). 25. Clear vision screen for forward bridge window (so it can be stuck on to a piece of clear plastic to simulate the window). 26. Wheel and engine telegraphs for sad gits that want to detail inside of wheelhouse. 27. Hinges and handles etc. for front of 37mm shield. 28. 37mm details 29. Ammunition clip to fit in the clip guide. 30. Foul weather covers for skylights on top of lockers 31. Sight for twin 20mm 32. Valve handwheels x 20. In addition, Peter Hall's master for the corrected replacement turrets--WEM Pro 2001--for the Trumpeter 1/200 Sovremenny arrived yesterday and will be off to the casters today. You can have a look at: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/pro2001.jpg Peter's master for a 1/600 Arado Ar-196 also arrived and will be off for casting as well. The part number will be WEM Pro 623, and will include its own photoetch; price will be 2.95 Pounds for a set of 2. The pic will be up on the WEM website in the next day or two. This is a little jewel--right down to the cylinder blisters on the cowling--that will really dress up those 1/600 German capital ships. As always, pre-orders being cheerfully accepted. The initial run of the Sovremenny turrets (2 to a bag) will not be all that large, so get your order in now to be assured a set. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume