Subject: SMML VOL 1607 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:06:28 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Mikasa colours 2: Re: PT boats 3: A Modelers Vacation 4: Re: 1:350 scale props 5: Re: Marine Model Company and USS Trigger 6: Puget Sound to play role as 21st century Navy takes shape 7: Hull numbers on turret tops 8: Painting 1:700 ships 9: Re: Connely's new "in Action" book 10: German aircraft carrier 11: Re: Brass PE for S-100 12: The Sex of Ships 13: PT boat hulls 14: Essex "classes" 15: Re: PT Boats 16: Re: PT Model in wood 17: Re: Soviet Warship Colours 18: HMS Andrew website 19: S-130 S-boat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: S-100 Photoetch Price 2: Re: Modern Russian Gray and Mauretania 3: PT Boats -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Mikasa colours >> The only addition to Falk's article which I would like to make is that since "Mikasa" was connected to the Yokosuka naval yard than according to "IJ Naval Vessel's Colour" chart the closes match will be C-32 (Warship gray) from Mr.Colour range of Grunze Sangyo. << Hi All; I was aware that the different colours for each yard were used in WWII. But MIKASA is a Russo-Japanese war era ship. Did they use those colors that far back, or when did this start? I'm just about to paint all the ships for the Yalu battle in 1894 in 1:1000 scale. Thanks Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister eGroups : WoodenWalls Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: PT boats >> One possibility would be to make a multi-media kit with a built up wooden hull. I think a good plank on bulkhead hull could be made for PT boats. Their flatter bottoms, slab sides, and flat transoms would be a relatively easy build. Some filler/sealer on bass wood would give a very smooth finish to the hull. The deck, superstructure, engines, vents, and other hardware could be resin, photoetch, injection molded plastic or white metal. << Hi Dave, That kit already exists, from Bluejacket Shipcrafters, was designed by Al Ross, and retails for $249.00. http://www.bluejacketinc.com/kits/ptboat.htm Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Devin J. Poore" Subject: A Modelers Vacation I'm off to the airport in three hours to fly to Charleston for a 5 day weekend. During that time I plan on hitting Patriots Point, Wilmington, NC to see the BB there, and I have tickets to get in to see the Hunley tomorrow afternoon. I can maximize my museum time as the other half is off on an "all girls" trip with her former college roommates, so I don't have to entertain her. I'm taking my brand new Canon G2 digital camera with me and plan on shooting a lot of photos. If there's anything anyone needs photos of in particular let me know and I'll try to get it and send it along; unfortunately they already said that no photos of the Hunley will be allowed for security reasons (no kidding, guess they're worried that 140 year old technology will fall into the wrong hands!). I might also make a couple of other museums in the area, but those above are the priorities depending on what time allows. Devin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: 1:350 scale props >> I have used the photetch props mentioned in this list and find them to be satisfactory. However, with the 1/350 three and five bladed props for a battleship, the photoetch blades are a uniform thickness from the hub to the outer edge and from the leading edge to the trailing edge. Real blades have a sculptured appearance and are not just a flat piece of metal. This problem is not eliminated by bending a slight "cup" into the blades as recommended in the instructions. I think the proper sculptured appearance is beyond the capabilities of photoetch. This "flatness" problem is most pronounced in the larger props in the 1/350 scale. This problem would not be so pronounced on smaller props, such as a 1/700 prop for a destroyer. With all the fine sculptured castings on some models, it seems odd that the props are so toy like. While brass may be too much to hope for, I would snap up a well cast scale prop in either plastic or resin, if they were available. With all the aftermarket stuff out there, I am surprised that someone is not turning out quality castings in these popular scales. << I know this is a bit "old" (things age fast in cyberspace...), but I have been away on business. I recently built the Seawolf Torpedo 1:350 Nautilus (SSN-571) and Halibut (SSGN-587) models. These came with white metal propellers that had exactly the sculpted appearance that Dave is talking about. They do in fact look much more realistic to my eye than the flat photoetch propellers, particularly in this "larger" scale. I find this problem to be very noticeable with modern 1:350 scale SSN and SSBN submarine models, as the propeller is usually a highlight of the model. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Marine Model Company and USS Trigger >> Marine Model Company was in business when I started making wooden boat models about 40 years ago. They were purchased by North River Models in New Jersey about 10 years ago, and I think Model Expo then bought them. I have been looking for an unbuilt model of the USS Trigger for some time. I think it was originally about $40.00. Tom: are you interested in selling yours? << Again, my apologies for being behind in SMML, I was traveling for my company and am still catching up. I would like to respectfully suggest that when individuals are interested in contacting other list members about their potential interest in unsolicited private sales transactions, they do not "call out" their names individually in this forum. This is the second time this individual has done this on this particular matter. It is quite different from asking if anyone on the list is interested in selling a kit, or in responding to another individual offering to sell. Shane goes to the trouble of placing everyone's email address at the top of each post, and common courtesy to the individual and other list members would suggest that such specific requests as that listed above be taken offline. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Puget Sound to play role as 21st century Navy takes shape http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/printer2/index.asp?ploc=b -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Jeff Herne, NJAHOF" Subject: Hull numbers on turret tops I have only seen this practice on Ms 21 and 22 ships that were on sea trials and working up. I have never seen this practice carried over to combat area photos, nor have I seen this practice applied to Ms 31, 32, or 33 camouflaged ships. Jeff Herne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: LYRAD801@cs.com Subject: Painting 1:700 ships Hi, A couple of days ago, I bought a 1:700 scale ship (Tamiya's HMS Nelson). While the detail and parts fit are good, I'm baffeled as how to paint all those tiny molded-on deck fixtures. I think the paint I'm using is a bit of a problem, rather old and thick. Would a paint marker, or even regular markers work? I really don't feel like masking the death out of this ship. Or I could just stick to 1:350 :) Thanks in advance. Hi Daryl, I find that a fresh bottle of paint will always help in these circumstances. When I built the Tamiya Rodney (many eons ago), I handpainted the deck details with a very fine brush. On some of the smaller details, only the tops got painted as trying to get it flush with the deck lead to headaches from peering too closely and re-painting said details and deck again and again;-). When I tackle the Tamiya Nelson later on this year (I live in hope ;-) ), I'll post pictures on how I did it. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: JKrakow@aol.com Subject: Re: Connely's new "in Action" book Thank you Garth! Any estimate on when the book will be out? Does anybody know when the Revell S-100 will be available from US retailers? Dave Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: German aircraft carrier I just received a catalog form Model Expo, which lists a plastic ship kit of "Graf Zeppelin Aircraft Carrier" in 1:720 scale, at a special sale price of $9.47, down from $18.95. Was (or is) there such a vessel as a German aircraft carrier? SMML comments are solicited. Thanks. Franklyn Hi Franklyn, In short, yes there was a German Aircraft Carrier called the Graf Zeppelin. Actually there was two, but the second one was sold to Russia whilst still on the slipway. She was launched, but never completed and was eventually captured by the Russians at the end of WW2. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Mike C" Subject: Re: Brass PE for S-100 Marc, you're looking at it as a consumer trying to save some money. "Marketing and Retailing" practices everywhere demand that the most important parts are split so you'll NEED to have them both! Separating you from your money is what marketing is all about! ;-D Actally, it's more a matter of what fits, either for the manufacturing or packaging considerations. Often, in sets with multiple thicknesses, parts look better in one size rather than the other. You don't appreciate the full effect until they're assembled. I'm sure the S-100 sheets will be worth having as a set. Mike C -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: URUDOFSKY@aol.com Subject: The Sex of Ships A lot has been said about the sex of a ship and its male or female appellation, as if it were of great importance. Was it not "Bismarck's" Captain Lindemann or even the Admiral Lütjens himself who had to tell their crew that their ship, from now on, is a man? "Prinz Eugen" also is a "he" in the German Navy (although some historians have questioned the namesake Prince of Savoy's outlook on life): der (male) Prinz is the only customary name for this great ship. And there are many other warships with male gender appellations in the German Navy. No one in my past ever dared refer to the heavy cruiser as "die Prinz Eugen" (female gender) and lived to tell about it, always as "der (male) Prinz Eugen"; however, the German Navy Press and publications, requiem cards, and correspondence to the bereaved, used the female gender "die Bismarck" consistently, as if it were a common passenger liner or more likely, a national concept and not a person. If they had named the ship "Reichskanzler or Fürst Bismarck", there would have had no problem with the masculine gender. Some of this has to do with the complexities of the German Grammar and with the type and title of the ship: Kreuzer is masculine, Schlachtschiff is neuter etc., and some with a person's title like Prinzessin or Prinz define the sex of the ship. For example: der (male) Kreuzer Karlsruhe, but die (female) Karlsruhe; die Amazone, but der Bussard. Bismarck's gender (sex) had to be spelled out oddly enough and specifically by her/his captain or, perhaps, even her/his admiral himself, since they did not attach a title to the name like Chancellor, Queen, Prince, Professor or Admiral or Kaiser. Personally, don't you agree, that this problem of he/she ship's sex has no realistic significance in the history of warfare? Perhaps to psychoanalysts and propaganda buffs it may be a cause for further intense study. I think in German and in English sex of a ship's name should follow Duke Ellington's dictum: "If it sound good, it is good!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: david_l._miller@ccmail.wiu.edu Subject: PT boat hulls To Bradford Chaucer: I don't think POB or POF hulls for a PT boat would be a pain to build. They are a very simple hull compared to a clipper ship, or a hull like the USS Constitution or Rattlesnake. Anyway, when I lived in England I ran across a small company that made vacuform hulls. These were formed in port and starboard halves that you glued together. Also, they were made of a thicker plastic than you get with some vacuform models. You could do a nice PT hull with this method. I bought a hull for a Clyde Puffer. This would be great for a display model, although these hulls were billed as also suitable for RC. Regards, Dave Miller Macomb, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Essex "classes" >> Oddly, I just learned the USN regard the long-hull Essex's as Ticonderoga cl ships. Again, probably nothing new to some here, but I found it interesting.. The only one I was aware of prior to this was a reference in JFS about them being Essex and Hancock cl ships. Seems there is an official USN nomenclature separator here. << I've been off-line for a couple of days (and got 5 updates!!). If this has been covered, please forgive me for being redundant. The later "classes" were inventions of the Navy to distinguish the various versions in service. Here is the original class "as-built" breakdown: ESSEX Class CV: Essex, Yorktown, Intrepid, Hornet, Franklin, Lexington, Bunker Hill, Wasp, Bennington, and Bon Homme Richard TICONDEROGA class CV: Ticonderoga, Randolph, Hancock, Boxer, Leyte, Kearsarge, Antietam, Princeton, Shangri-La, Lake Champlain, Tarawa, Valley Forge, and Philippine Sea ORISKANY class CV: Oriskany Here is the class breakdown: ANTIETAM Class CVS: Antietam Modified SCB-27A (I have sometimes heard this called the missing "SCB-27B") HANCOCK Class CVA: Oriskany, Bon Homme Richard, Hancock SCB-125A (34), SCB-125/27C with some SCB-125 mods (19, 31) - Steam Cats INTREPID Class CVA: Shangri-La, Ticonderoga, Intrepid SCB-27C/125/144 FRAM II - Steam Cats ESSEX Class CVS: Kearsarge, Bennington, Wasp, Randolph, Hornet, Yorktown, Essex SCB-27A/125/144 FRAM II - Hydr. Cats LEXINGTON Class CVT: Lexington SCB-27C/125 - Steam Cats, with later updates in 70s & 80s (SCB-125B? or FRAM III?) BOXER class LPH: Boxer, Princeton, Valley Forge original TICOs with SCB-144 FRAM II updates ORISKANY class CVA: Lake Champlain SCB-27A but no other updates TICONDEROGA class AVT: Leyte, Tarawa & Philippine Sea AVTs in original TICO config. with armament modifications/removals ESSEX Class AVT: Franklin, Bunker Hill were both fully repaired and held in reserve for conversion, original config. w/o armaments. Much of this information taken from the 9th ed. Ships & Aircraft of the US Fleet (1972). It makes sense once the differences are pointed out. James Corley AAA Hobby Supply email: aaahobby@earthlink.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "William B. Smallshaw" Subject: Re: PT Boats Bill had to open this thread, I do appreciate his question in what PT boats would people like to see. First, my preference for scale is 1/72 for the reasons that others had stated. The boats that I would like to see are as follows: 78' Higgins 77' ELCO 70' ELCO 70' Higgins Hellcat 78' Huckins conversion kit for the Revell 80' Elco to later model boats (WEM, keep thinking about this one!) The smaller ELCO boats not only have the history with the US navy, they saw extensive action in the RN. These boats would provide endless options for representing coastal craft from both navies. I do not think I should start on the MTBs that I would like to see, a real 70' Vosper would be a good start on the long list. I do like the suggestion of a vacuum form hull. A resin hull would be too heavy. I have done the plank on frame drill with the Dumas wood kit. This would be tough to do in 1/72, but I have considered it to scratch build the above mentioned boats. Bill -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: PT Model in wood >> Also bear in mind that a PT hull has concave curves on cross section, and may be some what tricky to plank. << Hi; I tried to built a large PT109 model 25+ years ago (Dumas?). Plank on frame with some nasty compound, concave curves! I used much glue, wood putty, and beer. I never did finish the beast. It sort of changed my mind about R/C boats. Chuck Duggie WoodenWalls Listmeister eGroups : WoodenWalls Naval wargamer, amateur naval historian, and ship modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Geoff Baker" Subject: Re: Soviet Warship Colours I know this topic has been raised before and i've decided on the Grey and the Red Deck colour but i've noticed in some photographs that the main deck on some ships is a much darker blood red, any ideas as what this is and what colour should be used to represent it. I dont think its a simple case of the deck being wet as i recall seeing the same on a Sovermenny docked for the Battle of Atlantic review at Liverpool Also on Soviet colours what colour would you use for the flight deck on a Kiev class carrier? Thanks Geoff Baker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Geoff Baker" Subject: HMS Andrew website Does anybody remember the HMS Andrew website from a few years ago, I think the guy went off to college and lost his web space. However I was wondering if anybody downloaded all those wonderful 1/600 scale colour drawings he posted for Royal Navy vessels 1939-1999, or does someone know a new address for the site. Thanks Geoff Baker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Doug Marrel" Subject: S-130 S-boat I have a 1:40 scale platic RC model from Robbe of Austria of an alleged S 130. S boat. Has anyone else seen,built or heard of this kit, or of a real S130 boat? What I am facing can be summed up by the paint suggestions Dark grey and light grey. Which weirdly enough may be accurate. It does match fairly well to the plan photo of a 1943 S100 class on the prinz Eugen website, except it has a twin 2cm in the center gunmount, the same as the Revell kit. Anyone have any suggestions on where to get a nice large plan set of a S100 S boat? Obviously, the WEM brass won't fit on it :) I smell a detailing project coming on. Does the Classic Warship#15 have good coverage of the 100 class boats Thx in advance Doug p.s. what is that funky tube that is in between the barrels of a Flakzwilling 38 mount? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: S-100 Photoetch Price >> Whew, that list of parts sure does explain the price (I think I've heard the figure is in the neighborhood of $50). << Not so. We've now got enough information to project a price for WEM PE 7201. It will consist of 2 sheets, relief-etched on 2 thicknesses of brass (8 thou, and 5 thou). The work will go to the etchers this week, and we should have the finished product ready to ship in 2 weeks. Projected worldwide price will be 25.49 Pounds (about $36.00), post-free of course. UK/EU price will be 29.95 Pounds. Get 'em while they're hot! Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Modern Russian Gray and Mauretania >> Finally, I'm going to begin construction on my 1/600 scale Airfix Moskva. Now I will see just how good Peter Hall's detail set makes this oldie but goodie look. I have never built a modern era Russian warship. It appears as though the gray used on the hull and superstructure compares very close to US warships. Am I wrong here? << Oh Rusty, Rusty...if only you were more patient.... I think you'll find the Russian grey quite different from USN Haze Gray. If you weren't pressing for Virginia Beach, well...it seems that my good friend/partner Randy Short has obtained samples of the Russian grey, Russian deck red, and Russian deck green. They're on their way to me right now, and will be added to our upcoming series of modern Colourcoats paints. But they won't be ready in time to meet your schedule. >> I know Plastic Ship Modeler ran an article on the Aquitania or Mauretania and her W.W.I dazzle scheme does anyone know any of the particulars on this scheme. My scant references indicate these large ship schemes were one offs for each ship. And I am going nuts trying to find this issue of Plastic Ship Modeler. Actually any information on the big liner dazzle schemes would be appreciated. I have been waiting years to do by Airfix 1/600 Mauritania in a dazzle scheme. << Hi Michael, I've got good news, and better news. The issue of PSM that carried the article on MAURETANIA (including both port and starboard camo patterns) was 1997/4, and we still have a few issues in stock, priced at 3.50 Pounds + postage at cost. Beyond that, we have a mint copy of "Liners in Battledress", written by the same David Williams who just published "Naval Camouflage, 1914-1945." If you're interested in the subject of wartime camo on liners, it's a great book. Price is 49.00 Pounds + postage at cost. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: John Snyder Subject: PT Boats As long as the subject is at the fore, it's probably worth announcing that our 1/350 PT-34 (77' Elco) is being cast right now, and the photoetch is already on hand. We should be ready to ship the kit (NS 008) very soon. Orders being taken now. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume