Subject: SMML VOL 1608 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:14:36 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Essex/Ticonderoga-class mayhem 2: Re: PT Boats - My own selfish wishes 3: German aircraft carriers 4: Re: Connely's new "in Action" book 5: Re: Soviet Warship Colours 6: Re: Why a ship is called she 7: Re: Soviet color chips? 8: Re: 1:48 PT Boats, Anyone? 1:72? 9: Re: Hull numbers on turret tops 10: Taiwanese chapparall 11: Pt boats 12: Re: Mikasa colours 13: Re: computer added color 14: Re: RMS Aquitania 15: New WEM 77' ELCO PT boat: 16: Scale ruler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Clasic Warship Order -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: raisingirl@mindspring.com Subject: Essex/Ticonderoga-class mayhem hello all.... To add further to the Essex/Ticonderoga-class confusion, I'd like to take note of some things in James Corley's breakdown of the class, and make some notes and clarifications based on my 15 years of studying this class of ships. (Note to James: this ain't directed at you! It's directed at the source the information came from....) >> ANTIETAM Class CVS: Antietam Modified SCB-27A (I have sometimes heard this called the missing "SCB-27B") << Antietam was a case unto herself because, aside from her angled deck, she really wasn't that terribly extensively modified. She had more in common with the ships the became LPHs (Boxer, Princeton, Valley Forge) than with the -27As. She got the modifications those three unconverted ships did (i.e. pole mainmast, etc.) but none of the more visible -27A modifications we think of, like the widened hull or the remodeled island. Of course, since Antietam retained her fixed-wing capability, they probably effected some upgrades to that equipment. >> HANCOCK Class CVA: Oriskany, Bon Homme Richard, Hancock SCB-125A (34), SCB-125/27C with some SCB-125 mods (19, 31) - Steam Cats INTREPID Class CVA: Shangri-La, Ticonderoga, Intrepid SCB-27C/125/144 FRAM II - Steam Cats << This classification (on the part of the original author, not James) could be a bit confusing because although the ships may have been outfitted kind of similarly, they were the products of three "flights" that created some very unique configurations so far as decks and placement of equipment. They were: SCB-27C, SCB-125 in two yard periods: Intrepid, Ticonderoga, Hancock SCB-27C, SCB-125 in same yard period: Lexington, Bonnie Dick, Shangri-La SCB-27A, then SCB-125A: Oriskany (only ship to receive a -125A) The author may have been taking into consideration similar capabilities (i.e. which ships received FRAM modernizations and which didn't) but this classification can be confusing if you're not aware of the three "flights." Each "flight" of modernized ships had very distinct differences in flight deck shape, hull configuration (i.e. position of the starboard elevator and B&A crane), shape of the hurricane bow, etc., etc. To add even further to the confusion, even if a ship was converted to -27C/-125/-144 (FRAM II) and "reclassified" as a CVS, they could still be called upon to serve as attack carriers, as Intrepid rather famously did off Vietnam. And don't even get me *started* on the -27A ships, which are my babies! ;) jodie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Don and Susan Leonard Subject: Re: PT Boats - My own selfish wishes I know the original post asked about 1/48 or 1/72, but I have to ask: assuming display space is not an issue, wouldn't the following be nice? An 80' Elco PT, available in early- and late-war variants, in 1:32 or 1:35 scale (1:35 would probably be better, because a lot of aftermarket armor details like cal.50's, etc would be transferable). Hull could be vacuform, in slightly thicker plastic, as another poster referenced. Formed in two halves, the assembled hull could be reinforced with sheet styrene, plastic or brass rod, or even poured resin to make it more substantial. Chine and sheer clamps could be applied plastic strip, like on the Bluejacket kit, if sharp enough detail could not be achieved through vac-forming. The deck would probably have to be vac-formed and reinforced to achieve the appropriate camber. Torpedo tubes could be built up from brass tube and photo-etch a la Bluejacket, or more conveniently, cast in resin; deckhouses, etc from resin and sheet styrene; miscellaneous details in resin, britannia metal, and photoetch. I can dream, can't I? Incidentally, I'm working my through the Bluejacket Elco kit, and having a blast; it's a nice diversion for a resin- and styrene-guy. I stopped at the Bluejacket factory last summer (I live about an hour south) and was fortunate enough to find Mr. Ross there. He was very friendly and helpful, taking the time to answer all of my dumb questions in great detail. How wonderful to be able to learn from the person who has total knowledge of the kit! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: German aircraft carriers Thanks, Shane, for the info on the German aircraft carrier(s) "Graf Zeppelin". But that brings up another question(s). Were the German-built carriers the first ones in the Russian Navy? Did the Russians procure any subsequent to the German vessels? Given the currently sorry state of the Russian military, I doubt if they have any at the present time. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: PT191@aol.com Subject: Re: Connely's new "in Action" book You're welcome Dave! I always give credit where credit's due. As for my guess-a-mate for when the book will be out? Well, I will be starting the layout today (with my parent's help - due to my Cerebral Palsy, I can't do myself) ... and seeing how far we get today - guessing since we've done two already for my PT and Vosper books - it'll probably go very quickly - since we're old hats at this now, if we don't finish it today, we'll finish it next weekend, (the folks don't have time to work on it during the week) since I work full time and the nights are filled with the preparations for the following day. It'll probably be put into the mail to Texas by the end of the week after next. And, depending on the length of the printing que at Squadron, it'll be out either later this year or early 2003! I'm hoping it will be 2002! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Mike Potter Subject: Re: Soviet Warship Colours For their visit to San Diego in 1990 Soviet navy destroyer BOYEVOY (SOVREMENNYY class) was painted in noticeably darker gray than ADMIRAL VINGRADOV (UDALOY class). Their main decks were plated and had the sheen and color of gunmetal gray. Upper decks and deck-edge trim were painted rust brown. Their waterlines were painted white. The Jane's group published color aerial photographs of ADMIRAL VINGRADOV during the international review at Mumbai last year. If they're no longer on line, e-mail me and I'll send them off list. Best regards, Mike Potter San Diego, Calif., USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Jeffon10@cs.com Subject: Re: Why a ship is called she A totally non-politically correct answer as to why ships are referred to in the female gender is from our are from British friends: "They are one and all a high maintenance bit of kit and consume enormous quantities of powder and paint." Carry on! Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Soviet color chips? >> Oh Rusty, Rusty...if only you were more patient.... I think you'll find the Russian grey quite different from USN Haze Gray. If you weren't pressing for Virginia Beach, well...it seems that my good friend/partner Randy Short has obtained samples of the Russian grey, Russian deck red, and Russian deck green. They're on their way to me right now, and will be added to our upcoming series of modern Colourcoats paints. But they won't be ready in time to meet your schedule. << Okay John, I'll do the 1/350 Knox first. BTW, any chance of the Soviet gray color being at the Nats in Va. Beach? Also, are the Modern Soviet colors going to be included on any of the S&S paint chip sets? If so, any chance they will be at Va. Beach? Rusty White 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention Chairman OKC IN 2003! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Jeffon10@cs.com Subject: Re: 1:48 PT Boats, Anyone? 1:72? I've recently read much about proposed PT kits in this forum. My choice is a 1/72 early Elco boat, as a representative of those cornered in the Philippines in 1941. I may have left some out some hull numbers but generally they were in the group PT 34-41. If there's is a manufacturer out there willing to mold one of these, FYI I found a photo of them taken on 6 Dec 41 by a Canadian ship. And BTW, they have the plexiglass covers removed from the twin MG's and have the "Disney-like cartoon" of a mosquito carrying a torpedo on the bridge sides. (Where the numbers were will cost yah.) Regards, Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: annobon4@aol.com Subject: Re: Hull numbers on turret tops Hi Jeff I read your message. I agree that I have found no photos in the combat areas with hull numbers on turret roofs. Only bow numbers.However if you own Floating Drydocks USN Camouflage of the WW2 era. On page 24 there is two nice photo's of the USS Hank DD-702 in Measure 31 /16D. The paint job is pristene. After using a magnifying glass it appears a shake down cruise shot as civilians are a board and some sailors have white hats. Not dark blue dyed ones. But hull numbers on roofs were applied to Measure 31 ships. Craig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: Taiwanese chapparall http://www.emeraldesigns.com/matchup/destroyer.htm http://warships1.com/TAIf1202_KDing-LD.jpg http://www.emeraldesigns.com/matchup/transport.htm here are some pic's not great ones but bets I could find -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: Pt boats gee 1/72 scale, that's child's play , I want 1/700 scale!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Mikasa colours In Warship International no.1, 1982 there was an article "Painting System of IJN 1904-1945" by Linton Wells II. Acoording to the one of the footnotes to the article :"...prior to 1907, especjally, grey paint also varied between shipyards due to the difficulty of standardizing paint-mixing components." I have no firm informations about 1894 scheme but from various photos it appears that earlier japanese ships used much lighter grey colour scheme than that from Russo-Japanese War. A note of caution, there is a friendly dispute still going on between people interested in Japanese pre-dreadnoughts. Some are happy with Grunze's C-32 grey while others prefer the 3 (white) to 1 (black) ratio mentioned by Falk in his article in PSM. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: computer added color >> Check out color plates in Naval Camouflage 1914-1945 from the Naval Institute. It has a great colorized shot of RMS Olympic as a troopship with a wild scheme of cream, two shades of blue, black and red brown. Of course stating that it is computer generated and not original. << Mike, I think this is where some people would say that colorizing is a bad thing to do, as the colorization you speak of, in my belief is very wrong. I do not believe that colors that bright were ever used. For a more realistic version of that particular scheme, look at page 71 of "The Great Liners" from the "Seafarers" series by Time-Life Books. Those are copies of the original camo pattern diagrams from Wilkinson. The colors used on the liners were White, Light Gray, Medium Gray, Medium Blue and Dull Black. All of the grays have a touch of blue in them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: RMS Aquitania >> I know Plastic Ship Modeler ran an article on the Aquitania or Mauretania and her W.W.I dazzle scheme does anyone know any of the particulars on this scheme. My scant references indicate these large ship schemes were one offs for each ship. And I am going nuts trying to find this issue of Plastic Ship Modeler. Actually any information on the big liner dazzle schemes would be appreciated. I have been waiting years to do by Airfix 1/600 Mauritania in a dazzle scheme. << Mike, Again, go to the book I talked about in an earlier post today. It has one side only of about four ships with different patterns, but it will give a very good idea as to the colors. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ed Grune Subject: New WEM 77' ELCO PT boat: Okay John - I'm going to need this one too. I've already been contacted to make one of these for an Asiatic Fleet Veterans reunion sometime this fall. Do you have some advance photos of the hull master and the brass. Any suggestions as to how to make the early plexiglass/perspex ball-turret .50 caliber machine gun mounts - or will they be included in the kit? Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Kathy/Pirie Sublett" Subject: Scale ruler Completely off any recent topic, would any of our manufacturers produce a 1/700 and 1/350 scale rule? Any of us who have been model railroaders know how indispensible this tool is. I would like to have two: one in metal (which could incorporate 1/400 and 1/600, too, and one in a good stiff clear plastic. I thought someone offered this product in the long ago, but I can't find a reference. Pirie Sublett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Clasic Warship Order >> does anyone know how long it takes to get an order from Clasic Warships. I sent an e-mail to Thier site, but then I lost aol so I don't know if they responded or not. Mr Wiper if you did respond thank you, however i never recived it, cause my e-mail changed. Please send response to iaafru2@surfside.net Thank You George Frey << If you go to my web site, there is a button that says "How to Order". What ever you do, DO NOT PUSH THAT BUTTON!!! www.classicwarships.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume