Subject: SMML VOL 1627 Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:50:41 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: What to do in Philadelphia 2: What to do in Philadelphia? 3: Re: To see in Philadelphia 4: Re: What to do in Philadelphia 5: movie mistakes 6: Philadelphia 7: Re: dogs and ex-wives 8: Re: What to do in Philadelphia 9: Re: computer added color 10: Re: What to do in Philadelphia 11: carcinogenic 12: The Bedford Incident 13: 1/72 HMCS Snowberry 14: What to do in Philadelphia 15: Falkland War analogy 16: Re: Philly sites 17: Sea Slice and Sea Shadow 18: Re: Trip to Philly -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bob Zobal Subject: Re: What to do in Philadelphia >> I am going to be in Philly for a meeting next week and wondered what to see. I'll have part of Sunday and all of Monday free. We'll be staying downtown but I can get a cab. I know about the New Jersey and plan on seeing her. What's the best way to get over there? What else is a "must see"? << There are still 4 Missouri class battleships, but only one USS Olympia (Dewey's flagship from Manila Bay), the only surviving US warship from the predreadnought era since the Oregon was casually scrapped during WW2. Well preserved and restored to her 1898 configuration, although the main turrets are mock-ups. After crawling inside the conning tower, you can understand why Dewey chose to stand on the bridge during the battle. When I visited about 7 years ago, the Frankin Institute had some nice models of Cramp warships, including the 1880's gunboat Yorktown, 1890's cruiser Minneapolis, and Variag (US-built Russian cruiser sunk at the start of the Russo-Japanese war). Don't know if these are builder's models or not. If you stop by, see if you can find out. Enjoy your trip. Bob Zobal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: What to do in Philadelphia? For starters don't miss the Independence Seaport Museum on the Delaware River at Penn's Landing. (http://phillyseaport.org) There you'll see the submarine BECUNA as well as the protected cruiser OLYMPIA. Photos I took of this ancient vessel can be seen at: http://www.steelnavy.com/Olympiatour.htm Just south of the museum is the four-masted iron barque MOSHULU which is now an upscale restaurant. Worth seeing (and eating there). About a mile and a half south of the Seaport is moored the decaying S.S. UNITED STATES. No visitors, but you can take good photos from the roof of your car if you wish. Philadelphia's science museum is called The Franklin Institute and is conveniently located near Logan Circle in the center of the city. There is enough of nautical interest here to keep you busy for hours. One mile up Franklin Parkway from the Franklin Institute on the Schuylkill River is the Philadelphia Art Museum which has a nice display of maritime art. Sadly, the Philadelphia Naval Base has been closed and is managed by a private contractor. Despite some ships of the reserve fleet being moored here there is a strict "no visitors" policy. Still, you can drive by and have a look. About 15 miles north and a bit west is Willow Grove Naval Air Station where you can see, through the fence, a line-up of captured Axis aircraft, along with older naval aircraft. Four miles from this is Johnsville Naval Air Development Center (NAS Warminster) where the astronauts trained on the centrifuge. Just south of the International Airport is Essington, Pennsylvania, the home of Boeing Vertol, where the CH-46 Seaknight and CH-47 Chinook helicopters are manufactured. Piasecki Helicopter Company built their H-21 and H-25 helos near the main airport in years past. In West Chester is the Helicopter Museum with a great display of choppers past. Pick up a tour guide: Philadelphia can keep you busy for years. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis (where he lives now, but who grew up in...Philadelphia) Nautical Research Guild -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: BECJPARKER@aol.com Subject: Re: To see in Philadelphia The Olympia is in Philly at the seaport museum (not the right name for it) down on the river.. You can catch a water taxi to the New Jersey at the museum and get a discounted ticket there. There is also a Guppy class sub and the museum has some nice models. The USS United States is also docked there but I don't know if you can get on her. The old Navy Yard has a number of ships and facilities there but after 911 it will be hard for non- military or DoD folks to get in. If you want to try get a hold of their public affaires officer before hand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Gonya Family Subject: Re: What to do in Philadelphia >> I am going to be in Philly for a meeting next week and wondered what to see. I'll have part of Sunday and all of Monday free. We'll be staying downtown but I can get a cab. I know about the New Jersey and plan on seeing her. What's the best way to get over there? What else is a "must see"? << Steven, Olympia!!! The museum isn't bad either. Then drive South along the waterfront and see The big U, the S.S.United States The worlds fastest Liner. Even in her neglected state she is still a beautiful sight. Aaron Gonya -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: movie mistakes I was watching Tv early yesterday morning & I happened to catch 48 hours & there was a person talking about film mistakes & how people spend their hole time crounching for mistakes..so I thought I'd have a gander..well here's on Tora Tora Tora... seems simple mistakes considering it was filmed in 1970 so how could they hide any modern stuff..tomorrow will be Pearl harbour the movie... Tora! Tora! Tora! Just before the attack of Pearl Harbour, the sorte of kamakasi planes fly over the Hawaiian country-side and over a large white cross that was erected in memory of the people that died in the attack that they are about to engage in. The crash landing of the B17 was real. During the filming, one of the bombers could not lower its right landing gear, so the producers rushed a crew to the airport, to film the bomber's crash landing. During the attack a parked US plane is blown up and the prop goes cartwheeling off along the runway. Not wishing to waste a perfectly good explosion the director filmed this from several different angles and used the same explosion several times. You can easily see the prop each time. In the opening scene of Washington DC the building on the left is the Museum of American History which wasn't built until around 1959. In the deck scenes of the U.S.S. Nevada, she has three fourteen inch guns mounted in each of her four turrents. The Nevada did have triple mount guns, but only in the first and third. The second and third turrets only had two. While it's touted as being an "accurate" Historical Film, there is one aspect that is wrong; none of the B-17 Bombers had problems with their landing gear during the attack. During the attack there is a scene where a ground crew is trying to tow a PBY away from the fires. You can tell it is a fiberglass mockup because the bottom is cracked and jiggling from the stress of the tow vehicle. In any scene when they are pulling the B-17's around, those aren't the right ones. The earlier B-17's had no tail gunner. They weren't added until shortly after the US entered the war. Before then, the pilot would fishtail so that the port and starboard gunners would have a short time to shoot at pople coming from behind them. Take a look at the harbor tug, fighting the fires on the battleships, it sports a TV antenna The relatively famous scene where a japanese pilot, often attributed as Lt. Fusata Iida, crashes his damaged plane into a hangar does not match the historical records. Iida was shot down, possibly by a sailor named Sands, but he crashed into a road near the married officers quarters and was instantly killed. The rumor that he hit a hangar is based on the mistaken report of fellow pilot Iyozo Fujita, which in turn was probably based on a comment made by Iida before the attack, where if asked what he would do if his plane was damaged, he replied that he would try to crash his plane into a hangar. Alas, history denied him that. In the scene where the first wave of attackers are being launched from their carriers, we see one Nakajima B5N Kate torpedo/high-level bomber take off with only the pilot in it. The Kate was a 3-man aircraft; where were his bombarder and radioman? When the Japanese aircraft are on the way to bomb Pearl Harbor, the fly over a microwave relay tower with distinctive antennas, not invented until the 1960's. there are a few minor ones, like the jeep is a 1960's style ford, not a willey jeep from the 40's, but again, it would be hard to re-create 1941 Pearl harbour in 1970..i seme to recall one old movie set in some ancient time in the top corner is a 707 just going in & out of screen.. wil have to watch tora Tora Tora again to spot these little bloops...how many did YOU spot?! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: mjdcdam@comcast.net Subject: Philadelphia In Philadelphia at Penn's Landing there is the USS Olympia from the Spanish American war and the USS Becuna a WWII submarine. This is right across the river from the New Jersey and I believe there is a ferry running between the sites. Last year I went to the Franklin Institute (snuck away from a kids party at the please touch museum across the street) and was disappointed that the ship model collection that I vaguely remember from about 20 years ago has been replaced by a sports science area. It's still a great place but there is now essentially nothing on ships :'( [most of the airplane models look like they've been battling cats and dogs but that's another subject] Almost forgot the Mariner's museum is also at Penn's Landing, haven't been inside though. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "bruce simard" Subject: Re: dogs and ex-wives LDJohnson Wrote: >> The damage was bad enough, but having to cleanup cat chunder,,,, << Hmmmmm, Somehow I think I just might reinvent the "Catapult"!!! 0 to 40 knots in 2 swings! Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Mike Potter Subject: Re: What to do in Philadelphia The true must-see is the Philadelphia art museum, one of the world's finest collections. Ship connection: It has the original Impressionist painting of the sinking of CSS ALABAMA near Cherbourg. Naval items of interest along the riverfront include: - The old cruiser OLYMPIA and a WW2/Guppy diesel submarine next to her. - A maritime museum, next to OLYMPIA. - The ocean liner SS UNITED STATES. If you are pleasant to the guard, he may offer you a tour by the security watchman. - A large fleet of decommissioned USN ships at the old Navy Yard. - USS New Jersey, as you say. You might be able to rent a car for a day for less than total cab fares. Regards, Mike Potter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: computer added color >> I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. The colorized image of Olympic is based on very early secondary sources from White Star themselves: promotional materials that showed the ship in those colors. The same holds true for the gaudy scheme portrayed for Mauretania. I have the Time-Life book too, but until there's a better specific historical citation for the colors referenced there, other than they were simply the colors on Wilkinson's pattern sheets, I think both must be regarded as having some historical basis. Between them, the British and Americans had around 200 colors in use in camouflage schemes during the WW1 period, and it is entirely possible that Wilkinson's patterns were used, but with other colors. What we need to settle this one is direct, primary source material pertinent to what was actually applied to the ships. << John, I agree with your last sentence, but!!!!!!!!, as I understood, the promotional material you mentioned is just that, Promotional! I believe that there was a large amount of artistic license taken there. People want to see lots of flashy colors, not just a bunch of different grays. I do not remember where I read this, but I do remember that the PROMOTIONAL POSTERS that you speak of were done by commercial artist for the Promotion of these ships, so it would be reasonable to assume the use of those colors is fictitious. I know. I know. ASSUME. A very bad word in this business, but sometimes, that is all there is. After being lucky enough actually see a large amount of the original design sheets of W.W.I camo patterns in color for the USN and US merchant ships, most designed from British origins, I lean very strongly towards the Gray's. True. There were some other bright color used, but very sparingly. Not like the promotional posters you speak of. Anyway. This all makes for good conversation and debate. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "GARY SCHURR" Subject: Re: What to do in Philadelphia Check out the New Jersey, use the water taxi, also at Penns Landing are the USS Olympia, USS Becuna, Tall Ship Gazela, the Maritime Museum and a couple of other goodies. A 10min ride south on I95 will take you past the Navy Yard and a view of dozens of mothballed ships. In Center City, the Franklin Institute has (had?) some great ship models. Enjoy your stay! Gary Schurr -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Jansen, Matthijs" Subject: carcinogenic Wow, wat did I read on the SMML site? Is resin dust carcinogenic? That sounds really scary, especially because I posted a message two mailings ago about the fact that I wanted to start with resin casting. By the way, thanks for the reply Michael London. Are there more unhealthy things about modelling? Is putty-dust also carcinogenic? I Know that paint-spray isn't good for your lungs but warnings about cancer, I think I'll just stay with styrene if that is true. Matthijs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: The Bedford Incident Any one happen to know what ship actually starred in this film? Other than the Navy News site, is there a site that lists warships in movies? Michael Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "David Clark" Subject: 1/72 HMCS Snowberry Phill Have a look at Bob Pearson's Flower Class Corvette website. It should answer some of your questions and provide a means of answering the rest. Bob's site is: http://www.cbrnp.com/RNP/flower/index.htm I am making slow progress with my Flower - at this stage intended to be HMS Clarkia - but Bob's site and the Corvette mailing list provide inspiration and advice. David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: schiefet@cs.com Subject: What to do in Philadelphia Steve, Check out the Olympia and WWII sub. They are in Philly, right across the river from USS New Jersey. I also managed to get onto the old navy base at Philly to see the mothball fleet. Steve Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Falkland War analogy >> Hard to imagine it was 20 years ago yesterday that the Argentine govt invaded the Falklands & I thought I heard that 200 Argentine soldiers were killed yet when they returned they were ignored by the govt & nearly 400 had committed suicide over since the end of the war..guess it was their Vietnam << I think the Vietnam analogy to the Falklands war is a bit off the mark, unless you really want to compare the Videla/Galtieiri regime with the US governments of Johnson and Nixon..... Pieter Cornelissen Delft the Netherlands Who is still planning to start working on that Karel Doorman / Veinticinco de Mayo this year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: BECJPARKER@aol.com Subject: Re: Philly sites The correct name of the museum is the Indpendance Seaport Museum the web page is: http://phillyseaport.org it will give you an overview of the museum. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Sea Slice and Sea Shadow >> If its a warship what else can it carry as armaments as there seem room for little else once the support facilities for the helicopter are factored in? Littoral implies inshore. The mission therefore duplicates that of a helicopter's with few of the helicopter's versatility, speed and the ability to get in and out of a danger zone fast. There is a demand for patrol endurance to counter the threat of conventional submarines that can go where the larger nuclear submarines cannot. But the sea slug looks built for speed and again the question of mission armaments crops up. Its a strange ship indeed. << If you think SeaSlice is strange, look at Lockheed Martin's SeaShadow. I work for Lockheed and a picture of SeaShadow is opposite me. SeaSlice is more of a concept, such as the GM and Chrysler "concept vehicles", of the annual auto shows. There is a littoral fighting and streetfighter concept in the current Navy, as well as expanded stealth development testbeds and improved joint operation missions from the sea. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: LBart73@aol.com Subject: Re: Trip to Philly The U.S.S. Olympia is also in Philly. Deweys flagship at the battle of maila Bay - 1898. Larry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume