Subject: SMML VOL 1646 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:58:55 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: drydock flags 2: Re: Commissioning pennants 3: Unit Citations 4: Plans for Akron and Macon 5: Signals and Bravo flag 6: Re: Heller HMS Victory & Queen Mary 7: Wood Deck Planking 8: Re: HMS Glomorgan 9: Re: Invincible after Jutland 10: HMS Devonshire 11: Potty hierarchy 12: For those interested in Airships/airship hangars 13: union jack/heads in drydock 14: Regarding HMS Invincible...after Jutland 15: Re: HMS Invincible...after Jutland 16: Re: Japanese landing @ Wake 17: Re: What is a review 18: Re: FLAGS (IN DRYDOCK OR OTHERWISE) 19: Re: HMS Invincible...after Jutland 20: Partial Review 21: Flags and Pennants and Awards 22: Mystery frigate 23: Re: reviews 24: Re: Glamorgan's colour scheme -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Flags 2: Flags -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Rodney Lersch" Subject: Re: drydock flags There's a photo of BB36 NEVADA in drydock at Pearl Harbor and it's showing the Jack flag. The photo is at: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013627.jpg Hope this helps. Rod -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Commissioning pennants I just received a website address about commissioning pennants information. Go to: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq106-1.htm It looks like the retired CPO (whose address is cpowewax@att.net) is technically correct, in that the pennant should be flown at all times the ship is still in commissioned status. The apparent absence noted by some SMML respondents may be due to two factors. One, the pennants are so small (2.5 inches high by 6 feet long, or 2,5" hoist by 6" fly) they may not be noticeable, and Two, not all ships comply with all Navy regs. at all times (gasp !, double gasp !! I should bite my tongue !!!). There now, isn't this better than squabbling over reviews etc.? Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: MIKE.LEONARD@customs.treas.gov Subject: Unit Citations >> What means "PUC, NUC, MUC"? And what are the flags signifying these circumstances? << PUC = Presidential Unit Citation NUC = Navy Unit Citation MUC = Meritorious Unit Citation The flags would basically be long pennant versions of the ribbons worn by personnel who received these awards. Try the Naval Historical Center web site (www.history.navy.mil) for more info or a link... MWL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Plans for Akron and Macon Contact the Lakehurst Naval Airstation Historical Society. Jeff Herne NJAHOF -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Dave Shirlaw Subject: Signals and Bravo flag The "notched" flags A and B are technically known as a "burgee". Dave Shirlaw Editor, Seawaves Magazine www.seawaves.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Bishop, Paul" Subject: Re: Heller HMS Victory & Queen Mary In replay to Colm's question about veneer strips on the Victory - I too am building the Heller Victory and am planning to overlay the plastic deck with basswood strips. I ordered 1/32 x 3/32 strips from Micro Mark (http://www.micromark.com/). They look like they will go on very nice. I have a while to go yet before I put them on tho. I may also replace the plastic blocks with boxwood ones from Model Expo. If anyone has any other suggestions I would LOVE to hear them. I also have Longridges book "The Anatomy of Nelsons Ships" which is great. Paul Bishop -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Joel Labow Subject: Wood Deck Planking >> I was wondering if anyone had tried overlaying small strips of veneer onto a plastic deck? << Colm, I have seen photos of individually planked decks in scales as small as 1/200. In 1/100 scale it is perfectly feasible. My own preference for planking age of sail warships is holly...it is a virtually grainless wood which bends easily and had a lovely ivory color which comes close to the appearance of a holystoned oak deck. Best regards, Joel Labow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John Barnum" Subject: Re: HMS Glomorgan Dear Craig If you can get access to the book "The Falklands Military Machine" by Derek Oakley, there is a colour picture of the Glamorgan or sometimes called the "Glamorous G" along side a tanker at Ascension Island with the Plymouth.Page 39 The two letters on the fight deck were painted over. I believe her letters were GL. Her Pennant number D 19 on the ships sides and stern would also have been painted over. In some pictures of that time you can see a partial or complete number on the ship , this is because of weathering from the heavy seas. I was on the Southampton and the same thing happened to us during our deployment in the Falklands from July to September 82. We were in company with the Birmingham, Apollo, Bacchante and RFA Olwen. If you paint the ship as in the Falkands then everything is Grey. If you are doing pre 1982 the add the flight deck letters, pennant numbers, all bollards and fair leads and anchor cables should be white. The ships boats were red and white. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Richard Simpson Subject: Re: Invincible after Jutland >> Is the famous photo of the bow and stern of HMS Invincible protruding from the surface of the North Sea after her fatal explosion available anywhere online? Were her remains ever located and salvaged? That would certainly be an idea for a diorama that avoids all the controversy about torpedo net shelving and other midships details. << Joel, To quote from "Battlecruiser Invincible", Mr Tarrant's book on her. p114 "On 3 July 1919, the wreck was indeed located by a minesweeper, sent out under the command of Commander Bell, who fixed the position as Latitude 57 degrees 2 minutes 40 seconds North, Longitude 6 degrees 7 minutes 15 seconds East, almost exactly where Harper believed she would be found. And there she remains undisturbed, a silent was grave on the Jutland bank, thirty fathoms under the restless waves of the North Sea." For an account of a recent diving expedition to the wrecks, please see: http://www.divernet.com/wrecks/jutland1000.htm And for a bit of fun, for the sinking of a more recent HMS Invincible, please see http://www.ausbg.org/best_photos.html#invincible_sink_0101. I challenge anyone to find a net shelf on that model! (Note: There is quite a comprehensive set of pics here too and she does look nice as she goes down) Regards Richard Simpson Sydney, Oz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Barnum" Subject: HMS Devonshire Hi I am hopeing to build the Devonshire as she was during her visit to Australia in December 1965. The deck aft of her bridge around the fore mast and forward funnel is a very light colour. Could this be white? I would also like any info of the detail of the superstructure from her mainmast to the hanger. Or does any one know of an accurate model of the ship Thank you in advance John Margate , England PS. The British national flag is the Union Flag and should only be called the Union Jack when flown from the bows of a Royal Naval Ship. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Michael London" Subject: Potty hierarchy To brighten your day. From an old British Admiralty stores list:- Pots, chamber: Pots, chamber, blue rim, flag officer: Pots, chamber, rubber, lunatic: Which also reminds me of a Corps of Engineers officer who was turning over his command but was alarmed to find that a complete tugboat was unaccounted for. The list of deficient items was prepared, tongue in cheek no doubt, with the following items well buried:- Boats, gravy............1 Boats, tug...............1 Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "john fiebke" Subject: For those interested in Airships/airship hangars >> AFAIK the only real airship-airplane carriers were Acron and Macon, BTW does anyone know if plans for these ships are available? << Well, when I was growing up in Akron, their was a McDonalds near the old Zeppelin hanger that had a HUGE set of plans of the USS Akron. My family always wandered why I wanted to go to that particular fast food place. I just wanted to look at the plans. I know this doesn't help you in your search for your own set of plans, but it just reminded me of my past. My grandfather worked for Goodyear-Zeppelin and took me on a tour of the hangar. They had a modern blimp parked inside it. I didn't appreciate until then just how small a blimp is compared to an Akron/macon sized airship. I believe the hangar was built so that two Akron-class airships could be built in it, or stored in it, at the same time, so you can imagine how big it is. If you're ever in Akron, drive by the hangar. You'll be amazed. I live near the Irvine, CA Zeppelin Hangars now, and they got nothing on the big black Akron one. It looks like a giant black twinkie. J.fiebke -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Robert Morris" Subject: union jack/heads in drydock I have a photo of the USS Catskill in drydock in Sasebo in '70. The union jack is on the bow. I remember the command "shift colors" when we took to the blocks. There was a hose hooked up to the sanitary tank discharge to take care of the nastiness. Robert Morris North Benton OH USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "david harris" Subject: Regarding HMS Invincible...after Jutland >> Is the famous photo of the bow and stern of HMS Invincible protruding from the surface of the North Sea after her fatal explosion available anywhere online? Were her remains ever located and salvaged? That would certainly be an idea for a diorama that avoids all the controversy about torpedo net shelving and other midships details. << According to John Campell's book "Jutland, an analysis of the fighting" The first visit to the wreck of the Invincible was by the Royal Navy submarine G10 which sailed for the wreck on the 3rd June 1916 under orders to sink any parts of the wreck remaining above the surface to prevent the Germans from salvaging any secret material from the ship. The submarine found that the bow and stern sections had sunk by the time that they arrived and they remained on station for 48 hours searching the vicinity. This did not however prevent a desk from the Invincible washing up on the coast of Denmark which was found to contain ciphers. The Royal Navy Battlecruiser wrecks were visited by a team of divers around the 70th anniversery of the battle. They made a 30 minute TV documentary on the wrecks which had both film of the wrecks and artists impressions of how they look today. I made a recording of it and should still have it somewhere. The wrecks, including the Invincible hve been visited more recently. Please follow these links for details: http://www.divernet.com/wrecks/jutland1000.htm http://www.numa.net/history/project14/project14.htm http://www.periscopepublishing.com/Jutland%20exhibition.htm (Potentially the best link, but the photo's have not been available for a while, hopefully they will fix it one day!) For a photo of the Invincible bow and stern pointing skywards: http://jove.prohosting.com/~sinking/wwi.shtml Has some good photos of other ships sinking too. John Campbell's book was originally published in the 80's, but is now back in print in the Conway Classics range (ISBN 0-085177-750-8). I picked it up a few weeks back for £15. Regards David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Filipe C. Ramires" Subject: Re: HMS Invincible...after Jutland Hello again Joel Labow wrote: >> That would certainly be an idea for a diorama that avoids all the controversy about torpedo net shelving and other midships details. << Oh brother...not again!!! Watch out mate for incoming shells:) Do you remember the PoW diorama issue??? Well, the Invincible example is even more delicate!!! Just my 2 cents word. Regards. Filipe C. Ramires Lisboa, PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Filipe C. Ramires" Subject: Re: Japanese landing @ Wake Hi there In Morrison's book of "US Naval Operations of WWII - Vol III" he mentions that the japanese used 4 to 6 landing-crafts + 1 PC, each one with 50 men aboard (I suppose that they were really Daihatsu barges), and disembarked at Wilkes island and the southern shore of Wake. They were soldiers from the Maizuru 2nd Special Naval Landing Force. Morrison's says that they were about 1.000 troops in this landing but I have some doubts... Hope this helps. Regards. Filipe C. Ramires Lisboa, PORTUGAL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: John_Impenna@hyperion.com Subject: Re: What is a review Hi All, Sorry D.P., that dog don't hunt!!! As Joel Labow correctly states a review should be a review of the product, not photographs..I have taken publications to task for reviews that I felt were not very objective at times, but they were certainly playing fair, so to speak...I never questioned the QUALITY of their reviews, for example, Steve Wiper and Victor Baca's reviews in Model Ship Journal, the reviews in Plastic Ship Modeler, the reviews on the Steel Navy and SMML websites, etc... These are all very well done reviews and ALL of them have the actual kits in front of them...Yours was NOT a review of the kit...Yours was a review of PHOTOS of the kit and that's how I took it...Let's say that I won't be basing any opinions of the kit on your review of PHOTOS!!! Regards, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: HGYL@aol.com Subject: Re: FLAGS (IN DRYDOCK OR OTHERWISE) 1. I quote from the "Admiralty Manual of Seamanship" Volume I (B.R. 67/1) "The commissioning or masthead pendant, which is flown at the main masthead, is hoisted on the day when a warship commissions, and, except when the ship is wearing a Royal Standard or a naval distinguishing flag, it is never struck until the day on which the ship pays off. H.M. ships not in commission do not wear any colours, except that when undergoing trials before acceptance into H.M. Service they fly the Red Ensign" 2. Again from the "Admiralty Manual of Seamanship". "Afloat, the wearing of the Union Flag on the jackstaff denotes a ship of the Royal Navy and it is not allowed to be worn by any other ships." When flown from the jackstaff it is usually referred to as the Union Jack and that term has passed into common usage, incorrectly, for the national flag which is, strictly, the Union Flag. It is called "Union" Flag or Jack because the design is made up of the crosses of St. George (England), St. Andrew (Scotland), and St. Patrick (Ireland) indicating the Union of the three countries which became the United Kingdom. 3. The Bluejacket's Manual refers to the USN jack as "the Union Jack". This is because the stars on the blue field represent the number of states in the Union. 4. I presume that the rules regarding the USN commissiong pendant are similar to those in the RN. 5. In all navies, ensigns and jacks are only worn by commissioned ships. The jack is only worn when a ship is not under way. Therefore a ship in drydock, if in commission, would wear an ensign (almost certainly at the ensign staff), a jack (which can ONLY be worn at the jackstaff) and fly the commissioning pendant at the main masthead. If paid off, which is most likely if the ship is undergoing major repairs or maintenance, she would wear no colours nor fly a commissioning pendant. 6. Ensigns and jacks are worn. Standards, flags, pendants and burgees are flown. 7. In both the 1934 and 1969 International Codes of Signals, alfa and bravo (or able and baker as they were prior to the current phonetic alphabet) are swallow tailed. When flown on its own, flag alfa means "I am undergoing a speed trial". Flag bravo when flown on its own means "I am taking in or discharging explosives". Regards to all, Harold Lincoln -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "graham and melanie" Subject: Re: HMS Invincible...after Jutland mmmmmm couple of years ago program on UK tv showed a dive on HMS Queen Mary and HMS Invincible by some Royal Marines, not in deep water, and of course they are war graves -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Malcolm N. Waite" Subject: Partial Review Hi I don't know about everybody else But this is doing my head in!!!!!! Regards Malcolm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "" Subject: Flags and Pennants and Awards To Franklyn et alia: PUC, NUC, and MUC are Unit Citations, the PUC is Presidential and the highest such award, NUC is Navy, MUC is Meritorious Unit Citation and the lowest of these awards. Once awarded, they are always flown while in port. They can be found here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mcmillanj/awards/awards.html#top Also, a list of USN ship awards can be found here: http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/o1650.htm at Enclosure 3. They are alphabetical; check and see if the ship you are modeling deserves an award! Yet more on flags and pennants: Chapter 12, section 8 of US Navy Regulations (Navy Regs can be found here: http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/regs.htm)(you'll need Adobe acrobat reader, they are .PDF files), provides direction for the display of the national ensign, union jack (US Navy's words, not mine), personal flags and pennants, and commission pennants. It looks like the commissioning pennant was flown day and night, per regulation. Of course for submarines we hauled ours down when shifting colors for an underway, then all we flew was the national ensign from the bridge, which of course was lowered for submerging. For anyone interested in flags of the USN, I can't recommend the above link too highly. A few thoughts on drydock: I believe we had off-loaded all fuel, and for sure we off-loaded all weapons, and never took on any of same while in dock, so I don't believe we ever flew BRAVO flag in dock, but I suppose a surface ship (as you are modeling) could have done things differently. I don't recall what exactly we did for the heads, no doubt they were secured and we had to go and visit the drydock for their facilities, but if not, we would have just plugged in a hose to the sanitary fitting topside, just like a normal mooring. Please don't hesitate to contact me off-list if you have any questions on the award flags, or any other flags/pennants. Scott Weeks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Michael London" Subject: Mystery frigate I have a photo of RN frigate F425 taken in Benghazi harbor in 1950 or 1951. Can any one confirm that this is Loch Dunvegan which carried pendant K425 in 1948 with a change in flag superior? Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Burl Burlingame Subject: Re: reviews In the newspaper biz, we differentiate between "reviews" and "critiques." In a movie review, for example, the writer gives you an idea of what you're about to see, an idea of the quality of the product and a clue as to whether you should waste your money on it. A film criticism analyzes what you're seeing, and explains it to you. Usuing this criteria on models, a kit review woul be based on the unbuilt kit as examined in the box, a kit critique would be written after constructing the model. Burl Burlingame -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: Re: Glamorgan's colour scheme In the Falklands, Glamorgan would have had BS381C 632 Dark Admiralty Grey Decks and her superstructure & hull would have been BS381C 676 Light Weatherworks Grey. Humbrol do 632 as their #5 but in gloss. Phoenix Paints (a model railway company) in the U.K.do any BS colour on request but only in a minimum of 125 mls tin. The paints are designed to be airbrushed. Their website is http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/ Michael Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: LHDockyard@aol.com Subject: Re: Flags >> With all of the talk about flags, does anyone know where I can find a contemporary Italian Naval Ensign? This is the one with the coats of arms of the four maritime republics in the center (white) panel as opposed to the national flag which for all practical purposes looks similar to the Mexican and Irish flags. << Loyalhanna Dockyard has the flag you are looking for printed on both sides of a light weight cloth. It is available in 10 sizes from .4" to 6" long. PLease contact us for further information. Don Loyalhanna Dockyard www.loyalhannadockyard.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: ModelFlags@aol.com Subject: Flags >> With all of the talk about flags, does anyone know where I can find a contemporary Italian Naval Ensign? This is the one with the coats of arms of the four maritime republics in the center (white) panel as opposed to the national flag which for all practical purposes looks similar to the Mexican and Irish flags. << This Italian Naval Ensign is just one of the 200 flag designs in 10 different sizes from 10mm (3/8") to 150mm (6") length which can be purchased through our online shop. Just click on "Europe" to view this particular flag. Please contact me offline should you have any questions. Kind Regards Brian ModelFlags.com [An independent authorised distributor of Miniature Cotton Flags, Signal Sets, Self Adhesive Vinyl Flags, Vinyl Lettering and RNLI Bow Emblems manufactured by BECC Model Accessories] http://www.ModelFlags.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume