Subject: SMML VOL 1647 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 01:59:55 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Flags 2: Re: Photo reviews of model kits 3: Re: Union Jack in drydock 4: Re: Union Jack in dry dock 5: Re: Wood Deck Planking 6: Partial review -the end game 7: Pilothouse portholes 8: Re: Akron and Macon 9: Re: Commissioning pennants 10: Re: What is a review 11: DP's Review of ISW's HMS Invincible 12: Akron and Macon Drawings... 13: Re: Dry dock flags and pennants 14: Re: HMS Glomorgan 15: Reviews 16: Zepps and aircraft 17: Akron/Macon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Warship Books announcement 2: Moving Day -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Darren Subject: Re: Flags >> 5. In all navies, ensigns and jacks are only worn by commissioned ships. The jack is only worn when a ship is not under way. Therefore a ship in drydock, if in commission, would wear an ensign (almost certainly at the ensign staff), a jack (which can ONLY be worn at the jackstaff) and fly the commissioning pendant at the main masthead. If paid off, which is most likely if the ship is undergoing major repairs or maintenance, she would wear no colours nor fly a commissioning pendant. << Excellent point. I know that in Canada a ship is usually paid off when undergoing a major refit in a drydock. No flags are worn/flown and the ship is commissioned again when returned to the navy. As for the Commissioning Pennant, it is the same for the UK, US and Canada, ships wear the extremely small pennant at all times. Unfortunately, they aren't always replaced before they are shredded beyond recognition. And due to their small size, it is very hard to see them. I know, I look every time I'm near a ship and have only seen one! Conversly, when a ship is decommissioned, she flies a Decommissioning Pennant and in Canada, in the past at least, the pennant was a meter/yard long for every year of service. The Aircraft Carrier Bonaventure's decom pennant is in the Shearwater museum and it wraps around the inside of the building several times! Darren Scannell BTW, MWL, for a newly minted Captain, I'm surprised that you don't know your flags. But then again, you weren't at sea very long, were you? Maybe they should have an exam before handing out stripes. ; ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Photo reviews of model kits As one who has had many articles and reviews published in print and on line, I can tell anyone from first hand experience that photos are VERY kind to models. By that I mean you can hide virtually any problem or quality depending on the angle and lighting of the photo. This isn't a condemnation or praise of reviewing kits in that fashion. Just a fact. Rusty White #20181 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Union Jack in drydock To Rod Lersch Thanks for finding the photo of the battleship in drydock, and wearing the jack. I guess in this case one can consider a battleship the same way as one would consider a 300 pound gorilla (YOU tell the captain). But did you notice the small vessel tied up to the pier to the right of the picture? Migawd, it sure looks like the topside of a WW 1 Subchaser!!!! Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Union Jack in dry dock To Robert Morris Thanks for the photo reference. I assume the command "Shift colors" refers to relocating the National Ensign from the mast to the smaller flagstaff at the stern, yes? Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Darren Subject: Re: Wood Deck Planking Ok, I'm going to try and explain this technique. Maybe you'll find it helpful. I've seen it used with excellent results on 1/192 scale professional models. First, find thin strips of the wood you want to use, I recommend 1/32" basswood. Sheets if you can't find strips and cut into strips about 1/8" or 1/16" wide. Next get some strips of black construction paper same length and width as the strips. Lay a piece of 5 thou (.005") acetate the size of your deck, or if it's a big deck, in sections about 3 foot long, 4" wide. Then using instant glue and accelerator, glue the strips on edge onto the acetate on a flat surface. Alternate the wood and paper strips until you have about 3" of gluey mess using accelerator for each strip and pressing it close to the previous strip. Something like this, |||||||||||||||| alternating strips ----------- acetate sheet Leave a 1/2" edge of acetate on each side. THEN make a sanding jig. A flat board with two flat metal bars glued on in parallel. The bars will be 1/32" or 1/16" depending on how thick you want the wood. It will be a little more than 4" wide. Say 4.2"? between the bars and about 3.5 feet long It will look something like this, _[ ]______[ ]_ Then place the acetate in the jig, acetate side down, between the bars. Tack with glue if you want to make sure it stays in place. Put on a belt sander or use a large sanding block and sand the wood/paper flat to the height of the bars. You are left with a large planked section that can be stained or painted and glued directly onto the model. (glue the acetate down!) Cut it to fit, use a pencil or thin marker to draw in cross cuts if you desire. Make as many panels as you need for the model. The dimensions given have been found to be best for working with a belt sander and for general handling, but other dimensions can be tried. It is messy, uses a lot of glue, but the results are worth it. Good luck! Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Partial review -the end game In my very first post I wrote that everybody is welcomed to treat information provided any way they wish and from the onboard and offboard responces I am glad to know that those who were prepared to read my posts with an open mind understood what I was trying to say. Opinions of those who kept snapping at the fringes of my argument, or at me personnaly, without touching the heart of the matter do not worry me one little bit. If my posts would cause ISW to correct their model, good. If they don't, than their potential customers will be getting a kit that is partially incorrect. But if those very same customers still do not mind even after being warned, than why should I care???? You pays your money you makes your choices. Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: wmcgraham@netscape.net Subject: Pilothouse portholes I need some help from a ship modeling expert with some scratch building skill. How to create realistic pilothouse portholes on a 1/8 scale model that is being made with basswood, brass and some catalog parts. My efforts on the portholes to date are looking quite crude. In real life these features are quite large (18"-20" dia.) and prominent on the deckhouse. Hatches and watertight doors were easily mail-ordered, but the ports are not. Thanks for your help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: Akron and Macon I used to participate in a number of lists and sites that referred to these plans and where they could be found. I expect that at google on "lighter than air" "airship" and the names Akron and Macon would lead you to a number of these and newer sources. Robert Mosher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Commissioning pennants OK to give you an idea how small a commissioning pennant is - I had the good fortune to be commissioned to do the Sponsor's gift for the USS HAROLD E. HOLT, which was a painting of the ship upon her commissioning. On the painting I glued a real ship's commission pennant to represent the one that was hosted on the HOLT. It even came in the official government issue box - given to me by the ship's C.O. to use. This is one of my first paintings and I had no reference other then an overhead photos so I did the best I could - considering I was a teenager. I will not put you thru going thru my web site to get to the photo - instead I will give you a direct link to the photo - remember the painting is about 30" X 30" - so as you can see it would be hard to spot from any kind of a distance once it is hoisted. However, I do not recall it being 6' more like around 5' but I could be wrong. Here is the link: http://www.navydaze.com/Holt.jpg Cheers, Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SolidStump@aol.com Subject: Re: What is a review >> Sorry D.P., that dog don't hunt!!! As Joel Labow correctly states a review should be a review of the product, not photographs..I have taken publications to task for reviews that I felt were not very objective at times, but they were certainly playing fair, so to speak...I never questioned the QUALITY of their reviews, for example, Steve Wiper and Victor Baca's reviews in Model Ship Journal, the reviews in Plastic Ship Modeler, the reviews on the Steel Navy and SMML websites, etc... These are all very well done reviews and ALL of them have the actual kits in front of them...Yours was NOT a review of the kit...Yours was a review of PHOTOS of the kit and that's how I took it...Let's say that I won't be basing any opinions of the kit on your review of PHOTOS!!! << John, I agree with you. But DP won't quit. His "crusade" has overrun the Steel Navy message board into this list. DP takes up the sword in response to every post against his point of view. While he is undenieably entitled to his opinion, can't we all just ignore him? I am getting tired of having to skip over the space his posts take. I hope he doesn't show up on Modelwarship site next. Simon (the sarcastic) Scheuer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Michael J. D'Silva" Subject: DP's Review of ISW's HMS Invincible As I see it, DP's done no harm. He's simply offered his opinion on photographs of the final production stages of the hull, which, as far as the threads suggest, will not be corrected or modified in any way. I am also a dreadnought fan, and I read DP's findings with interest. I have neither accepted nor rejected them. It is simply what it is -- information. When the ISW Invincible is released, I will compare these finding with other in-the-box or a built-up review, as well as my library of WW1 references. Then I'll decide whether I part with the 'king's ransom' that the kit will cost. It's entirely up to the individual to either accept or reject his findings. There's absolutely no need to exchange salvos if we don't agree. If a manufacturer releases photos of his soon-to-be-released product, it is generally with the purpose to give potential buyers or readers a fair idea of what the final product will look like. It's only obvious that one will start to draw some conclusions from what they see. Minicraft did this with the 'accurized' Titanic kit. Nothing but praise was heaped on them. Photos were released on the Official Titanic Scale Model Web site and yes, at the time, reviews were based on these photos. The kit was still a few months away, but nobody seemed to mind. We were getting what we wanted, a far more accurate Titanic and the photos served to whet our appetites. DP is obviously quite experienced in the subject he is writing about. I know from a trusted source that he is very knowledgeable about the pre-dreadnought and dreadnought era ships, and I don't think it's fair to criticize his findings if one can't disprove them. Michael -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: Akron and Macon Drawings... There are plans for the Akron and Macon sized 18" x 77" for only $14.25 at Windjammer (and I do not even work for them). http://www.windjammer-arts.com/Warship_Catalog/htm/genre_double_size.htm Maybe this could help... God bless IHS, Ralph B -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: CDRSKI@aol.com Subject: Re: Dry dock flags and pennants >> Do you have an opinion about the commissioning pennant being flown at ALL times, as one SMML respondent has said? << Franklin, The story about the Jack while in drydock is not the case. The jack is flown in drydock from the Jack staff unless there is work being done in the area of the Jack Staff that requires it's removal. Such as when the deck is being resurfaced in that area, since colors go at 0800 and sunset a clear path to both the Jack and Flag staff is required. In the case of the flag if the flagstaff has to be removed for work the flag will be flown from the mast as if underway but will still be lowered at sunset. The PUC is the Presidential Unit Commendation, Nuc is the Navy Unit Commendation and the MUC is the Meritorious Unit Commendation. These are awards the ship has earned and are displayed from the gaff. The pennant resembles the ribbon worn by servicemen who served aboard during the time covered by the award. The PUC is Blue on top, Yellow in the center and Red on the bottom. The NUC is Green in the center With stripes on the ends Blue, Yellow Red ( Blue on the outside) The MUC is also Green with a red stripe in the middle, yellow stripe to each side of it then Blue outside of those and Yellow again to the outside of them. The substitute is flown when the C.O. is ashore and Hauled down when aboard. Jim Skowronski ABHC(AW) USN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "M & R Brown" Subject: Re: HMS Glomorgan In 1965 she would have been BS381C 697 Light Admiralty Grey hull & superstructure with BS4800 14C39 green decks. I'm sure in the archives, Chris Rogers has posted a mix for these using Humbrol. The light colour is probably an old fashioned British thing called a wooden deck. BTW Glamorgan was also known as the Glamorous Organ! Michael Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Mike C" Subject: Reviews I don't know about the rest of you, but this argument about "reviews" seems to have degenerated into a contest of semantics. Why don't we go back to the beginning and call the original post an "opinion" and you can make up your minds from there. It all seems so pointless to me anyway. How many of you have read a review that someone else has made (online or in print) and used it as a basis for recommending (or discouraging) its purchase by a friend? Isn't that the same situation (but without the benefit of visual aids)? There are a lot of people who will hear of kit flaws and go ahead and buy a particular kit, myself included, because, "I can fix it!" (The Tamiya 1/350 Fletcher is one case and point.) Many others will buy the same kit and build it straight out of the box because it's the closest they could come to their favorite subject without spending countless hours scratch building. For some people, "Close enough," IS. For me, kit reviews (in-box AND built-up) are like movie reviews. These are often tainted by the biases of the reviewer. In our case, you soon learn the difference between ones objective enough to trust, and those that have been "bought" in exchange for free kits. Often times, it's a case of finding "pro" and "con" reviews and weighing the merits of the opposing arguments, but frequently the photos alone will tell me all I need to know. D.P looked at the photos and brought up questions based on his references. I'll wager that some of those points would have not been considered otherwise. Now it's up to you to look at those same photos and decide whether you agree or not. If you want to continue to discuss the merits of his references or conclusions, fine, but PLEASE stop arguing about what constitutes a "review." Thanks, Mike C Hi Mike, I couldn't have put it better myself mate. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: JohnVCP@aol.com Subject: Zepps and aircraft Being an old LTA type I can say that the need to valve off hydrogen (or helium) when launching an a/c would not be necessary as long as the ship had weigh-on; since there was a lot of aerodynamic lift available and the elevators could trim the ship to maintain altitude. Don't forget they also carried a lot of water ballast that could be dropped. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "John W. Wressell" Subject: Akron/Macon 15 years or so ago I built a model of the Akron. It's about 3 feet long and used the old "stick model" type of construction. Found a small set of plans in "National Geographic". Tried to get a larger set from them but they were not helpful. Covered it with two layers of a heavy rag or silk paper then used silver dope. It has the hanger bay and two of the small fighters suspended beneath her. She's in a glass and mahogany case mounted on the wall. Handsome model if I do say so. John Wressell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Keith Butterley" Subject: Warship Books announcement Hi all, We are now up and running again, not quite to full capacity though. Products from WEM, L'Arsenal and Classic Warships won't be available until June. Keith Butterley http://www.warshipbooks.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Snyder Subject: Moving Day Hi All, It's moving day(s) at White Ensign Models. We'll spend today (Saturday) and Sunday moving WEM from Gardeners Cottage to its new home at South Farm. New address and phone number are below. The new ISDN phone line is supposed to be activated on Monday, so we'll be a bit incommunicado by phone or e-mail until then. Looking forward to continuing to serve the shipmodeling community worldwide. White Ensign Models South Farm Snitton, Ludlow Shropshire, SY8 3EZ United Kingdom Phone: 0870 220 1888 Fax: 0870 220 1786 Best, John Snyder http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume