Subject: SMML VOL 1652 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:00:49 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Flag Trivia 2: Moving Models 3: Re: moving models 4: Re: DKM jacks and ensigns 5: USN Commissioning 6: Moving models 7: Re: Naval Flags 8: 1:600 Kitech Charles De Gaulle 9: What was the colour of cinammon in 1904??? 10: Fine Art Models 11: MV Georgic 12: Moving models 13: US carrier deck tie-down strips 14: Ms 31/5P 15: KGV 1944-45 16: Re: USN WWII. Carrier decks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Flag Trivia I enjoyed all of the talk we have had about flags, jacks and pennants. Soooo would anyone like to guess which signal flag is flown during each of the following: 1. During Flight Ops. 2. Underway Replenishment 3. Man overboard. Guess them all and you win my admiration and respect. If no one gets the answers correct, I will post the answers at a later date - however I have faith in all of you to answer correctly Mike Donegan NAVYDAZE - Naval & Aviation Artist http://www.Navydaze.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Peter Subject: Moving Models There are two basic things that can happen when moving a model: the model can be crushed (think a big heavy box on top of a flimsy box with your model in it) and shifting damage (when your model moves inside of its own box). I'll count damage from vibration as a sort of shifting damage. Ship models can be very hard to move with all those delicate anntennas, rigging and photoetch. My job has had me move every three years for the last 15 years, so here is some of what I have learned and tried: --The best solution is to mount each ship in a real case, wood base, plexiglass cover. The case keeps the ship from banging itself against the inside of the box and the plexiglass cover stops crushing death. Yes cases are expensive but how much did you already spend on the kit, the PE and of course the many hours of your time? Cases keep the model clean as well, so no dust bunnies in the rigging. --I have had some success in gluing the ship to the bottom of a very sturdy box. The box sort of acts like a case cover. This usually means I have had to hack the ship off the cardboard at my destination, which is not good. --If your model does not have lots of delicate parts, you can try and pack it tightly in a box with foam peanuts, then pack that box inside another box, surrounded by foam peanuts. You have to get the peanuts in there tight enough that the model does not move around. You can also try this method after first removing delicate parts of the ship, in hopes of gluing them back on after unpacking. --If you are going by car, you can hand carry models, or put them on the car floor such that they don't move around. This is not practical in all situations. --If you are using professional movers, be sure and learn what their liabilities are when moving your models. Many pro movers accept no liability for boxes you pack yourself, and may have you sign a waiver of their liability for items of excpetional value that break easily. --Pro movers have codes that tell them to place certain boxes on top to help minimize crushing damage. Ask your movers to label your models in their boxes that way. --It is subjective, but in my own experiences moving companies seem to do less damage overall than mailing models in similar packaging. Hope this helps, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Lkjohnson214@aol.com Subject: Re: moving models I used several large beer coolers and tupperware storage cases. I laid down a bed of styrofoam peanuts, put the model in, then filled the container up and secured the cover. My large scale ships came through with NO damage at all. The hard outer shell of the beer coolers really cushioned the model, and if filled up to the brim, the styrofoam peanuts keep everything from shifting about. LJ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Re: DKM jacks and ensigns Hello Doug, In general, the national ensign should be flown from the stern flag staff when in port and from the main mast underway. The national (Nazi) flag was flown as the jack when in port. Although this is the official method, as you have seen in the photos, protocal was not always followed. Sometimes there were reasons such as work being done in the stern area but other times it was the whim or ignorance of the captain or crew. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Joel Labow Subject: USN Commissioning >> Now, the next question is "What constitutes 'commissioning'?"<< In the USN, at any rate, commissioning is a formal ceremony in which the captain and ships company formally and legally take charge of the ship from the builder or shipyard (as previously noted, USN vessels are rarely decommissioned while in shipyard overhaul). The jack and ensign are hoisted, the commissioning pennant is broken at the masthead and all hands march up the brow and assume their watchkeeping stations for the first time, the quartermaster starts his log, etc., etc. The ceremony rather resembles a wedding as the ship and crew unite. Conversely, a decommissioning resembles a funeral. The flags and commissioning pennant are hauled down, the watch is secured and all hands file down the brow for the last time. I was fortunate enough to be invited to the decommissioning of the USGC Roger B. Taney, the last active ship that was present at Pearl Harbor. As you may imagine, there were few dry eyes in the audience! Joel Labow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Kelvin Mok Subject: Moving models >> Has anyone had any experience in moving models from home to another? How did you protect them? It seems the only thing that should touch them is air. I'm open to any successful ideas. << I have never moved models myself but one problem I can anticipate is a means to hold the models securely inside, say in a shoebox or cardboard carton. The solution I would use is, what else, rubber solution. That's the stuff kids use in playschool to stick paper and just about everything else. Its strong enough to hold down your model without adhering so hard that you would damage the paintwork or fittings when it comes to removing the glue. And the glue itself is easy enough to remove without any solvents or need to scrape it off. Just roll it up with your fingers, the thicker the glue the easier it is to roll off. Run a test first in case your paintwork doesn't adhere well to your model as sometimes happens. Another idea is to cut a trough or recess into a slab of styrofoam to nest the hull or display base in and apply the rubber glue generously to hold the hull down. The styrofoam slab should fit snugly into the carton so that the model doesn't get tossed around. Perhaps even glue the styrofoam to the base of the carton. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Naval Flags Franklyn, I want to weigh in along with everybody else here, with a couple of cautions: 1) Everybody who has commented on US Navy customs agrees. And we all are speaking for the time we knew the USN - 1950s, '60s, '70s, etc. None of us claims to know for certain what the customs were in WWI, for the period you are modeling your subchaser. We are just assuming that the rules were the same 85 years ago. (Unless anybody has a 1918 Bluejacket Manual to quote from...?) 2) Now that the discussion of the commission pennant has bubbled to the surface, it is appropriate to point out that many countries other than USA actually routinely decommission a ship during major refits. The Royal Navy even speaks of various "commissions" of a ship for various time periods. The US Navy does not normally decommission ships between deployments. The normal ship is commissioned at the beginning of her career and decommissioned when it is time to go to the mothball fleet twenty to forty years later. Even the three or four year major SLEP overhauls of aircraft carriers don't normally involve decommissioning of the ship. I've heard of some experimental arrangements - some DDGs in the '70s, and I believe repairs from major damage possibly, - Cole, Stark, Samuel B. Roberts? Rick Heinbaugh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Michiel Woort" Subject: 1:600 Kitech Charles De Gaulle Dear Mike, The Charles De Gaulle in 600 is great news, can you give some more information about the company (Trumpeter?). And is the quality the same as the Heller kit. Greetings, Michiel Woort -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: What was the colour of cinammon in 1904??? Looking at the article about "Retvizan" in "Warship" vol.2000/2001, under a photo of "Retvizan" during the repairs of torpedo damage I have noticed a caption pointing out to the overall dark appearance of the ship and speculating that it might have been painted in what I call "McCully's" scheme of cinammon upper works and green olive hull. To my knowledge cinammon is (and was) a reddish-brown in colour so in black and white photo, if such a colour was ever used, it would appear either very similar or even darker than olive green hull. However the only clear photo of one of Port Arthur's ships wearing two tone scheme is that of "Pobieda" and her upper works are distinctly lighter than her hull. If McCully indeed thought they were painted in cinammon colour just what was the colour of cinammon in 1904??? Regards D.P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "denis james" Subject: Fine Art Models Further to Steve Wipers comment whilst I hav'nt seen any in the flesh I turned up their website looking for shots of any warship open bridges (not to many photo's around of these and the models I have are noticably bare) and came across their Bismarck in 1/192 scale. Promptly put my Heller Scheer away and have been building Testors SR 71 eversince.' Fine Art' is a class act. rgds denis james -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Applecroft20@aol.com Subject: MV Georgic Dear Shane, Can you give me any advice where I may be able to purchase a metal scale model of MV Georgic which was trooping during the forties and fifties. Yours sincerely, G. Howarth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Moving models I believe that Mr Butterley has some recent experience of moving models. Perhaps we should hear the story again? ;o) Robert Lockie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: US carrier deck tie-down strips I might be missing something here, but if the pattern is repeated, surely [ ] will look the same as ] [ (i.e. [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]), depending on which segment of the strip is viewed? Wow, how many sentences have the most common character as a bracket? The precise author and issue evades me (not catalogued yet), but there was a piece in Fine Scale Modeler a few years back - might even have been by a SMMLie - about making the strips in 1/72 using plastic strip. In case you think the modeller was insane, he only did a small section of deck, I think for a carrier aircraft base. Robert Lockie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Ms 31/5P Hi According to Lambert and Ross's Allied Coastal Forces of WW2 Vol. II (p173), 31/5P consisted of bands of dark green sprayed over medium green, so the base colour would have been the latter. However, the actual colours used are uncertain, as the greens were being changed at the time the design was being used. The BuShips drawing shows Navy Green 5-NG over Ocean Green 5-OG, although Outside Green 1, 2 and 3 were being introduced at the same time, so the later boats may have been Outside Green 3 over Outside Green 2. The patterned scheme was to be applied to all vertical surfaces, with all horizontal surfaces in Deck Green 20-G. Some boats did carry the pattern onto the decks, notably the Higgins boats. Unfortunately the book does not include drawings of the plan of port sides, so maybe there was insufficient space to do so - hopefully Al or one of the camouflage experts has them somewhere and can enlighten us. Robert Lockie Swindon UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: KGV 1944-45 I knew I should have posted this to the list instead of sending it direct a couple of weeks ago&. First off, bearing in mind the barrages which tend to arrive in relation to what may or may not be reviews, I wish to state that I do not own the Tamiya 1/350 kit and therefore all the words below are taken from an article written by Mike Gould (who has built one) in Scale Models September 1986. So please don't shoot the messenger if you disagree with any of it. I do not have the WEM or GMM p/e for it (even though I don't have the kit, for once I didn't get the accessories first) so cannot comment on that question. Gould's comments Join lines across deck are the usual problem to remove. Cranes etc. benefit from p/e/ replacements and railings are worth adding. A number of portholes need to be filled [the Warship articles indicate which ones - let me know if you want a detailed description], although the lower row seems to have been plated over. Rectangular scuttles need adding to the stern. Add three gash chutes to hull sides. Second rearmost starboard anchor had been landed by this time, so fill locating hole and remove related anchor chain detail from foredeck. Colours The kit is configured in the British Pacific Fleet fit of 1945, with the boat deck replacing the original aircraft launching catapult. The correct camouflage pattern is therefore the Admiralty Standard Type B scheme. According to Robert Dumas's article in Warship 11, the scheme was carried from July 1944 to the end of 1945 and was overall G45 (light grey) with a panel of B20 (a blue-grey, not grey as Tamiya suggests) on the hull side. The panel stretched from just in front of the foremost point of the breakwater to just aft of the thicker section of the barrels of the aft 15" turret (i.e. beyond the armoured belt). The top is level with the top of the armoured belt. Deck colour is not given but I believe that the wood was unpainted and horizontal metal surfaces (according to Alan Raven's article in PSM 1997/1, p24) were B15 (dark blue). Snyder and Short's set No.2 of RN paint chips almost certainly has the colours (I have both sets but can only find No.1, which has the early colours, so it must be No.2 that you need for late war). Hopefully WEM will do them before long. Without them, you are in the territory of mixing. The scheme looks a bit tatty in photographs. Robert Lockie Swindon UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Topy Yester" Subject: Re: USN WWII. Carrier decks Dear Mr. Schade and Steve, Thank you very much for the interesting info. Does it mean, that the carrier decks were stained "USN deck blue" colour (as ship decks according to e.g. MS 21.)? Could you please help me, what Model Master paint matches or is near to this colour. Thank you very much Zsolt from Hungary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume