Subject: SMML VOL 1719 Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 02:12:10 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Relics 2: Re: ship relics 3: Re: NZ Navy posters 4: Re: 1/350 enterprise 5: U869 6: Re: Relics 7: Re: ship relics 8: Re: bombs found 9: U-869 10: Bomb locations 11: Re: Internet warning! 12: Re: Bombs found 13: Old munitions 14: Soviet Foxtrot class submarine 15: Re: Bombs found 16: Crew of damaged submarine safe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation 1: SMML site update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: cfrieden@calpoly.edu Subject: Relics >> There used to be a sunken WW Two cargo ship in the Thames estuary loaded with bombs. It was there up to around 1980 complete with the full cargo. Is it still there? << The ship is the Liberty ship Richard Montgomery, and she is still there. She ran aground in August of 1944 and soon began to break up. About half of her cargo of bombs was removed; the rest is still down there. Her masts and cargo booms are still visible above the water- there is a great photo of the Jeremiah O’Brien steaming towards Chatham during her 1994 voyage with the remains of the Montgomery poking out of the water in the foreground. There is a large sign attached to one of her masts warning boaters away from the wreck. I don’t know of any firm plans to deal with the wreck. The block from the Montgomery’s jumbo boom was recently removed to prevent it from dropping and possibly detonating her cargo. Regards, Chris Friedenbach Volunteer Crewmember, SS Jeremiah O’Brien -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: ship relics Ok so now I have gone from "shell envy" to "telescope envy", Steve that is one heck of a piece of history you have. Well, moving along with this thread on bombs found, I remember also somewhere in the San Diego area - probably Near Camp Edwards I think, they built a housing tract and people started digging up unexploded munitions in their yards. Was a former training area during W.W.II. Cases like that are very rare here in the states but I can only imagine what it is like in Europe with two World Wars and of course Britain with the Blitz. I think I would be two tempted to go looking for war booty. There is one web site I found that show all the digs for old war stuff in Europe and the Pacific Islands - give me a couple of weeks and I am sure I would blow myself up. Mike NAVYDAZE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Re: NZ Navy posters Contrary to Dave's comment that the stock is exhausted they are standard Navy promo material and are available through the enquiries section www.defence.govt.nz They are, however, updated periodically to reflect the current fleet, so may differ from that on issue a few years ago. Also do a nice range of individual ships on postcard. Remember to include your snail mail address. John Sutherland Wellington New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Jansen, Matthijs" Subject: Re: 1/350 enterprise In the last SMML somebody told me that my estimated beam for Big E was way too small. He was right, I missed a number while typing my message. Very confusing. Matthijs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Baumbach, Werner" Subject: U869 Referring to: >> A while back I saw a documentary on a U-Boat that was found off New Jersey. They had a hard time determining its' identity because no boats were reported lost in that general location. After some extensive forensic work, they finally discovered the identity of this mystery sub. As it turned out, it was a U-Boat reported lost in the Mediterranean, or somewhere in that part of the world. I don't recall how they explained the confusion of thinking the sub was in the Med instead of New Jersey. But experts speculate the sub fired a malfunctioning torpedo which made a big circle, and came back to destroy them. << I saw that on TV as well. It took them quite a while to identify the boat as there supposedly was non lost in that area and they could at first not find any identifying signs. In addition, U869 was confirmed to be sunk off the coast of Marocco. The diving team was in Germany (Hamburg?, not quite sure where the archive is) and went through tons of logs and files several times without any success (that hunt included also some false clues). Then in the end they found the tag for a machine, I think which then made the positive ID possible. That then brought this big surprise. As for what it was doing there (I guess other than trying to sink Allied ships) there was no clear answer and also for the sinking, one of the theories was indeed an own torpedo, but I have not heard, whether that has been confirmed. Cheers Werner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Art" Subject: Re: Relics >> There used to be a sunken WW Two cargo ship in the Thames estuary loaded with bombs. It was there up to around 1980 complete with the full cargo. Is it still there? << AFAIK it is. US Ammunition ship bombed whilst at anchor, can't remember the name. Used to pass within 50' of it on the starboard beam when entering the Medway. Still loaded, occasionally dived on, to be left until it rots as it is considered too dangerous to remove. Right across the channel from the old Sheernes Barracks and at the southern tip of the Isle of Grain. Art -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Art" Subject: Re: ship relics >> Well, I guess it is my turn to speak up about Naval Relics. << Well I am not from Texas, but how big and how many do you want? US or Jap? Art Ilu Farm Red Beach Guadalcanal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: tangui De Saint Hilaire Subject: Re: bombs found I do not know about the Thames river, but is it surprising to find old WW2 bombs in an area which endured the Blitz? Wartime night bombing is yet still hazardous (look at Bagdad and Kabul now!) and German bombers may have missed the ground, the ship they were aiming at, and bombs may just not work. Or maybe, is there any building or storage plant along the river from where bombs could have dropped off and taken a little swim? This sounds uncommon, but uncommon things sometimes happen. Anyway, old bombs from any world war are being dug out quite all around Europa at a fairly steady rate, sometimes even chemical bombs from WW1. The other thong is that after a war or a simple change of materials, the old things have to be dumbed somwhere; for instance, I know about an area in the Ireland sea where tons of old bombs, mines and such stuff are just rusting away and getting catched in fishers' nets. With regards, Tangui de Saint Hilaire -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: U-869 The U-boat that was sunk off New Jersey was reported lost in the eastern Atlantic (off Casablanca as I recall) in February 1945 purely because that was the last reported location based on the British radio intercepts and Enigma decrypts. We simply didn't know that the boat had sailed to the other side of the pond and the German records were similarly uninformed, being based on the last radio message received. They had therefore assumed that it had not been able to follow its orders to sail to the US coast. In the end they identified it by the presence of a knife with the name of one of the crew engraved upon it and the equipment boxes recovered from the aft section, which had the boat number engraved on a data plate. Such things are evidently common in the submarine world, with most losses being registered only when they failed to return from a patrol. I recall a series in Warship a few years back which analysed US losses in the Pacific and many were classified as "believed lost due to &..". Circular running torpedoes also seems to have been not uncommon - I seem to remember that Dick O'Kane's boat (USS Tang?) was sunk by one in the Pacific. Robert Lockie Swindon UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Bomb locations When I was a student, my department used to house the Bomber Command post-strike reconnaissance photographs, and used to get regular requests from Germany for copies of those where major building works were planned. As I understand it, they used to study the crater patterns to determine if there were likely to be any UXBs which had not been previously detected and removed so that nobody had a nasty surprise when pile driving or digging. To my shame, I never tried to blag my way in for a look at them, even though I was there for three years. Robert Lockie Swindon UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: raisingirl@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Internet warning! hello all.... >> I have been receiving e-mail's with an attachment on it from addresses that are familiar to me. The one thing that tipped me off as to their being a "Virus", was the subject area was weird. I think these are worms that are going out thru our own e-mail address books. << The thing is, some of these virus e-mails are *not* always originating from the addresses they purport to be from. Apparently there is a strain that not only sends infected e-mails out from the victim's computer, but also plugs e-mail addresses from the address book into the "from" line to make it appear that other people are sending out infected e-mails too. I know this because I have a yahoo.com back-up address that I almost never use, that's less than a month old and that I do all my writing from on the web-based application (i.e. none of the yahoo.com stuff resides on my computer), and yet I've had at least one warning that a virus has been sent out from it. I make it a matter of practice to never run attachments from e-mail, and my ancient browser/mail program has a setting that lets me truncate file attachments unless I want all of it. Very seldom, if ever, do I complete such a download, even if it's from someone I know. A lot of these files are heartaches waiting to happen. Oh, what I wouldn't give for five minutes in a locked room with a length of lead pipe and the little [favored politically incorrect verb/noun] who wrote this virus.... jodie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Lou Meszaros Subject: Re: Bombs found Here's the link to the lost sub: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostsub/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: MrkLeonard@aol.com Subject: Old munitions When I was stationed in Okinawa in the 70's, EVERYBODY had to sit through a mandatory lecture on identifying old munitions from WWII and how to handle them (which was basically leave them alone and call the authorities). I specifically recall reading about how they found a 1000 lb bomb when they tore down the old police station in Ishikawa. As far as dumping munitions from ships, I never did that. I DO remember deep-sixing a nonfunctional sick bay ice maker from the fantail from the Coral Sea as we were heading into Pearl one day. Regards, Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Soviet Foxtrot class submarine Aside from the new Soviet Foxtrot class submarine just docked in Seattle, you all are probably aware of the one moored next to the QUEEN MARY in Long Beach, California. You can also take a tour of this one for $10.00. If you have the interest, you can explore this at: http://www.queenmary.com The gift shop sells a very nice color booklet for $10.00 which is a nice monograph on this particular sub, and includes many color photos and a two-page interior drawing with a key to equipment. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Nautical Research Guild http://www.naut-res-guild.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: RDChesneau@aol.com Subject: Re: Bombs found For: Rod Dauteuil Oh yes, real bombs sometimes do turn up in the Thames Estuary, and in people's back gardens too. And the odd mine rolls up on the beach now and then. Nowadays they make headline news, but 20-30 years ago they were more or less commonplace and editors relegated such news to the bottom of column 5 on page 17. Roger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Crew of damaged submarine safe http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020523-98877488.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Infomation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mistress Lorna Subject: SMML site update People have been busy taking photos of ships while Kevin Wenker, Chris Drage, Chris Rogers and Jim Bauman have been making models and taking photos of them. They've been added to the site along with the archives (1655-1719) and a build article of the Tamiya O Class as well as a review of the rarely seen Empress of Australia kit. Enjoy! Lorna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume