Subject: SMML VOL 1720 Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:36:10 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Now docking, a genuine Cold War Soviet submarine 2: Empress OF Australia 3: Re: Bombs found 4: U-869 5: Re: Spent torpedoes 6: Re: NZ Navy posters 7: Re: Missing telescope 8: Re: Old munitions 9: Re: 'Ship Shells' 10: Relics 11: Re: old ordnance 12: A challenging question on colors and camouflage 13: Re: Queen Mary 14: Re: UXO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: Now docking, a genuine Cold War Soviet submarine JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina)wrote: >> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/71440_sub22.shtml << For those of us on the east coast, check out this sub: http://www.saratogamuseum.org/pressreleases/032102pr.html They are hoping to open sometime in July, after the movie K-19: The Widow Maker premires. Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ p.s. We have around 50 cruisers coming to the USS Salem on May 26th ... PT Cruisers that is! Check out the web site for details. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "william k code" Subject: Empress OF Australia Ah, you guys really tweaked my curiosity when you mentioned the Empress of Australia...Sadly she isn't the Empress I was looking for..Sigh.. Back in the late 1890s P&O lines had a trio of wonderful looking liners plying the pacific. Empress of India, Empress of Japan, Empress of Australia.. I think at least one was use as an Aux Cruiser during WW1. I saw a picture taken from one of the Empress of the wreck of SMS Emden. What wonderful looking ships they were.. You could see the direct descendents from the sailing packets before them and the giants yet to come in the years ahead. Anyone know where I could find a set of plans for these beauties.. regards BC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Les Pickstock Subject: Re: Bombs found UXBs do frequently turn up here, only last week one the main railway lines was closed while they dealt with a bomb found on a building site. If memory serves there is the wreck of a munitions ship in the the Thames estuary that is so full of "dodgy" ammo that it can't be removed, the name of it escapes me for the moment but it was estimated the blast radius would be about a mile and its only several hundred yards off shore. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: U-869 The story of U-869 is actually quite fascinating. This U-boat original destination East Coast of the USA (New Jersey specifically) at some point during her voyage U-boat Command in Germany for some unknown reason become convinced that U-869 was short of fuel and ordered her to proceed to Mediterranean Sea. Probably due to the damaged radio equipmant U-869 had not received this message and neither was she abble to contact U-boat Command again. Without any orders to the contrary U-869 proceeded to her original destination off New Jersey but despite the lack of reply the U-boat Command assumed that U-boat not only received her change of orders but also carried them out. Since there was no further communication from U-869 after a proscribed period U-boat command assumed that she was sunk somewhere in the Mediterranean. Ironically signals from both U-869 and from U-boat Command were intercepted and decoded by the British who on this (as on few other) occasion were more aware about the boat's location that the Germans were!!! Regrads D.Przezdziecki -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Spent torpedoes I have a recollection that during WW 2, spent German torpedoes (ones that missed the target) would surface and simply float in the shipping lanes in the hope that a ship from the next convoy might strike it and cause it to detonate. Allied Naval Intelligence probably knew almost everything they needed to know about them anyway, and it was dangerous to stop and try to retrieve one if it had been spotted, either to neutralize it or to dissect it. A choice of expediency, whose parameters are different in wartime than in peace. Allied spent torpedoes, on the other hand, were supposed to sink when they failed to detonate or ran out of fuel. There were many more Allied than Japanese convoys in the Pacific (the major U.S. Naval theater of submarine operations), therefore our spent torpedoes could have constituted a possible threat to our own ships. It was doubtful if Japanese Naval Intelligence had an abundance of information on our torpedoes, other than the somewhat well known fact that they were (early in the war) notoriously unreliable, The U.S. Navy preferred to deny the Japanese access to even that flawed technology by means of a recovered torpedo. I don't remember any public comments on Japanese spent torpedoes. Did they automatically sink or float? Can any SMML subscriber enlighten us? Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Baumbach, Werner" Subject: Re: NZ Navy posters Now, before I find out what my chances are to have a poster of the NZ navy sent to Germany, is there any chance to scan the pictures and put them either on a web site, or have a distribution list and send them. Taking that one step further, if there would be interested, I'd be willing to scan the Bundesmarine stuff (Germany) and offer that. Would be interesting for other navies as well. What do you think? If there is interest, we can either discuss it here or contact me offline and we'll see what can be done. Happy modelling Werner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Missing telescope To Steve Aha !!!! Now we know what happened to that telescope that you mentioned. Although it was "issued" to an officer, it was really loaned to him, it remained, and still is, U.S.Government Property. This may be the reason the Navy may, sometimes, appear to be just a little off balance. It is caused by the inability to account for this telescope all these years. The books don't balance. Now I know you are a good citizen, well endowed with a fine sense of civic responsibility, and are eager to rectify this situation by returning the instrument to the U.S. Navy, but prefer to not reveal yourself, for obvious reasons. However, I am willing to broker the deal for you. Therefore, if you will send the telescope and case to me, I will see what I can do to put things right. Contact me off-line for the shipping address. If you do so voluntarily, I will waive all fees and costs, and refund the shipping and crating charges. After you have shipped it, burn all papers and purge all files related to this matter. Now THERE'S an offer you can't refuse !!!!!!! Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Jeremiah O. Coughlin" Subject: Re: Old munitions >> As far as dumping munitions from ships, I never did that. I DO remember deep-sixing a nonfunctional sick bay ice maker from the fantail from the Coral Sea as we were heading into Pearl one day. << Dear Smmlies, On the ships I served we never dumped live ammunition. We would fire off everything but small arms, and common shells, then replace the gun barrels or liners, take on fresh ammo when we got to port. Food stores and old spare parts got "surveyed" also. There were a few crewmen we could have done without too, but usually came back with the full crew.Long ago and far away. Semper, jeremiah... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SSNBuff@aol.com Subject: Re: 'Ship Shells' >> Hi to Dean Markley (Vol 1712). I have other naval related stuff such as a round for the US 1 Pounder Hotchkiss revolving cannon, US 3 and 6 Pounder Hotchkiss rounds complete, a 4.7" British shell casing for the Scott carriage Naval Brigade guns used in the siege of Ladysmith, an 8 Inch HE projectile for the heavy cruiser HMAS Australia of WWII, and a brass casing for a 6 Inch Q.F. gun 1902 converted in the 1930's for the cordite charge for aircraft catapult launching such as the Sydney type light cruisers, + ..... If I have an opportunity to find a digitally camera minded person (Shane ;-) ??) I can post a photo. The 12 Inch I want to put in a display of it, the 8 Inch, and a coast defence 9.2 Inch. It would take a lot of inducement to part with it at present (a sign of getting older, hmmm) << Peter: are you doing this to deliberately make me jealous? I'm not the only one, I am sure! Shane, I sure hope you can post these photos! Is it possible to get plans to make a 1:1 scale 12 inch shell? Dean Hi Dean, Once Peter and I can arrange a time, Lorna & I will take the photos and post them. Shane - about to leave for the chilly climes of the nation's capital for a two day model show -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Norman Samish" Subject: Relics When I was scuba diving at Truk a few years ago, we dove on a sunken Japanese freighter that had a big hole in its side. We could see a lot of what looked like battleship shells piled up in the hold - I don't know the size but they were big. I wonder if they were 18-inchers? They're still there, I'm sure, but can't be removed because the area is protected from scavenging. Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: O'Connor Subject: Re: old ordnance Before his retirement from the USN, my dad was stationed at NAF Sigonella, Sicily in the early 70's. It had been a German weapons and storage depot during WWll and numerous items had been dumped. We often found 40 mm tracer rounds and handled them til we realized they were unstable (according to my dad, a weps officer and in charge of the NATO ordnance depot there and at Augusta Bay and Siracuse). Some interesting stuff turned up, particularly after the rare heavy rainfall uncovered it-belt buckles, spent and unspent ammo, ammo cans and other containers. Seems they also buried a lot, as whenever there was construction on base, everyone went around with a set of earplugs, in anticipation of the big "boom". Lots of metal detectors and ground sensing gear there for that reason, at least back then. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: A challenging question on colors and camouflage OK, I've got a real tough one for you all. I'm going to be building two PT Dockyard French chausseurs as the Free French chausseur No. 10, Bayonne, as she appeared in 1941 and 1945. I have the details of her armament and appearance. What I don't have are her colors. I need to know what scheme or schema the chausseurs would have carried. She performed patrols and convoy escort in the English Channel for most of her career. Her biggest moment was being part of the Dieppe raid, being honored by de Gaulle. Yes, I've already asked the illustrious John Snyder. I haven't heard back from him, but since he and his blushing bride just moved into a new home I'm not surprised, and I hope they're enjoying themselves. Thank you all, Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Michael London" Subject: Re: Queen Mary The item about QM at Long Beach reminds of the story as to how she got her name. It may be apocryphal but the story goes that Cunard planned to call the ship Queen Victoria. It was thought expedient to clear this with the reigning monarch King George V and Cunard's chairman took the opportunity during a golf game with His Majesty. "Your Majesty we would like to call the new ship after the greatest queen that Britain ever had and would like your permission". The king replied "That's very good of you I am sure my wife (Queen Mary) will be delighted". What could Cunard do? Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: UXO During the years I lived in Moscow, I kept an eye out on the Russian press for these kinds of stores, and of course Russia (like Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States) has a major problem with unexploded ordnance, abandoned ammo dumps, forgotten minefields, etc. I remember at least one report of an 85mm AA shell found in a construction site next to where we lived and other reports from other areas of the city closer to the actual German ground attacks. I also posted here once before about the continuing efforts today to sweep the Baltic of unexploded ordnance and sea mines. And the Washington DC area is still checked frequently in recent years for abandoned World War I chemical rounds and other ordnance buried at what were then rural areas and now are subdivisions. Robert Mosher www.combatic.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume