Subject: SMML VOL 1745 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 03:27:40 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: 1/35 scale LCVP 2: Ruse de guerre, 8th June, 1944 3: Re: Kursk 4: KM torpedo nets 5: Re: Ruse de guerre, 8th June, 1944 6: Re: Konig model 7: Mass and Maine 8: Vacuum former 9: lead 10: HMS JUPITER 11: Re: Converting from 1:700 to 1:600 scale 12: The U.S.N. in WW 1 13: Re: Ruse de guerre, 8th June, 1944 14: John Wanamaker resturant -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WTB: CW 1/350 USS Alaska -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Bill & Kaja Michaels" Subject: 1/35 scale LCVP I noticed that in this month's Squadron sales flyer, the Fonderie Miniature LCVP 1/35 scale kit is listed for sale at $47 (US). Has anyone seen this kit? Is it worth $47? I like Landing craft, but I'm a little hesitant to spend $50 on a kit, when I've got a couple of $13 Lindberg LCVPs already. Bill Check out my US Coast Guard subjects model list at: http://www.tiac.net/users/billkaja/kitlist.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Norman Samish" Subject: Ruse de guerre, 8th June, 1944 Tony Ireland's naval war stories are fascinating. Thanks, Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: NAVYDAZE@aol.com Subject: Re: Kursk There is an update on their web site as to the theory now of what happened to the men trapped in the 9th compartment. Very sad in reading you realize that they may have had a chance until something went wrong. Good, informative reading. The link is at: http://kursk.strana.ru/english/dossier/999494361.html Mike NAVYDAZE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: KM torpedo nets >> also need a few thoughts on something... was watching "above us waves" about the attack on the Tirpitz by the mini subs.. was thinking of maybe doing a 1/72 sub think I saw them on the japan hooby web site... now question is the anti torpedo nets, if I remember correctly they had 2 styles in the film, one circular & I think the other was like a diamond pattern.. anyone know the exact pattern of the anti-torpedo nets or german styles.. I may not contine with it as im toying with about a dozen different ideas for end of year << Andrew I am no expert on torpedo nets but I was watching a Channel 5 documentary on the RN in WW2 today (actually it was on a few days ago but I taped it) and there was some footage, during the part about the X-craft attack on Tirpitz, of what appeared to be a net which had been brought ashore. It resembled a massive piece of chain mail, composed of interlocking rings of twisted steel wire rope. The film was taken at fairly close range but I imagine that the diameter would be something less than 18" in order to be effective (given that this was the smallest diameter allied torpedo as far as I am aware). Robert Lockie Swindon UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Ruse de guerre, 8th June, 1944 An absolutely fascinating story, Tony. I will gladly read any "I Was There" story that you post. Mike Settle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Konig model Apparently the ICM Konig has been discontinued. When we placed our most recent order with Hannants, only the ICM Grosser Kurfurst was listed in the trade catalogue. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Ricjus001@aol.com Subject: Mass and Maine Phil Stewart wrote: >> Bath Iron Works in Portland Harbor (Commercial Street, Portland, roughly at the end of Franklin Street) services destroyers and cruisers, making use of a floating drydock. This installation is being scaled back or closed soon, as I understand it. Great views of Aegis destroyers, etc. can be had here, from a distance. BIW builds ships at another installation in Bath, Maine. << Sorry to say, not the case, BIW closed down the site about 1 yr ago, and turned it back ober to the City of Portland, ME. The drydock was sold soon after and sold to a company in Croatia, it was carried off by the Black Marlin(2 sections, 2 trips), sister ship to the one that brought the Cole(DDG-67) home. The facilty was origianlly intended to be a repair shop for Navy ships back in the early 1980s, but very soon after completion, Congress passed a law that rtequired ships to be repaired no more than 70 miles from homeports. The drydock itself, I seem to remember, actually dates back to World War Two and was over 800' long. >> Long Island (Portland Harbor's) has some remnants of naval activity, but none on public land that I can think of and most of it is refueling-oriented infrastructure that is either eerie or boring, depending on your point of view. Island makes a nice bucolic place to stroll and see the ocean, though. << I have an uncle with a camp there. The instillations u mention are indeed on private land and I dont think one can visit them, they are in bad shape anyway >> Cushing's Island is another private island, and has several interesting WWII-era observation towers that may still be structurally sound, and dug-in fortifications and tunnels reminiscent of the Maginot Line in France, requiring caution to explore so one doesn't end up with a broken leg in the bottom of a big gun's magazine or something. I don't know if tours are available. << Havent heard if tours are available, very very doubtful of that. U can still see a couple of the towers from the seaward side of Lond Island, a mile or two off. Peaks Island would be the one to go for the best remnants on the islands, I can remember walking around the empacements a few years back, erie nowadays. The guns were actually 16" guns, I think the same as a battleships, and they were 1 of only 2(I believe 2) 16" costal gun emplacements. Battery Steele was the name, I think. Justin D. Richard Portland Maine born, Windham Maine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: JRKutina@webtv.net (John Kutina) Subject: Vacuum former Re recent SMML interest in vacuum forming: In the July,2002 issue of "Fine Scale Modeler" on page 81 there is an ad for "COPY MASTER a "3.5 x3.5" vacuum former that uses your oven, your vacuum cleaner comes with plastic." Price $84. + S&H www.warmplastic.com 877 - 560 - 6398 Good luck, John - Seattle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Clem Jensen" Subject: lead Vulcan Lead in Milwaukee sells lead from .001 to .875 in widths from 10 inches to 4 feet. Their phone is 1 800 932 LEAD Clem -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Snyder Subject: HMS JUPITER Given the HMS FROBISHER recollection in today's SMML, I thought I'd pass this bit along, found in the WEM archives: The Sinking of a Japanese U-Boat by HMS Jupiter in the South-Western Approach to Sunda Strait (Monthly Anti-Submarine Reports May 1942 Narrative Section PRO ADM 199/2059) "On the morning of 17th January 1942 HMS Jupiter was escorting the United States armed merchant cruiser Mount Vernon clear of Sunda Strait. When the ships were about 40 miles to the south-westward of "Flat Cape", Mount Vernon passed the information that a Greek steamer had been reported torpedoed at 1110 in a position 65 miles to the eastward. Jupiter requested permission to proceed to hunt and was released. "It was considered that the U-Boat having thus made her presence known, would proceed to seaward, making for the small 100 fathom patch some 20 miles to the south-eastward of Cape Rada in order to fix her position by sounding; it also seemed possible that she would remain there. Jupiter accordingly set a course of 077 so as to pass through this area. "At 1400 when about 30 miles from the position in which the merchantman had been torpedoed, she began an asdic sweep and after an hour and a quarter made contact, in good asdic conditions at a range of 1,800 yards. She was then close to the southward of the 100 fathom patch. "The target appeared to be moving very slowly right with "slightly low" doppler, and being classified as "submarine" was, without delay, attacked with 5 depth-charges (No. 3 settings). Having completed the attack, the ship opened the range and began an asdic sweep on either side of the pattern. Picking up a contact just clear of it and on the expected side, which was at first believed to be part of it, she reduced speed to 8 knots in order to investigate it thoroughly and to make certain that any possible hydrophone effect was not missed. Hopes were somewhat damped as a school of black fish had been sighted one or two miles away but, as the range closed, the echo became really sharp, with no doppler. "At 500 yards a distinct hydrophone effect was heard, giving the impression that the U-Boat was starting to work her motors. Jupiter opened the range to 1,500 yards, maintaining contact, and prepared for a second attack. Slightly low doppler with the target moving right, was heard. When the range was about 400 yards hydrophone effect was heard again, the echo becoming "feathery" and it was thought that the U-Boat had gone astern on one motor, possibly the starboard. There was an impression, however, that she was making violent use of both her motors. "At 1535 the second attack was delivered and six depth-charges seat [sic] as in the first were dropped. The range was opened to 1,000 yards only in case the U-Boat might try to escape at full speed. The ship turned 180š to starboard before reducing to 12 knots and on the turn a black shape was reported close to the depth-charge pattern but proved to [be] only the black fish brigade who were now quitting the area at high speed.ı Two echoes were then obtained, once close to the port side of the pattern and the other clear to port. This latter contact was being investigated, when loud hydrophonic effect was heard in the position of the first echo and almost at once a Japanese U-Boat appeared 5 cables on the starboard bow. Down by the stern and having no way on she was blowing tanks profuselyı. This was five minutes after the second attack. "Jupiter altered course to close and bring the short range weapons to bear from the port side. The starboard Oerlikon managed, during the short time it was bearing, to get off a short burst which appeared to hit the conning-tower as the first Japanese came out to man their gun. Speed was increased to 18 knots and the port 0.5 in., pom-pom and Oerlikons opened fire, causing several casualties. The first salvo of the main armament was, however, overı. "Despite the heavy fire, the enemy replaced his casualties and it became evident that he was unable to dive and intended to fight a gun action. Jupiter decided to take advantage of her superior gun power and to open the range to about 6,000 yards on the enemyıs quarter. There remained three hours of daylight in which to destroy the enemy. "As the ship passed within 500 yards of the enemy, the after strip Lewis bun picked off two or three more of the Japanese gun's crew. They replied and with their second shot hit A mounting. Three of the gun's crew were killed and nine were wounded. Jupiterıs main armament secured one hit aft before she had to put the U-Boat astern but it is doubtful whether the shot penetrated the pressure hull. By this time the Japanese had started their engines and had begun to turn slowly through north to starboard. Jupiter continued to open the range, snaking under wheel with the enemy astern and firing seven or eight rounds a minute at her; in order to keep on her quarter and open arcs, she came round to starboard. This zig-zag course, combined with the smallness of the target made conditions very difficult for the destroyer's main armament but nevertheless one hit was observed forward. "The U-Boat indulged in some short bursts of speed up to 12 knots but continued to turn to starboard down by the stern until the ships had made a ring of rosesı for about twenty minute [sic]; she eventually settled down on a mean course of 250. "Jupiter then fired five torpedoes from a range of about 3,500 yards without result and while she was approaching before the turn away the enemy effected his best gunnery, the nearest shot being about 20 yards on the beam when at fine inclination. By now, however, the U-Boatıs trim to starboard had become more pronounced. She had a considerable list to port and thick browny-yellow smoke was seen to be coming from her stern. Her gun arc was closed. Jupiter reduced speed to 15 knots and began a slow zig-zag keeping A arcs open on the bow. A keen look-out was kept for torpedoes. Her main armament crossed and straddled the target many times but, with the U-Boat snaking slowly behind her smoke and with no wind, it was not possible to get a weather gauge. After five minutes the hydrophone effect of a torpedo was heard and avoiding action successfully taken. Jupiter then manoeuvered so as to overhaul the U-Boat on her starboard beam and, while she was doing so, another torpedo missed well astern. "It was the last effort of the enemy. Jupiter obtained two and possibly three hits on the stern of the U-Boat, which was seen to be turning slowly to starboard, losing way and rising by the bow. Her gun was no longer manned. "Jupiter observing this, at once altered course towards the U-Boat and approached at full speed, snaking as she went. While turning in, she obtained another hit midway between the U-Boatıs stem and conning-tower and saw the smoke of an internal explosion. The inside of the conning-tower seemed to be on fire but the Japanese continued to use their machine gun until it was eventually silenced by the Jupiterıs close range armament which sprayed the conning-tower and deck as she ran in. Passing close astern of the now stationary U-Boat, Jupiter fired her starboard thrower. The charge, set at 50 ft., fell five yards abeam of the conning tower. Its explosion blew a man out of the conning tower and caused a sheet of flame to leap up fifteen or twenty feet from it; the U-Boatıs bows slowly lifted and she sank by the stern in 500 fathoms of water in position 06š19'30"S, 104š49'20"E. "Three of [sic] four men had been seen to jump overboard and three survivors, all wearing only jock straps were picked up. "Little intelligence could be obtained from them. The U-Boat was apparently the I.60 was painted black and had no markings. The one uninjured survivor traced a route on a large scale map according to which the U-Boat had sailed from Kobe to the Molucca Sea keeping to the eastward of the Philippines and thence through the Banda and Timor Seas to Sunda Strait. "Jupiter fearing there might be more than one U-Boat in the neighbourhood, did not stay longer than was necessary to pick up survivors, but proceeded with all despatch to Tanjong Priok, which she reached at 1930." NOTES 1. Jupiter did not ram because of instructions issued by Admiral Cunningham that destroyers in the Mediterranean command were not to attempt this as they could not be spared for repairs. This decision was fully endorsed by the C in C Eastern Fleet. 2. The submarine lost was I.60, a KD3B type launched on 24.4.29. Displacement 1,635 tons (1,800/2,300 normal); Dimensions 308-1/2 (pp), 331-1/2 (oa) x 26 x 16ft.. Machinery 2 shaft diesel/electric motors, HP 6,800/1,800 = 20/8 knots. Armament 1 x 4.7 in. gun; 8 x 21 in. (bow) T.T. and 16 torpedoes. Complement 60. 3. One of Jupiterıs officers summarized the sinking by saying, "one can say in retrospect about the action that the [Japanese] submarine commander was inexperienced, as we should not have brought him to the surface so easily, when he had plenty of depth and sea room." Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Michael London" Subject: Re: Converting from 1:700 to 1:600 scale >> Many thanks to Michael London for the conversion. Michael can you tell me the conversion for 1:400 plans down to 1:600. << You're welcome. For the above multiply by 0.67. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: The U.S.N. in WW 1 I recall reading somewhere that the U.S. Navy participated in only one naval battle in WW 1, and that was the attack on Durazzo in Albania in 1918. The Austrians had established a submarine base in Durazzo (on the Adriatic Sea, across from the "heel" of Italy). Most of the action involved the Italian and the British navies. The American contribution being made by small (110 Ft. )submarine chasers which did some mine sweeping and some submarine detecting, and also sank one Central Powers submarine poised to attack the Allied ships. Can any SMML WW 1 naval historian confirm ( or correct ) this opinion? The ongoing Battle of the Atlantic is something else again, I am referring to a battle lasting for only a day or so in which American surface ships slugged it out with German counterparts. Thanks. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Re: Ruse de guerre, 8th June, 1944 It is good to have a man like Tony Ireland on the list. Not only has he experienced a lot, but he can also tell it. Normally when I see, that there are something from him, I stop reading and print it out. Those 1. hand stories has to be enjoyed from paper. Yesterday we not only got an air attack, but also the scuttling of Courbet. She was a ship of like the American Arkansas - same size, speed, armour and number of 12" guns. I have always wondered why she was scuttled, (might be a question of to many Battleship an to few French 12" shells) and I am surprised, that it was done on such deep water, that none of her guns was useable. Even without his Midshipman´s Journal Tony does have a good memory, but according to my books, it was not on the mid morning the 8. of June - it was the 9. of June that Courbet was scuttled (one day of in 58 years). But one mistake I think, that I have found. H.M.S. Warspite did have 3 useable 15" turrets at that time, not two - she only lost one to the glider bomb. I have read, that the British did trim there bombardment ships at Normandy to get a few extra degree of elevation on there main guns, to be able to reach targets out of rang. To do that on broadside might be bad fore stability, but head on, it would course no danger to the ship. This might be the situation Tony describe, and I would like to ask Tony: did the back end of Warspite lay low in the water at that time? Erik Erhardtsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Schiefet@cs.com Subject: John Wanamaker resturant >> When it was a fire boat in Philadelphia it was the "John Wanamaker". << The John Wanamaker is now in Portsmouth, NH, moored adjacent to the bridge to Maine. It is still a (pricey) restaurant. Steve Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: WTB: CW 1/350 USS Alaska Hi SMMLies, I am looking for a Classic Warship's USS Alaska CB 1, 1:350 scale full hull unbuilt kit. Anyone out there have one just sitting on the shelf waiting for a new home? Thank you, Keith You may contact me off line if you wish, KTB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume