Subject: SMML VOL 1771 Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:39:28 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Kit Feedback 2: Endoscopes 3: questions on identification of sailing ships 4: Le Cerf 5: Re: HMS Nairana 6: Re: Artificial Reefs 7: Ancient Ship Models 8: Re: Windtalker movie: What Fletcher did they use??? 9: HMS Dreadnought model 10: Canopy painting 11: Re: Dockyard Models 12: Re: Dockyard Models 13: Re: aircraft canopy painting - tips please? 14: Re: Junk Ships Disposal 15: Korean turtle ship 16: aircraft canopy painting - tips please? 17: NS Savannah 18: Torpedo dropping gear 19: ships sunk as reefs 20: Re: Ship Scrapping 21: Re: Need help -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Naval architecture/aircraft books, naval prints for sale in Aust -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: TechnoInfidel@webtv.net (John Collins) Subject: Kit Feedback Greetings; I recently bought some resin kits and thought that I would pass my opinions on. and solicite your impressions of the kits. First, I went out on a limb and bought the HP HMS Invincible, 1909 version. I know that we've written volumes on HP Models in general, and consensus is that each model varies widely in quality and accuracy. In the box, this kit looks cleanly molded with the level of detail similiar to some of the early Samek kits. I haven't compared the model to plans; I don't have any. (I usually buy the model before I buy the aftermarket stuff.) I haven't cut out any parts for a test fit, so I can't comment on that. Mine had the ram part of the bow chipped off. I was thinking of using super glue to build the ram back up, but it seems a dodgy repair given the curve of the ram. Any other suggestions on the repair? I would certainly prefer a WEM or WSW kiton these subjects, but this one is presently the only game in town. Does anyone else have any experience with this kit? Kombrig Soobrazitelny. This is the third Kombrig that I've acquired. It has come a long way both in model quality and casting quality since the Kirov. At first glance, the quality of detail remineded me of the Italian manufacturers. Separately cast stairways, peloruses, directors and bridge stuff. The gunhouses are really houses not just blocks of resin. I was very impressed with the kit itself and the vast qualitative improvement the manufacturer has shown. I haven't measured or test fit, but it is a handsome kit of a handome ship. Any other opinions? I seem to remember someone asking for info on this ship. Art Nicholson, perhaps? At the same time, I bought the Regia Marina RN Turbine. After I had compared the Soobrazitelny to the work of the Italians, I opened the Turbine's box. It seems, that Italians took the logical step to improve their already excellent kits. This kit is moulded in a smooth, gray resin rather than the grainy tranlucent tan stuff. The parts came out cleaner and apparently less brittle as I had no fractured small parts--a first for an Italian kit for me. It kit also had a few pieces of photoetch for the twin 20mm/65 Breda gun mounts and some other unidentified stuff. A bit pricey at US$35, but worth every penny. Bill Gruner at Pacfic Front introduced a new line of kits from Battlefleet. The line includes three harbor and yard tugs, the USS Peoria, a Tacoma class frigate (?) and several US WWII destroyers. I had ordered the Peoria, but it was backordered. Has anyone seen any of these kits? I enjoyed the threads about Count von Luckner and Tony Ireland's adventures. Great World Cup so far, wouldn't you say? Congratulations to all teams. John Collins Atlanta, GA, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Endoscopes Regarding medical surplus scopes. Do you know where these things have been?! YECCH. Why not look into purchasing a new pistol/rifle shooter's borescope instead. Most of the major gun magazines carry ads for them and they're intended for everyday use. A new borescope isn't all that expensive and parts are readily available. Happy modeling, Victor Baca -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: questions on identification of sailing ships http://picpage7.tripod.com/97b.jpg This is a French ship with 44 or 48 guns, 17th century, any help? http://picpage7.tripod.com/97d.jpg This is a French ship with 24 guns, 17th century, any help? http://picpage7.tripod.com/97e.jpg This is a French frigate with 18 gunports, 17th century, any help? http://picpage7.tripod.com/248.jpg Any information on this sailing vessel? 19th century, 12-gun-sloop, Danish drawing http://picpage7.tripod.com/178c.jpg Any information on this ship of the line with 70 guns, FY 1745, 160 ft (48,77m) gundeck length, 1450 ts disp. http://picpage7.tripod.com/150_1.jpg Any information on this Dutch-style influenced ship, built around 1630? http://picpage7.tripod.com/243.html Any information on this Dutch frigate? http://picpage7.tripod.com/150m.jpg Any information on this Dutch built ship? Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://www.geocities.com/friedkappes/flagship.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Kerry L. Jang" Subject: Le Cerf Hi David, and thank-you for the nice comments on my model! This is my first *miniature* sailing ship, though I have built sailing ships in the past out of wood and scratch to much larger scales. I decided to tackle a minaiture ship to see if I could do it, and try out the different skill set. there two excellent books on miniature sail. My favourite is Philip Reed's book mentioned on the website, and the other is Lloyd McCaffery's "Ships in Miniature". McCaffery's book also deals a bit with steel ships. John Bowen's "Miniature Merchantmen" is another excellent books to pick up techniques. Working in miniature I found to be quite different from working in larger scales, so it was a challenge, but I am now hooked. The other reason why I deceided to try a miniature from scratch was that I had enoughs crap wood from other projects laying about and I a) wanted to use it up and not let it go to waste, and b) prove to my wife that I can build a model without spending a fortune. She was commenting on my recent pruchase of several plastic and resin kits -- White Ensign Models and Pacific Front Hobbies evil!! >> Oh, and do tell us also what you used for the sails! << I used drafting vellum paper for the sails. A sheet is airbrushed with a coat of Gunze Sangyo's "sail color", darkened a bit with black. The seams are simply drawn on in pencil. I attached boltropes to the inside edge of the sails made out of painted twisted copper wire. This allowed me to shape the double curvature of the sail to make it look like it was starting to catch the wind. >> Every time I see something like this, I realise how satisfying it is to do something entirely from scratch, and to use the old tried and tested skills of working with wood. I must get through the pile of plastic and resin and then back to some "real" model making. << Yes, making models from scratch is very satisfying. I know that you are not denigrating kit built models with your - "real" notation - but before someone misreads it and takes offense, "real" modelmaking is any kind of model making. Kits are great if it is the subject of the ship you want, and anything to get me there faster is great by me. I love plastic and resin kits and they have their own challenges and take quite different skills to make. I must say however, that building a kit is working with someone else's design and engineering, and I find that more difficult than doing it my way from the get go! Best regards, Kerry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Chris Hughes" Subject: Re: HMS Nairana For details of Operations involving HMS Nairana, try reading "Bring back my Stringbag" by Lord Kilbracken, aka Lt Cmdr John Godley DSC. He gives a fascinating account of his wartime service flying the Swordfish! Sorry if you've already read this book Ian, but it's worth bringing it to the attention of a wider audience. Regards, Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Darren Subject: Re: Artificial Reefs Aside from the fact that this is getting way off track, the clean up of the ships is done by the dive groups. In brief, a local dive group gathers community and governmental support, successfully bids on a ship up for tender ( highest bidder), arranges for transport to a place it can be parked for months while they remove everything they can and cut holes for divers. I was recently on the Ex-HMCS NIPIGON, a Canadian DDH, that is being readied by a Quebec group for sinking in the St Lawrence River. I wish to MODEL her, there on topic content : p. Anyway, in order to get these ships, they have to be for sale first, which a lot of the USN boneyard ships aren't yet. Canada doesn't keep a boneyard, so they all get sold fairly quick. Any idea how much an Ex-USN ship would cost? The CDN DDH's go for around $230,000CDN. One last thing, support for these ventures doesn't always come easy. Several groups efforts have been hampered to the point of quitting due to unfriendly, or non-helpful government officials and locals not wanting the ship in their backyard or helping to pay costs. Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Ancient Ship Models Nice thread about the ship models, much more than the History Channel alledged models show. So what drawings or hull model did Noah work from? What did he know about cubits and hull forms, sheer, camber, metracentric height, and righting arm? LOL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: stillmo@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: Windtalker movie: What Fletcher did they use??? Havent seen it yet but only the trailer....which shows an active Fletcher. Looked good, is that the Mexican Navy ship? RD Bean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: HMS Dreadnought model Considering the fame of this ship, I am not aware of any models in either 1:700 or 1:350 scale (or even 1:400/500/600), plastic or resin of this vessel. Any ideas? Regards Les Brown -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Jeff Herne, NJAHOF" Subject: Canopy painting I paint the canopies lite metallic blue...IJN Interior Blue mixed with some silver, to a light blue, then use a 000 liner brush to do the frames...liner brushes are great because the bristles are very long, and by putting paint just on the tip, you can drag the brush and adjust the pressure and direction before the paint reaches the piece. Jeff Herne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Dockyard Models To Gene Larson You have demonstrated another advantage of participating in SMML conversations, the opportunity to learn more about something you are really interested, or to have misconceptions corrected. I am not humiliated by not knowing something, the shame is in not being willing to either learn or be corrected, and thus know properly. Thank you for your generosity of sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Dockyard Models To David Griffith See my response to Gene Larson. I agree that there may be little evidence to either support or to refute your opinions or the opinions of other people. any or all of which may or not be partially, fully, or exclusively either correct or incorrect (no, I have never practised Law in Philadelphia). But it is through the willingess of people like you and Mr. Larson in SMML that we may all may just edge a little closer to the truth. I am glad to be a sort of catalyst in this process, in which we all benefit. Thank you for your input. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Re: aircraft canopy painting - tips please? >> And now comes the moment everybody who has built an aircraft carrier model looks forward to - painting a couple of dozen teeny tiny aircraft. Can I ask fellow SMMLies what their favourite/best/easiest technique is for painting the canopy 'glass' and frames of naval aircraft? The scale is 1:480 and the planes are TBDs, BT-1s and F3Fs for a 1940 Yorktown air group in all of its pre-war glory. << The easiest way would be to use small thin strips of silver decal film. Cut them to the proper width (.01"?) and length and apply. Another way would be to paint them on. A third option would be to paint the entire canopy a solid silver-blue color and be done with it. In that small a scale nobody would criticize you for not adding the birdcages. >> Techniques that don't involve individually masking off every single pane especially welcome! << Of course, you realize this is the most accurate and correct way to do it!! James Corley AAA Hobby Supply email: aaahobby@earthlink.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Re: Junk Ships Disposal >> Before they are allowed to sink a ship in US waters, they have to go through the entire EPA/OHSA/etc cleanup. No chemicals, petro or otherwise, are allowed to escape into the ocean. Thus, the cost factor remains high. << Which is why nearly every sinkex takes place in international waters, many are over very deep trenches, too. The main LantFlt site is over the Puerto Rico Trench (8600m+), while the PacFlt exercises are either well offshore of Hawaii (4000m+), Guam/Marianas Trench (9000m+) or off Okinawa (7500m+). Seems like I remember one being of the coast of NZ over the Kermadec Trench (9000m+) At these depths, it is felt that the environmental impact is minimal due to the high pressures, general lack of life at the bottom of the trenches (the deepwater oasis are associated with volcanic venting near expansion zones, not subduction zones) and restricted water flow. Also, the EPA has no authority over international waters. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Korean turtle ship I recall that someone queried the list about Korean turtle ships quite some time ago. If that person is still aboard, the latest catalog from Model Expo list a 1:100 wood and multimedia parts kit for $119.00 US. www.modelexpo-online.com Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER unique wood sculpture and fine scale models www.walruscarpenter.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "John Rule" Subject: aircraft canopy painting - tips please? So far I like to paint the canopies with a gloss dark blue. On small aircraft I think is quite effective. At least it is in 1:700 scale. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: ken.p.lemaster@exxonmobil.com Subject: NS Savannah Does anyone know of a source of good plans for the NS Savannah? I have the set of plans from Taubmann that were part of the Bluejacket Savannah model. Wiswesser has a Savannah plan set, but I have heard some cautions about using his plans as a sole source, also, since it is a single sheet, details would probably be left off. Scale Ship Modeler had a very nice article about building a RC Savannah and the author stated he had obtained copies of plans from a source in Washington DC. I tried to contact him through the local club he referred to, but his work has prevented him from attending for several years. I have someone in DC looking into whether the plans are still available from one of the archives there. Any other possibilities that any of you might know about? I do intend to purchase some of the photos from Sea Photo that were take at Patriots point while the ship was on display there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: " David and Alison Muir" Subject: Torpedo dropping gear Can anyone shed light on the torpedo cradle/dropping gear used on TBs during the 1880s/1890s? I am specifically after the gear fitted to Acheron and Avernus, the two Thornycroft style boats used to protect Sydney Harbour...but would be interested in photos or drawings of the gear fitted to British TBs of the era. The system seems to consist of a cradle that could be swung out to form an outriggger frame from which a Whitehead torpedo could then be dropped. Beyond that I have nothing...so any help would be appreciated! Regards, David Muir -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: ships sunk as reefs In regards to the old ...oops ex.. HMAS Brisbane ..i think they have to spend $2million or was it 3 million aussie dollars to make sure she is all clean. with the removal of traps or fire doors, special pipes, asbestos & the like. They moved her again yesterday..took her out into the middle of Sydney harbour using 3 tugs..sat her there for about an hour or 2 & then spun her back round & took her back to Garden Island Andrew -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Robert Healy" Subject: Re: Ship Scrapping To All, If you want to read about the difficulties of scrapping ships here in the US check out this site. The Baltimore Sun won a Pulitzer or something for this one in 1998. http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/shipbreakers/LOC_AAA_01A_887452240_99.shtml Also remember, Congress got involved a few years ago and banned export of environmentally hazardous ships, so they must be cleaned before we send it off to be broken up. Costly, costly, costly. Gov't snatched a couple of old DDG's back a few years ago for this reason. They have made it next to impossible to do anything but warehouse the ships until they become an imminent environmental threat....by sinking on their own. Regards, Bob Healy (Still USN for the duration...) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Need help John wrote: >> I am looking for a U.S. resident who is a retired pro modeler or some body who models as hobby who may like to help me do a project. The job is to do scratch the major hull parts of a 1/160 scale LSM. Complete in scale plans are available. << John, MicroGlass... www.microglass.net ...does custom work. They (He) will construct a master and make a fiberglass hull from your plans. I have never contacted the company about rates or schedule, but I suspect there may be a price break if they are allowed to add the resulting hull to their line. That said, you may want to consider a different scale (more common...but that's your business.) Hope this helps. Edd -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Chris.Evenden@ga.gov.au Subject: Naval architecture/aircraft books, naval prints for sale in Aust All prices in Australian dollars and do not include postage. US customers multiply these prices by 0.59. Thanks! Chris Naval Architecture for the Merchant Navy Exams, R. Munro-Smith, Hall Press, 1975 $15 Applied Mechanics for the Merchant Navy Exams, R. Munro-Smith, Hall Press, 1975 $15 Steam and Gas Turbines for Marine Propulsion, Maido Saarlas, Naval Institute Press, 1978 $15 Modern Warship Design and Development, Norman Friedman, Mayflower, 1979 $10 Merchant Ship Construction, H.J.Pursey, Brown, Son & Fergussan, 1978 $10 Merchant Ship Stability, H.J.Pursey, Brown, Son & Fergussan, 1978 $10 Practical Construction of Warships, R.N.Newton, Longmans, 1942 $25 Introduction to Naval Architecture, Thomas Gillmer & Bruce Johnson, Naval Institute Press, 1982 $30 Modern Ship Design, Thomas Gillmer, Naval Institute Press, 1975 $25 US Navy Aircraft 1911 - Present, Gordon Swanborough & Peter Bowers, Putnam, 1990 (No dust jacket) $50 Grumman Aircraft since 1929, Rene Francillion, Putnam, 1989 $65 Carrier Wars - Naval Aviation from WW2-Persian Gulf, Edwin P. Hoyt, Hale, 1990 $15 Limited Edition Prints Robert Taylor: Battle of Trafalgar $200 D-Day $200 South Atalantic Task Force (Falklands) $450 Also have Robert Taylor Aviation prints for those interested. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume