Subject: SMML VOL 1814 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:40:47 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: my stuff 2: Re: Higgins Boats in New Orleans 3: Re: Cruisers 4: Ships Boats 5: Re: Colour 6: Re: DLGs to Cruisers 7: Turret vs. Barbette vs. Mount 8: Re: Small parts, carpets 9: Re: DDG vs CG 10: disappearing photo etch recovery 11: USS Monitor Excavation Report 12: Re: Mosquito Fleet Book 13: Charles de Gaulle 14: What is a Cruiser? 15: Re: Nottingham 16: Re: Turrets & Barbettes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WSW/B-Resina resin kits 2: Ship Kits for Sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SSNBuff@aol.com Subject: Re: my stuff >> so without starting a battle or any arguments between SMML people here.. why then are the Ticonderoga class ships listed as cruisers (CG)???????? << Andrew, the Ticos are CGs for mostly political reasons. As stated earlier, they were originally DDGs and the Leahy's and Belknap's were DLGs. In the 70s, the navy was constantly pointing out that the USSR had so many more cruisers than the US. So to adjust that balance and keep Congress happy, the DLGs were renamed as CGs. And as the cost of the Ticos went up, it was more politically expedient to change then to CGs from DDGs. Sort of "Look, for the same money, now you're getting a cruiser!". These definitions have really clouded and do not mean as much as they used to. Just my opinion of course! Dean ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: MIKE.LEONARD@customs.treas.gov Subject: Re: Higgins Boats in New Orleans >> I am currently in New Orleans and would like any info about the Higgins boats and their location and setup in Louisana. << It's my understanding that a new Higgins boat was built from factory plans a couple of years ago and is on display at the D-Day Museum in New Orleans. MWL Alexandria, VA USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Re: Cruisers From: "Andrew Jones" >> so without starting a battle or any arguments between SMML people here.. why then are the Ticonderoga class ships listed as cruisers (CG)???????? << Capability and mission. The Ticonderogas, especially the VLS-equipped ones, are multimission and darn good at it. They are capable of large area, long-range AAW, ASW, ASuW and land attack, and are just about the only ships in existence that could operate independent of a carrier in _most_environments. (The Kirovs are the only other class that might, if they actually ventured to sea.) DD(G)s have either-or capabilities, having less AAW, ASW and/or ASuW, and smaller vessels are either single mission or considerably reduced capability. Interestingly, Long Beach never had real organic air capability, only a helo deck. I don't know if she could actually operate a helo other than refueling. Joe Poutre ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: Ships Boats Rich Sweeny asked in SMML1812 about sources of plans for ship's boats. Bon Steinbrunn & Rusty White responded in SMML1813 about a source of US boat plans. Here's one for the RN. One of the list participants, John Lambert, has plans for many of the Royal Navy's small boats. They are available through his site at http://www.john-lambert-plans.com/encom/index.htm Ed Mansfield, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Colour Just one more query: what do you do with the ICI book? While it has all those chips, what do you match them against? It's the same problem as trying to use the current Munsell Book of Color: none of the present chips match the 1929 book, due to revisions begun about 1944 and completed about 1962. Thus, you can't take the Munsell notation for, say, 5-N Navy Blue and match it using the current Munsell book. None of the world's navies, AFAIK, use the ICI notation system. So.... Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: DLGs to Cruisers Having served on a DLG(N), and having observed the redesignation to CG, I was struck by the timing: all the gun cruisers had been retired, leaving us with basically nothing classed as such, and there was the Soviet Navy with--CRUISERS! So suddenly (most of) the DLGs became--CRUISERS! To paraphrase Dr. Strangelove: "Mr. President, we must close the Cruiser Gap!" (pulling right arm down strenuously....). Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Mark Shannon" Subject: Turret vs. Barbette vs. Mount My understanding on this was that the original 'turret' was the type of structure on U.S.S. Monitor and H.M.S. Captain - it rotated on a track let into the deck structure, independent of the lower portions (similar to tank turrets through early WWII). Typically they were armed with muzzle loaders. In the late 1870's, as the British 'Royal Sovereign' class of pre-Dreadnoughts were commissioned, the main armament was breech loading, and was on an open-topped rotating structure with the shell and powder handling hoists, protected by a fixed non-rotating armored ring bulwark. Since it resembled the stiff collar of a uniform coat, it was dubbed 'en-barbe' or barbette. The guns were completely exposed. Later still, an armored hood over the guns was added to rotate with them, initially called a gun shield, then it became a turret again, but it really wasn't because it was just a rotating armored gunshield on top of the rotating portion of the barbette structure. So, strictly speaking, all of them are mounts. Only a self contained unit that rotates on a deck track is strictly speaking a turret (so, for instance, the catapults on WWII ships). And the main armament on a battleship has been mounted in a hooded barbette since the 1880s. Most of the other mounts are strictly speaking gunhouses - protected shelters for working the guns. Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Jim Warsher Subject: Re: Small parts, carpets Working in 1/700, I've found that a 'dustbuster' type hand-held battery vacuum cleaner with a piece of nylon stocking over the orifice will fetch up tiny bits without ingesting them. I reckon I have a better than 75% recovery average on 'lost' parts in the carpeting. Just leave it running until you hold it over a convenient place, switch off and the errant goodie will drop. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: MIKE.LEONARD@customs.treas.gov Subject: Re: DDG vs CG >> DLGs of the FARRAGUT class did not become Cruisers but instead went to DDG status, probably more because they looked like destroyers and not cruisers. << I think one reason also had to do with their limited fuel capacity, as compared to the LEAHY class and other DLGs that were reclassified as cruisers. The FARRAGUTs were very "short-legged" and ultimately all were sent to the Atlantic Fleet where this shortcoming would be less of an issue. MWL (Formerly of DDG-41) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Jansen,Matthijs M.P.T.W." Subject: disappearing photo etch recovery I have been reading all those messages about frustrated modellers who lost their PE in their carpet. i have two tips that have been very useful in recovering in some parts of my Tom's 1/350 Enterprise aircraft set (those really small wheel rims) 1) try shining a flashlight on the carpet. The PE part might give a reflection. 2) Take a nylon stocking from your wife/mother/grandmother/sister. Be really sure that it isn't damaged. Put it between the two parts of the tube of your vacuum cleaner. Now vacuum-clean your carpet. Besides a lot of dust, the stocking will catch your PE parts (at least if they really fell on the carpet). This trick saved a lot my landing gears, wheels and gear doors. greeting matthijs ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: USS Monitor Excavation Report For those of you who are interested in maritime archaeology, the US Navy and the Mariner's Museum are raising the turret of the USS Monitor http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/02monitor/logs/jul12/jul12.html Kevin W. Woodruff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: Mosquito Fleet Book >> "Building The Mosquito Fleet: The U.S. Navy’s First Torpedo Boats" By Richard V. Simpson Arcadia Press 2001 / 160 pages / $24.99 / ISBN 0-7385-0508-0 << Got an ordering address???? Also, are there any plans? If so, are they any good? Are there photos? Inquiring minds want to know... :-} Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "John Rule" Subject: Charles de Gaulle >> I saw this item for sale at eBay: 1/600 French Charles de Gaulle!! Rare!! << Actually even in such a small scale his nose must constitute a pretty large piece of resin. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Joel Labow Subject: What is a Cruiser? Norman Friedman defines a cruiser as a surface warship that (a) has a potent mix of offensive and defensive armament, (b) has some sort of static side protection system, and (c) has the size and 'presence' to serve as a flagship either in company or on detached service. With the possible exception of (b) IMHO the USN Aegis cruisers clearly make the cut. Even though they share a hull design with the Spruance class DDs they are clearly far more capable ships. Overlap in size and armament between ships designated as cruisers and smaller combatants is far from being a new thing. For example the RN 'C' and 'D' class cruisers by the time of WWII were hardly bigger and arguably less capable than the latest DDs. Indeed in 1941 HMS Delhi was refitted in a US shipyard with 5 5"/38 single mounts and the Mk 37 FCS (exactly the same main armament as the USN Fletcher class DDs). Most of the anti-aircraft cruisers built by both the RN and USN had DD type main armament. BOTTOM LINE: The Aegis cruisers are bigger than the majority of WWII cruisers and can blow any other formally designated cruiser out of the water without breaking a sweat (assuming enough Harpoons in the magazine!) while defending herself against comparable weaponry...that makes a cruiser in my book. Joel Labow ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: DortaB@aol.com Subject: Re: Nottingham I've guess I've been under a rock the last couple of days; whats this about Nottingham? George, asleep in Tampa Hi George, HMS Nottingham ran aground on Wolf Rock near Lord Howe Is (off the the east coast of Australia) last week. Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Turrets & Barbettes Eriksonn's "Monitor" was the first turreted ship (IIRC). The Monitor was described as a cheesebox on a raft, and this was exactly right. The entire battery was enclosed in the turret, which, I believe, was hung (pivoted) off a central post. The large amount of top weight this arrangement caused contributed to the low freeboard of the resulting craft. Other early armored ships had the guns mounted "en barbette", the gun was mounted on the deck and surrounded by a circular wall of armor, the barbette. This provided protection against direct fire, but not against plunging fire. However, at the short ranges of the day, plunging fire was not a major consideration. As ships got larger and able to carry more weight, and ranges opened up, "hoods" were incorporated over the barbettes for overhead protection. This pattern remained in use until the demise of big gun ships. If you look at a drawing of a WW2 battleship that shows the armored portion, the side belt armor usually extends only a few feet above the waterline. The armored deck ties the belts together, and the barbettes rise out of the armored deck, through several regular decks, to protrude through the weather deck, where they are topped by the hoods (turrets). The rest of the ship is there just for buoyancy and target practice! Edd ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: rms Subject: WSW/B-Resina resin kits Please check out our web site for great prices on all WSW and B-Resina 1/700 resin ship kits and accessories: www.wic.net/~rms/ New stuff available and not yet listed on the web site: WSW 700-19; Potemkin, Russian battleship, 1905 $46.00 WSW 700-42; Schleswig-Holstein, German predreadnought battleship, 1939 $46.00 Also, the merchant ship set (1 cargo ship, 1 oiler, 2 tugs) is listed on the accessories page (that is, not on the ship page). And finally, all of the accessories listed at $6.50 have been reduced in price to $6.00 I will fax a purchase order to WSW in Germany on Wednesday, 24 July 2002. Questions/orders? Please contact me off list: rms@wic.net Hope all of you are having a great summer! Lisa D. Norman / Rocky Mountain Shipyard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Simpson, Leo" Subject: Ship Kits for Sale My sad lifestyle has prevented me from making any kits for so long now that I have had to throw in my hand. I therefore have the following unbuilt ship kits for sale, and I am open to reasonable and sensible offers. Heller 1:400 Lutzow Admiral Scheer Graf Spee Prinz Eugen Gneisenau Scharnhorst Richlieu Nichimo 1:500 Ise Maya Atago Chokai Takao Tauro 1:400 Pola ICM 1:350 Koenig Grosser Kurfuerst Classic Warships 1:600 HMS Agincourt White Ensign 1:350 HMS Sheffield Blue Water Navy 1:350 USS S. Dakota USS Juneau IJN Furutaka Iron Shipwright/Commander Models 1:350 Graf Spee USS Alaska USS Tennessee/California/W.Virginia HMS Sirius SMS Seydlitz USS Nashville USS Pittsburgh Prinz Eugen Classic Warships 1:350 USS Salem USS N. Carolina IJN Kirishima ALL 1:350 RESINS ARE FULL HULL Accurate Armour 1:35 Type VIIc U-Boat Type XXIII U-boat Set of Torpedoes Three man crew Andrea 1:35 Type VII Conning tower and crew. I also have numerous aircraft and AFV kits if anyone is interested. All kits are located in the UK Leo Simpson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume