Subject: SMML VOL 1858 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:55:54 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: 2003 Nats 2: Project Completed 3: Re: Graf Spee - 1:150 scale 4: TORONTO "MIDSHIPS" 5: Mirage Models 6: Re: Best ship at the 2002 Nats 7: Naval Flags 8: Re: Graf Spee - 1:150 scale 9: Crew figures for 1/72 naval vessels 10: Pearl Harbor Blues (not to be confused with Hill Street Blues) 11: Pearl Harbor Blues - 2 12: Re: Tall ship in Australia 13: Re: HMS Nottingham is underway 14: Re: Graf Spee - 1:150 scale 15: McClusky info 16: Re: Prinz Eugen? 17: Chilean Sail Training Ship Esmerelda in Sydney 18: Re: Prinz Eugen? 19: Japanese modeler's web site 20: Re: Another Winner 21: Re: Eugen von Savoy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1: Re: Nats ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Re: 2003 Nats >> Absolutely! That particular theme was my contribution to the Nats. I wanted a category everybody from auto modelers to sci-fi could compete equally in. Even though the auto and Sci-Fi guys have their own themes, this allows jeeps, staff cars, etc., to compete as long as they are camouflaged in some way. How do the sci-fi guys get in on the theme? Ever hear of a Klingon Bird of Prey, or Romulan battle cruiser? It's a stretch, but they do have cloaking devices and would be eligible. And of course ships are included in the mix as well. << Finally, a category where I'm good enough to compete! I hearby claim, copywrite, trademark, and patent the following two model ideas: 1. An open-sided box painted black inside with a star field image in the background. Title: "Cloaked Klingon Bird-of-Prey" 2. A flat base with blue acrylic gel medium to simulate an ocean surface. Title: "Submerged SSBN" Loonily yours, Joe Poutre ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Dean, Tom" Subject: Project Completed Hi Gang: Just wanted to use this forum to thank a few people for their help. I have finally finished my model of a Halifax Class Frigate (1/96). It only took 3 yrs, although as I stated before, health problems got in the way. Longest time I ever spend on one project! I am writing this to illustrate just how valuable a list like this one can be. A number of list members responded to my request and or questions and greatly enhanced the accuracy of my model. Ron Hillsden of B.C. provided me with some wonderful pictures of the class that he himself took for the purpose of modeling. You all know that the best pics are those taken by a fellow modeler. These pictures alone added a years work to the making just trying to duplicate what I saw! "Rollie" from the Halifax Dockyards for providing me with accurate drawings, far above what I had. I still owe him dinner and a few beers at the "Split Crow", I plan on coming east next year Rollie. Mac from Mac's Navy Pages, whose home page has numerous pictures of the class and who sent me a few pic's of areas of the ship of which I need assistance. Last but not least, Darren Scannell, whom I had the pleasure of meeting when he stopped at my home on one of his book buying trips. He saw the model in its early stages (the one where you don't want anyone else to see it time) and hope would be pleased with what he would see now. Darren provided information on paint mixing for the model, even providing me with actual paint chips from his collection. He also produced excellent sets of signal flags that included the naval jack and national flag. He was always there when I asked a dumb question by e-mail. Thanks to these guys and all the others that helped with information on this list and not to forget the list masters. So, like I say appreciate the opportunities a forum like this can provide to you and how when used properly can enhance the hobby. Hopefully I will be able to send Shane some pics of this model and others in the near future for inclusion on the site. Thanks again everyone, Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada ps: if you go to the home page of IPMS and follow the links they have a number of pictures of the latest conference and the models, including a few of Darren's wonderful H.M.C.S. TORONTO ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: URUDOFSKY@aol.com Subject: Re: Graf Spee - 1:150 scale Go to John Asmussen's Bismarck web site (http://www.bismarck-class.dk) and click on "Models" and page down to Admiral Graf Spee, Markus Titsch. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Dean, Tom" Subject: TORONTO "MIDSHIPS" Rusty: Only having a few pictures available of Darren's model of TORONTO, and from the description, what I think you might be referring is the enclosures on either side for a type of scramble netting that can be dropped over the side. Can't make out in the pictures if the line is yellow or not, but have seen the nets in yellow or white line. Can't think of anything else in that area fitting the description. Tom Dean ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: David Miller Subject: Mirage Models Has anyone seen or built any of the (Poland) Mirage line of 1/400 ship models now available through Squadron? They have two or three WW1 and some between the wars model torpedo boats, costal defense boats, and a number of Polish and German subs. They also have separate photo-etch sets for these. They are also cheap, the models run between 5 and 12 dollars, and the photo-etch sets are under 10 dollars. They also have a 1/100 trawler in their line. I ordered a sub, torpedo boat, and trawler and photo-etch and am interested to see if anyone has heard of these. Dave Miller, Macomb IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Best ship at the 2002 Nats >> As to the Constitution taking Best Ship...anyone who puts that much work into a kit deserves a break when it comes to judging. And, to assume that the larger subject will always beat a smaller subject is a great disservice to the judges, and the builders of all the models on the tables. << In my opinion as Head Ship Judge, the Constitution deserved best ship. While it had some basic modeling flaws (every model does), the absolute ENORMITY of the project could not IMHO be ignored. This WOOD model was made entirely from scratch using the model company's plans as a guide. I'm operating from memory here, but as I recall the deck had the same exact number of planks as on the real ship at the beam while it had over 3000 individually cut copper rectangles with 1mm over lap on all the edges of every one of them! There were also (according to the modeler. I wasn't going to count them) over 1000 tied knots in the rigging and ratlines, as well as the wonderful rope ladder at the top of the masts! And the list went on and on and on! As I said, it had some basic modeling flaws but given the enormity of the overall project that had to be taken into consideration. The Canadian subject mentioned while an excellent model had a few problems with it as well that I personally noticed (even though I didn't judge any categories). Even with it's (very few) flaws, it still took first and deservedly so. One of my jobs as Head Ship judge is to "check" the selections for 1st 2nd and third in each category to make certain there isn't anything out of the ordinary that someone could complain about. In other words, if an absolutely excellent model takes second and I can't see why by looking at the first place model, I'll call the judges back and have them explain their placement of the models. I felt absolutely certain about the Constitution as Best Ship and had no trouble whatsoever selling it to the Head Judges when it came to voting on Best Of Show. Incidentally, Best of Show had some basic flaws as well. Rusty White # 20181 IPMS/USA Head Ship Judge ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Arjun Sarup" Subject: Naval Flags Hi, There was a post about naval flags. The USN and RN aren't the only navies using flags with a 2:1 ratio. The Indian Navy uses a similar ratio for its ensign, this being larger than the national flag when used to dress ship. Sizes are as follows: Carriers / Fleet Tankers: 480 x 240 cm Destroyers / Frigates: 360 x 180 cm Corvettes: 240 x 120 cm Missile boats: 120 x 60 cm There are other sizes, but these four are the standard ones used. Best wishes, Arjun Sarup Mauritius Warships - http://pages.intnet.mu/warbirds/warships/index2.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Peter Samolinski" Subject: Re: Graf Spee - 1:150 scale In regards the 1:150 Graf Spee model: just go to the Bismarck site indicated and click on "Models", this model is about the third one listed. (The "html" part of his long address wasn't highlighted for some reason, that's why you can't click on it.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Crew figures for 1/72 naval vessels I remember that someone was asking about this recently, and as I have a few in the attic/under construction, it has just occurred to me that there is another source that may not have been mentioned yet. The figures in question are actually designed as vehicle crews but many are full figure and have clothing which is close to or identical in cut to WW2 naval uniforms, at least for British and German coastal forces. They also have loads of character, some are designed to fit awkward spaces like gun turrets and they are very well proportioned. I suspect that those with surgical skills could even undertake head and limb transplant operations. The company is called AB Figures and there is a website at www.abfigures.co.uk which has full lists and some illustrations. If enough people want them, he might even be persuadable to make a few specifically naval types perhaps? These are definitely the best white metal crew figures I have seen (OK, there isn't much competition) and I recommend them unreservedly, although I have no connection with the company than as a customer. Robert Lockie Swindon UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Snyder Subject: Pearl Harbor Blues (not to be confused with Hill Street Blues) As promised, here is more data concerning which ships were wearing what around the time of the attack: On January 18, 1942, Commander Destroyers, Battle Force sent a memo to CINCPAC (Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet) on the "Visibility of Ships - Camouflage Experiments". Referring to a CINCPAC letter of September 8, 1941, and a CINCPAC despatch of November 1941, he wrote: "1. in accordance with instructions contained in references (a) and (b), five destroyers of Destroyer Squadron FIVE were painted as follows: "U.S.S. PORTER (DD356) - Formula 5-S was applied to all vertical and horizontal surfaces. [Note: this was Measure 1A] "U.S.S. FLUSSER (DD368) - Formula 5-N was applied to all vertical and horizontal surfaces. [Note: this was Measure 1C] "U.S.S. DRAYTON (DD366) - Sapphire Blue paint was applied to all horizontal and vertical surfaces except that formula 5-S was applied to the decks. [Note: this was Measure 1B] "U.S.S. MAHAN (DD364) - Formula 5-S was applied to all vertical surfaces up to the main deck sheer line and to all horizontal surfaces; Formula 5-O was applied to all remaining vertical surfaces except pole masts which were painted with Formula 5-H. [Note: this was Measure 12] "U.S.S. LAMSON (DD367) - The ship was painted in accordance with Measure 2 of Ships - 2 (First Edition) substituting Formulae 5-N, 5-O, and 5-S for Formulae 5-L, 5-O, and 5-D respectively. [Note: this was Measure 2A] "2. In order to obtain the information necessary for the report required by reference (c) [Note: a CINCPAC letter of October 6, 1941, Commander Destroyers, Battle Force, published reference (d) [Note: a letter of November 5, 1941]. In this letter observers were asked to compare the above ships with each other and with any other ship in the vicinity painted with Formula 5-D. Because of the relatively few times the above ships were at sea and available for observation prior to the outbreak of war, and because more urgent matters have occuiped personnel since, relatively few reports have been received. The reports received, however, do warrant the drawing of certain conclusions." Briefly, the conclusions that color made no difference when the ships were silhouetted; that in clear weather the darker colored ships were more visible day or night, but that a long ranges the Sapphire Blue (DRAYTON) appeared as light as the lighter colors; that the graded system ships (MAHAN & LAMSON) were the first to become invisible in hazy weather, followed by DRAYTON; that the blue-painted ships gave best target angle deception at all ranges; that none of the paint schemes gave any camouflage of type (meaning all ships were still identifiable as destroyers). The report also found that the darker ships were less visible from the air. The report concluded that Sapphire Blue was the best color, but noted that it lacked good adherence (a fault that was never to be corrected, and the color never went into fleet use). It is clear that color tests were still underway in the Pacific Fleet at the time of the attack. There had been no wholesale repainting, or adoption of new camouflage measures. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: John Snyder Subject: Pearl Harbor Blues - 2 Backing up a bit in time, on July 14 1941 BUSHIPS (U.S. Navy Bureau of Ships) informed the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) that Norfolk and Mare Island, the Navy's two paint manufacturing yards, were already issuing 5-D Dark Gray, 5-U White, and 5-TM blue tinting paste, and that contracts had been placed to have the appropriate raw materials delived to Cavite for the Asiatic Fleet. BUSHIPS also informed CNO of recent proposals by CINCPAC (Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet) to replace 5-D Dark Gray and 5-L Light Gray with 5-S Sea Blue and 5-H Haze Gray. BUSHIPS forwarded samples of all 5 paints to CNO for comment. Note that this was a "proposal" by CINCPAC, and obviously required approval from higher up. On July 29, 1941 BUSHIPS wrote to the Chief of Staff of the Atlantic Fleet, notifying him that BUSHIPS was directing Norfolk and Mare Island to develop a single tinting paste that could be used in different quantities with 5-U to produce 5-H, 5-O, and 5-S. The letter noted that the forthcoming revision to Ships-2 (which would be promulgated in September) "contemplates the use of these three prospective colors." Obviously, they weren't yet in use; the BUSHIPS letter noted that samples of 5-S and 5-H had earlier been sent to the Fleet for comment, and also referred to upcoming tests of Sapphire Blue and Haze Green. On September 13, 1941, CINCPAC selected the proposed new Measure 11 as the preferred camouflage for the Pacific Fleet. However, experiments were still going on at BUSHIPS, and on October 16, 1941 ten more paint samples were reviewed for consideration: White Base 5-U, 5-L Light Gray, Haze Green, 5-O Ocean Gray, 5-D Dark Gray, Submarine Blue (formulas 1, 2 & 3), Sapphire Blue, and Ultramarine Blue in Spar Varnish. On November 27, 1941, CINCPAC requested COMBATDESFOR to paint one destroyer in Measure 1C (this was FLUSSER), which was Measure 11 but substituting 5-N Navy Blue for 5-S Sea Blue. This confirms that 5-N Navy Blue, as a color, was in existence 8 months before its official promulgation in the June 1942 revision to Ships-2. It also indicates that FLUSSER was the only PACFLEET ship so painted at that time. By Atlantic Fleet Confidential Letter 13 CL-41 dated November 4, 1941, and by Pacific Fleet Confidential Notice 21 CN-41 dated 16 December 1941, CINCLANT and CINCPAC respectively ordered the substitution of 5-N Navy Blue for 5-S Sea Blue. On December 19, 1941, CINCPAC (flying his flag in PENNSYLVANIA) wrote to BUSHIPS to report that 5-S Sea Blue was too light and reported the ordered substitution of 5-N Navy Blue. Sea Blue, quite obviously, was on its way out. Deck Blue 20-B was approved for use on Atlantic Fleet carriers on December 12, 1941. On February 13, 1942, BUSHIPS sent an "Airmailgram" to the Supervisor of Ships at Orange, Texas, ordering the substitution of 5-N Navy Blue for 5-S Sea Blue for ships painting up for Pacific service. Measure 21 was clearly in use at least 4 months before it officially came into being. I have copies of all the above-cited materials in my possession. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: Tall ship in Australia Sounds like that might be Esmerelda? I believe she sometimes finds demonstrators awaiting her on such visits because she was reportedly used as a detention/interrogation center by the Chilean security services after Allende was overthrown. Robert Mosher www.combatic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: HMS Nottingham is underway >> After the installation of 8 tonnes of timber and steel shoring, HMS Nottingham started its voyage to Newcastle (NSW). The Nottingham is being towed backwards to reduce pressure on the damaged hull. << David - Who's towing? RN? Or did they hire the Dutch? Robert Mosher www.combatic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Graf Spee - 1:150 scale >> http://www.bismarck-class.dk/shipmodels/german_models/admiralgrafspeetitsch.html I would very much like to see the pictures but the URL does not work - gives me a 404!!! Any suggestions? << Yes, the address wrapped. Add a "html" to the end. Look closely at the above to see what I mean. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Schiefet@cs.com Subject: McClusky info Another source for McClusky information, other than what is on cv6.org, would be "A Glorious Page in our History" by Cressman, Ewing, Horan et. al. It's published by Historical Publishing and is available through the CV6.org bookstore. I am told it is well worth the modest price. Steve Pelham, NH ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Chuck Messer" Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen? Hello, all. It appears the article I quoted had some inaccuracies. I've been e-mailed by a well informed member concerning this subject. Apparently, there was some sloppy scolarship and journalism in that article. In other words: Never mind. Like they say in the western U.S.: "You can't believe half what you hear, ner half what you eyeball." Chuck ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: Chilean Sail Training Ship Esmerelda in Sydney Just spoke to the navy..sorta don't know don't care attitude with the PR dept.. but the switch operator did check..only Chilean groups only, so best speak to the Chilean Embassy if you are really keenly interested (and probably speak Spanish) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Sab1156@aol.com Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen? In reply to the Prinz Eugen book mentioned: The winered painting on the upper parts of the 20,3cm turrets was for air-recon. during the Norway campaign. I would like to commend to the letter about german citizens of jewish faith in world war one: They were generally excluded from military service,but many of them (about 24.000) served voluntarily and lost about 60% dead! There was no discrimination from the government side, because the first german fighter-pilot which got the Pour le Merite, the highest imperial medal was Max Immelmann, a german Jew! It is an interesting historic side story,that one of Wilhelm II closest friends, Albert Ballin,who build and owed the most of the large fourstacker passenger liners,was of jewish faith. When he heared,that the Kaiser had to go into exile,he comitted suicide! Detlef Hartwig ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: DENMARAVON2@cs.com Subject: Japanese modeler's web site During the recent discussion about modelling incredibly small things. it was mentioned that the japanese modeler who buitt those beautiful models of akagi and mussashi had translated his page on making the 1/700 aircraft, into english.I can't find theurl for his web address - could someone please post this again? Many thanks Denis Campbell Avon MA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Re: Another Winner From: RLapadura@aol.com >> As to the Constitution taking Best Ship...anyone who puts that much work into a kit deserves a break when it comes to judging. << Ron, that is the same as saying the bigger the ship the more points it can take. No model deserves to be discounted simply becasue it is smaller. How do you know that the guy who built the HMCS Shawinigan put more or less work into the kit? Once you open that door, then the basic skill level of each modeler comes into play. The guy who built the Constitution and the racing yacht (which has some major flaws!) builds them as the prototypes of kits for Model Expo (for money too) - I could take these facts into consideration and claim that the ship was not as complex as it seemd since he did this for a living and he should lose "points" for exactly the reason you stated above: Since it is part of his livelyhood it isn't as much "work" as somebody who is spending a few hours here and there for several months trying to "get it right" and putting more "work" into a model simply because his skills are at a lower level. We did face this type of situation with two Soviet river monitors (PBRs with tank turrets) that were nicely done but had no detail at all. They were 1/385 GHQ (?) models and were painted an overall dark (gunship?) grey. The only problem they really had was they were such small craft and so plain with no depth. we considered moving them to 418 (boats, PTs, etc) but they didn't fit the category there either. These two made the first cut (basics) but just didn't hold up with the rest. As a judge, I put NO emphasis on the complexity of the work until there is no other way to differentiate between placement of awards. There were some tough decisions to be made at the table this year, my team did its level best to judge them as fairly as humanly possible. The toughest thing this year was how to split two categories with no obvious groupings. BTW, good work on the Furutaka! James Corley AAA Hobby Supply email: aaahobby@earthlink.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Kathy/Pirie Sublett" Subject: Re: Eugen von Savoy Before this gets too far afield, I don't know if the Prinz Eugen for whom the many ships are named was Jewish, but I do know he was not a contemporary of Napoleon. He was a colleague of the Duke of Marlborough (John Churchill) in the War of the Spanish Sucession. He died in 1736. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Rod Millard" Subject: Re: Nats Hi Had a great time at the Nats. It was great to see all the first rate models and modelers. Even my wife had great time thanks to other modelers wives from this group and new acquaintance we met. Getting to the models. Even though I'm a sail guy that Toronto was nice. I'd would have hated having to be the ones to have to make the choice between that and the Constitution. Man if you couldn't make it you missed some great ship models. Rod Millard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume