Subject: SMML VOL 1860 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:01:04 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: DML Dragon's 1/35th kit of the LSSC 2: Prinz Eugen 3: IPMS USA 4: Re: Prince Eugen 5: The "P" in IPMS 6: A Navy Narration 7: 2 out of 3 books 8: Wooden Ships at IPMS 9: Re: IPMS judging (or lack thereof) 10: Re: rules & regulations 11: HMS NOTTINGHAM MAKES IT TO NEWCASTLE 12: Re: USS Constitution at Nats ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1: Re: judging & plastic content 2: Re: USS Constitution at Nats 3: Re: IPMS/US rules -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: 1/192nd scale submarine kits ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "RAY MEHLBERGER" Subject: DML Dragon's 1/35th kit of the LSSC I am building DML Dragon's 1/35 scale kit of the LSSC (LIGHT SEAL SUPPORT CRAFT). It is a river patrol boat used in Nam. However, I can find little...or no....pictures or tech data about it on the internet. Does anybody, here on SMML, have anything on this boat. I want to detail it out a little more as (other than the Seal figures) there is not too much in the kit to mount inside the fighting compartment (if that is the correct term for the interior?) Thanks, in advance, for any help. Ray Mehlberger Contributing Armor Editor for INTERNET MODELER MAGAZINE www.internetmodeler.com (sometimes ship modeler too) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Prinz Eugen >> It is very interesting to note how warships of three navies (Austria-Hungary, Germany and Italy) were named after the same individual (the only such example in history), an Italian (actually a member of the Savoy family) who fought on the side of Austria-Hungary and Germany in the XVIII century. << There was also a British monitor in WW I which was named after Prince Eugen of Savoya Falk Pletscher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: IPMS USA The amount of plastic, if any at all, has been thrown out of IPMS USA and I think the name should be changed to IMS. I am a long time member of I"P"MS USA, and I am also a professional model maker who uses every material I can find, however, I long for the days when IPMS required that modeled (including figures) be mostly plastic. It took a lot of ingenuity to make an outstanding plastic model without resorting to other materials and that's what made it so great and so much fun. OK, I'm off my soapbox now. Cheers, Bob Santos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Prince Eugen This prince Eugen saga is getting out of controll :-). Terry, Eugen could not have been Italian for could he fought for Germany since no such countries as Italy or Gemany existed during his lifetime. Regards D.P ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: The "P" in IPMS About five years ago, if memory serves, IPMS/USA made a rules change on the "minimum of 70% plastic content" of a model contest entry. This was done to bring the rules into alignment with reality. IPMS/USA had been allowing metal (and paper "flats") figures, artillery pieces, and ships, as well as model cars, in their competitions for years. The rule that a model must be of at least 70% "plastic" (polystyrene, ABS, fiberglass, acrylic, body putty, resin, what-have-you) made more sense years ago before the advent of "multi-media" kits which have resin, plastic, white metal, Britannia pewter, photoetch brass or stainless steel, included in their content. The car modeling community, in particular, has a large population scratch-building in brass and has asked for a long time to be able to place these pieces in competition. Now we see wooden ships which have NO plastic. In fact, the question has been raised "Why not eliminate the 'P' in IPMS?" Why not, indeed? Me? I embrace the change: I like to view good models and could care less what they're made from. Just an opinion, mind. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Nautical Research Guild IPMS/USA #3345 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: A Navy Narration An ex-Navy man, Tom Fisher, has posted an excellently written narration of his experiences in the U. S. Navy' fleet air arm in the 1959 to 1963 era. He became an aircrew member, and his essay contains click-on pictures, including the LSO station and the Fresnel lighting landing guidance system (Steve Wiper please note) of a carrier. There is also a picture showing what seems to be a C-130 transport plane on the deck of the ESSEX. How did they land it in such a confined space, and how did they get it off? And did you know what a "bolter" is (and the frequency thereof)? How did the aircraft detect a submerged submarine which was using its snorkel? Visit this site for an interesting read, http://icdweb.cc.purdue.edu~fishertr/tomnav.htm and enjoy. Yeah, yeah, I know the subject is not modeling, but I hope that Fresnel system will interest someone making a model of a carrier, it shows some interesting arrangement of the lights. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Phil M. Gollin" Subject: 2 out of 3 books I saw the re-prints of volumes 1 and 2 of Allied Coastal Forces in a London shop today - can't wait for volume 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Kerry L. Jang" Subject: Wooden Ships at IPMS The question of materials as being eligible in an IPMS show is an interesting one. There has been several exceptions to the "plastic" only rules for some time, even if it is not written down in some of the rules, for example, metal figures. In the case of ships, as a builder of ships from the age-of-sail in the main, these kind of ships are best built in wood. The selection of wooden sailing ships in plastic is very limited (Airfix and Heller being the most prolific producers) and of hackneyed subjects by and large. Builders of sailing ships are forced to scratch build if they want anything interesting and there sure are a lot of nice plans to build from these days!!! Just check out anything by Boudriot... http://www.ancre.fr Carving one of these flowing, curvy hulls are best carved and shaped in wood for practical modelling purposes. Its much easier to carve a block of basswood or jelutong than trying to shape a block of styrene or mill some perspex or plank over a plastic hull with plastic strips... I suppose the plastic purists would be happy if, after carving such a nice hull, I made a vacform copy of it in plastic! My point is, it is all rather redundant what the model is made out of. Lets concentrate on how nice the model is! Many of the IPMS shows I have been too have evolved into showcases of modelling of all manner of subject and material. I think this is a good thing. If you disallowed wooden ships at these competitions and shows, you would lose a lot of good models and we would all be the poorer. Would, the "plastic purists" disallow 1:700 metal ships, say the Skytrex or IHP kits from competition too? What about those Eduard see through or "strip down" etched brass WWI aircraft which are 90% brass... On my recent model of Le Cerf at http://www.nutsnbits.com/kerry.htm I used wood, brass and some *plastic*. Does the fact I used some plastic count? My seascape base is almost entirely plastic, does that count depite the fact the ship itself is 90% wood and 10% metal? I did use some plastic figues, does that get any points....? The reverse is also true, the use of plastic is a no-no in some wooden ship circles... I will use whatever I want and purists be damned... Dr. Kerry Jang Vancouver, Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Marsh Edwin Subject: Re: IPMS judging (or lack thereof) I find it interesting this discussion about how it was arrived that the model of the Constitution won first place, and best ship yet had so many flaws in it. It seems that the general consensus of the Head Ship Judge of IPMS is that rather than judging what the modeler put on the table, it is just as important what the modeler did to put it on the table. Now, I may just be being suspicious, but do you have absolute proof that the modeler did all he said he did? Did you personally count all the plates and planks and knots, or are you relying on the honesty of the modeler? Furthermore, where in the IPMS rules on judging does it say that any of this sort of influence should be taken into consideration as a part of judging? I have yet to find that in the rules. Now, in your latest response to this question, you mention that the Constitution has "basic modeling flaws" while the Toronto, "while an excellent model had a few problems with it". In reading this, it seems that the better of the two models was the Toronto. According to your own IPMS rules, basic flaws outweigh problems, so it seems that there is an interesting conjundrum occuring here. A head IPMS judge, ignoring his organization's own rules, places an inferior model over a superior one by making a value judgement based on unsubstanciated statements. Quite interesting. I bring this to your attention due to an interesting set of statements on modelwarship.com where a similar discussion is taking place. It seems, according to the statements of this witness, the Constitution was initially judged by a team of judges which contained a friend of this modeler. Also, this specific modeler won in another catagory that was also judged by this modeler's friend. There has also been a statement made that the head judge, who initially stated that the Toronto was flawless, upon finding out which company made the kit of the Toronto, lost all interest in this model. If all this is true or not is the concern of the parties involved, but it is interesting that by his own admission, the head IPMS ship judge is willing to violate his own organization's stated goals and not select the best model to be the best. Edgar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: Re: rules & regulations regarding the stars in a box with the cloaked Klingon Bird of Prey, don’t forget to slightly distort a few stars to get the real cloaked effect. In regards to what is a plastic model, maybe it is time that clubs looks outside the plastic viewport, with white metal resin coming in & the amount of Photo etched brass these days looking at just about replacing 90% of your kits, wouldn’t that sorta kick out a few modellers who like photo etched etc.. my example something I would love to build for APMA for end of year comps & would like to take to outside comps (1) I am hopefully going to complete a diorama of a luft 46 scene with 3 tanks (mostly resin plastic) about 30 troops (resin metal) ..now the problem is I could buy building fronts @ $70 - 120 aussie dollars each (and I want about 5 or 6 building fronts) get just basic construction points or scratchbuild some building fronts now the main problem is that if I go out & buy a thick sheet of plastic that’s nearly $16 per sheet (only enough for 1 façade) maybe shops like BBC etc might have cheaper plastic sheets I have not checked it out yet, but if I buy a sheet of timber at the same thickness I could do about all the building fronts for about $20..so if I tried to enter that in an "plastic comp" my guess is that would be ruled as not enough plastic right?.. another thing I would love to build..i have always toyed with the idea of building a 50% scale model of a T-rex skull, even went to the Australian Museum & spent my lunch hour taking measurements of just about everything..teeth, angles of the skull (imagine all the looks I got from people as they saw me with paper & pencil & a tape measure leaning inside the jaws to make notes on indents & stuff)..now I would make that out of wire & that modellers plaster stuff, again it would not be allowed at any "plastic modellers comp" .... ok for us ship modellers wouldn’t those Skytrex ship kits be a no no at a comp? resin metal aren't they? maybe if clubs look at the possibility of allowing "outsiders" of resin metal & wood they could increase their membership numbers.. I think APMA allows all types of models as there has been wooden kits & resin figures in end of year comps .. now I don’t mean to upset any IPMS people or any other club out other club that sticks to the rules 60+% plastic or no entry, just think of the possibilities of letting in the other forms of modellers & seeing what could happen As for large models against small models, I guess that war will always be fought, as like a brightly coloured/camouflaged warship against a deep dark grey monotone destroyer or sub well that’s my 2 bobs worth .. again I don’t mean to offend any club out there or start a war of words its just my thoughts regards Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Andrew Jones" Subject: HMS NOTTINGHAM MAKES IT TO NEWCASTLE The HMS Nottingham limped into the east coast Ausralian port of Newcastle today. The ship will be emptied of her deadly ordnance & undergo inspection in Newcastle to determine if her shattered bow can be repaired or whether the destroyer is to be scrapped. A 400 metre exclusion zone would be set up around the vessel when she berths to minimise any danger during the removal of her missiles. so guess any novacastrians on this link will race to water today or over the weekend to try to have a look at the battered ship ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: AAA Hobby Subject: Re: USS Constitution at Nats >> Rusty mentions this Constitution was made of wood...how does that fit into International PLASTIC Modelers Society?? (If it was the big Revell kit with wooden decking etc., then forgive me) The model was listed as "the model before you is the prototype for the Model Shipways kit" - but he later explains this away as it wasn't the ACTUAL prototype they used because he didn't have time to finish the kit for their deadline. BTW, this fellow had 6 models I saw and they were all the "prototype kit" of whichever subject. << As for fitting into IPMS, it doesn't, IMO. I have always felt that the models should at least have some form of plastic in it (resin, styrene, etc.) to qualify. We are the I*PLASTIC*MS after all. There are dedicated wood ship model organizations out there, the NRG model contest comes to mind. I overheard somebody (from the Mariners Museum?) say that the Constitution looked nice, but if it showed up at their event it would be shamed, and I agree. I have yet to see a model at IPMS that could compete with either the NRG contest or even at the Wisconsin contest in Manitowoc. These SERIOUS ship builders look down on us as novice builders (talk about elitist attiudes!) who play with our plastic boats. I really think it is too bad that IPMS completely removed the "plastic content" rule from the books. I can understand they were trying to "expand our audience" but they have done so to the detriment of the plastic hobby industry - which we are sworn to promote! Perhaps we need to address the issue once again and find a happy median. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: judging & plastic content >> Rusty mentions this Constitution was made of wood...how does that fit into International PLASTIC Modelers Society?? (If it was the big Revell kit with wooden decking etc., then forgive me) << The plastic only was modified some time back by the E-board (that was before the Contest Rules Committee existed). Mostly because (well before multi-media kits evolved) LOTS of cast metal figures began showing up at conventions around the country. >> In the builder's comments, he noted that he used brass, white metal and some small resin parts. While we could not find any flaws to the piece, the head armor judge argued up and down with us that this model, although perfect (the 2nd and 3rd place models were not) it could not win because it lacked the required amount of plastic in the construction. << Plain and simple, there is no "required" percentage of plastic in any entry at the regional or national level. The official IPMS/USA rules used at the VA Beach Nationals this year state: "3. COMPOSITION. The use of plastic as set forth, above, is encouraged; however, the use of other modeling materials is allowed as the builder sees fit. Judging standards of finish, attention to detail, and authenticity will be the same, regardless of the materials used." So, depending on how the rules for your particular regional were written, could or could not put this judge in violation of your rules. There is no requirement mentioned in the C&BLs that regional contests use IPMS/USA rules. So the plastic definition and/or percentage of plastic used in each entry would be governed by the host chapter's rules. Your local DLC controls the regionals. >> I'm playing devil's advocate here, because plastic has long since beensupplemented by photoetched brass, resin and white metal parts...has IPMS changed the rulings on the primary materials in construction? << Here's what the official IPMS/USA rules state about the plastic percentage used in each entry at the NATIONAL CONVENTION. As I said, depending on how the rules were written governing your regional, this could all be a moot point. "2. PLASTIC DEFINITION. For the National Contest "Plastic" is "any thermoplastic or thermosetting polymer, resin, or other materials which can be formed by heat, pressure, or vacuum-forming". This includes, but is not necessarily limited to, polystyrene, ABS plastic, celluloids, polyethylene, vinyls, epoxy and polyester resins, fiberglass, acetates, acrylics, nylon, other synthetic and monofilament fibers, and other plastic modeling compounds. Neoprene rubber is also defined as a plastic for this contest. Glazes and body putties (e.g., "Green Stuff") are not plastics; however, when used for filling seams, improving contours, creating unusual surfaces (e.g. "zimmerit" on armor), etc., they will be considered plastic. 3. COMPOSITION. The use of plastic as set forth, above, is encouraged; however, the use of other modeling materials is allowed as the builder sees fit. Judging standards of finish, attention to detail, and authenticity will be the same, regardless of the materials used." >> I've always noticed that larger models often use the 'wow' factor to their advantage, which IMO, is not right. Oftentimes, the larger scale models are not as well constructed as smaller subjects, yet, they are given a break because of the size and scope of the project. << Speaking as the IPMS/USA Head Ship Judge I can say (on the national level) size makes no difference whatsoever (that's what my wife keeps telling me anyway). Every year at the IPMS/USA national Convention I make basically the same speech at the "What Judges Look For" seminar. "A bigger model only means that there is more to screw up and go wrong." That's exactly how me and my judges look at large entries. We look for violations of the modeling basics, no matter how big or small the model. >> I know modelers who will spend thousands of hours on a project, folks such as Bob Steinbrunn and Gary Kingzett. And while they are obviously the top of the game and rarely lose at a competition, there are others who build projects who lose to some modeler who spends 100 hours fiberglassing a hull and adding HR Products to a project that requires a semi-truck to bring to the show....thank heavens Bob and Gary only finish 1 project every 2-4 years! :-) << Bob and Gary seldom lose at contests because they are damn good modelers. If you will recall, Bob Stienbrunn used to build aircraft models. Think back to his many articles in past issues of FSM and his INCREDIBLE aircraft cockpits. He and Gary are that much better now because they were really good then. Bob's aircraft were quite small and petite compared to the ships he builds now and he kicked butt in contests just as much then with aircraft as he does now with ships. The difference why these guys win so consistently is the judges. Well trained and qualified judges (like we have the national conventions) know what to look for in a model and can quick weed out the best from the worst. So much for the bigger is better theory. Check out the Competition Handbook on the IPMS/USA site to see exactly what we look for in category of model as nationals judges. I promise you will learn a lot. Better yet, volunteer and judge at the National Convention next year in Oklahoma City. If you want really know how to improve your models, just follow one of those teams around and listen. Do we take the complexity and size of a model into consideration? Sure. For instance, (as I said earlier) the Constitution had some basic model flaws as did every other model in the room. However, he did 5000 things right (just a guess) to maybe 10 or 20 wrong. That's a really good percentage in anyone's book. You can take this analogy the other way when looking at smaller vessels. If the modeler made 10 basic flaws to a model that took maybe 500 steps to complete, the average goes down considerably. Please understand this is an analogy only. We don't add up the parts or imagine how many steps it takes to complete model. That's why we as national judges take this into consideration comparing large and scratchbuilt models to smaller, simpler projects. This is also where our experience and training on the national level come into play. >> The only solution in my opinion is the addition of an award or category that focuses on the overall scope of a project...the sheer size...a large diorama, a scratcbuilt model with 6000 parts, etc....It's a major quandry when a small 1/385 ironclad is perfect, yet competes against a giant that's not... << No, it's not a quandary at all. Look at the latest issue of FSM at the IJN Fuso on the cover. This little ship (about 14" long) took 1st place in it's category and Best Ship at the Nats last year. It beat out a HUGE 5 foot long cruiser built by a professional. Why? Because the professional had never entered an IPMS/USA national contest and wasn't aware of what we look for in models. He violated some of the modeling basics that the guy who built much smaller (but no less difficult to build) Fuso and it cost him 1st place and Best Ship. The solution you seek is what I have touting for some time. What we need on the regional level is better trained judges who know what to look for. If we had the same OJT (On the Job Training) we have on the national level, I promise you there would be way less griping about bad judging. I've gone way too long on this so I'll hang it up for now and wait for the responses. Sorry to ramble. Rusty White # 20181 Head IPMS/USA Ship Judge Chairman, 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention http://www.ipmsmetrookc.org OKC In 2003! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Richa5011@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Constitution at Nats Jeff Herne wrote: >> the head armor judge argued up and down with us that this model, although perfect (the 2nd and 3rd place models were not) it could not win because it lacked the required amount of plastic in the construction. << The Head Armor Judge described here is clearly not Jeff, so don't take it out on him... That being said, under the current IPMS USA contest rules, there is NO requirement to use plastic in the model. At one time, there was a rule that stated that the model had to be atleast 75% plastic. However, that rule was removed some 12 or 15 years ago. A number of times in past years the Best Ship was built mostly or entirely of wood. Nat Richards ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: IPMS/US rules >> If I understand Rusty White's comments on the US Nationals, IPMS USA allows non plastic models for their annual contest. I was not able to find a full version of the US contest rules. Could anyone tell me where I can find them on the web and also on what ground it was decided to allow non plastic items to a 'Plastic' Modeling Society's contest. No criticism in this question, but I am the organiser of Belgium's National Contest and up to now, all models have to be made of at least 70% plastic, except for figures where traditionally metal is allowed. << Go to the IPMS/USA web site and click on the 2002 convention or the 2003 Nationals hyperlinks. You can find the rules there. Rusty White # 20181 Chairman, 2003 IPMS/USA National Convention http://www.ipmsmetrookc.org OKC In 2003! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: DRPREUL@aol.com Subject: 1/192nd scale submarine kits J&D Productions is proud to annouce its Brand New Line of 1/192nd scale Submarine kits.They will be available Sept 1. They are as follows; #1 Ohio Class.............$250.oo #2 Seawolf Class..........$175.oo #3 LA Class Flt. 1&2.......$195.oo #4 LA Class Flt. 3.........$195.oo #5 Virginia Class.........$175.oo #6 ASDS...................$35.oo All Kits are resin and R8 metal(lead-free) cast with hollow hulls, (ie. Ohio Class 3'long completed only weights 5 lbs.) All decals supplied for commissoning and in service markings. Decal are high quality silk-screened by Micro-scale. All kits have painting instructions for commissoning and in service paint schemes. For a preview of the kits go to our Website at: wwwjdproduct.com Once you are there go to kits and acces. to see kits and the decal set. You can see finished subs by proceding to the custom models section and viewing the subs that are on display at the USS Bowfin Museum at Pearl Harbor. Other submarines currently in progress are by class #1.Permit, #2.Long-hull Sturgeon, #3.Skipjack, #4. USS Nautilus SSN 571, #6. USS Seawolf SSN 575,and #7. USS Tullibee SSN597. As you can see by looking at the decal sheet the decals are all ready finished for these subs. All of these should be released within the next 6 mths. Don Preul....J&D Productions LLC...Annapolis, Md. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume