Subject: SMML VOL 1862 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:42:57 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: IPMS Nats - Again! 2: Re: plastic vs wood at IPMS 3: IPMS 4: Re: IPMS and other judges 5: Re: IPMS USA 6: Adapt or be left behind 7: LSSC INFO 8: Model Contest or just Model Expo? 9: Judging Ship Models 10: a Navy Narration 11: Re: getting kids involved 12: NRG "rules" (?) 13: Correct definitions 14: Re: Japanese Gunboat plans 15: Re: IPMS 16: Contests and Judging -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: New Website for the P.T. Dockyard 2: Book for sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Steve Cowardin Subject: IPMS Nats - Again! Yikes! Thinking this would be fun, I went to the nationals and took my first time ever diorama entry. We would talk and learn about ships and how to build better models. And such beautifully built and painted ships!. There were vendors galore and even a Mig 21 cockpit that my wife thought was a hoot to sit in and have her picture taken. The Awards Ceremony was a stitch. I had read the contest rules before entering but long before completing my diorama, but that's OK, I just do the best job I can and hope to learn and improve like the "big boys". Most of all, it's just a hobby, nobody is going to be shot if my Future floor wax has a reaction with my super glue, the poor will still be poor if my work is perfect, the rich will still be rich if it is lousy, and vice versa. I must admit that, when I saw the Constitution, thinking, "I can't match that, I hate working with wood! How do you do that in plastic?" But that was all that I thought about it. Obviously some guys take that hardened goo on sprue and turn it into real art. What fun they must have! Well imagine my surprise, waiting breathlessly to read the comments on SMML about the wonders I saw. Oh naive, little modeler that I am. I was not prepared for all that I have been reading. What happened to the fun, the sharing, and learning. I'm afraid that I have gotten myself into a "rules" hobby where building for a contest will be like trying to take an armed claymore apart - just one slip of the brush and the purists will rip into me and my little boat. Lighten up, Guys. Unless all this is just some inside joke that we new guys don't know about, it will just get you a stay in the cardiac care unit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: GKingzett@aol.com Subject: Re: plastic vs wood at IPMS It is my opinion that the solution to this problem is education. The judges need to know what they are looking at. If I were to try to judge aircraft or armor, I could apply only the simplest standards of fit and finish, because I don't know enough to make value judgements between accuracy and craftsmanship, or between effort and complexity. The same value judgements need to be made with ships. I am hoping to start a discussion of this tonight at our IPMS meeting. There is a tremendous amount of information available about ships and ship modeling. I am going to have some of it with me. Perhaps we can start to learn what is important in ship modeling, so our judgements and judging can have a sound basis. I disagree that IPMS has never had a world class Ship model. Loren Perry entered Vogelgesang a number of years ago, which won several awards at prestigious European competions. That was probably the best model in the world that year. A beautiful 1:700 Tarawa won in 1999 in Orlando. In my opinion that model would have held its own in any competion, anywhere. I didn't see the Texas which won the previous year, but comments I have heard indicate it was world class also. I(P)MS can and should welcome all models. And IPMS modelers don't need to apologize to anyone for their level of skill. But we need a better understanding of what the skills and standards are. Competition should be between models, not between hobbies. Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "John Rule" Subject: IPMS There have been suggestions that the 'P' should be dropped from IPMS in light of the lack of a plastic requirement. After every US Nationals I feel that the name should be changed to PMS because SMML quickly degenerates into a slanging match about the judging that would rival any group of hormonally imbalanced females at their annual convention. Even if I was a great modeller, I would be unlikely to exhibit at any exhibition competitively as I do not believe there can be such a thing as fair and impartial judging, any more than there can in any event which requires a subjective response. Most judges are likely to know less about a really good model and whether it is historically accurate, than the modeller himself. Let's try not to extend the debate into September again this year. Happy modelling, John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Rick Biesik" Subject: Re: IPMS and other judges To offer a counterpoint as to one members statement of why build a model to impress or to be judged by anyone. I agree that you should really build for yourself, after all it is a hobby and you should enjoy it. But the displaying your work for others to enjoy and to learn from and the hopefully "healthy" competition is also a side benefit of the hobby. Since I was a boy (30 some years ago) I was always fascinated with the Bismarck, about 15+ years ago I built the 350th Tamiya kit and I worked on it about two years(a lot of scratch building) with my wife's (at the time) support. This wa my first serious model since I was a kid (a year earlier I had built the revell kit and entered in a mall show for the heck of it) Anyway I entered a IPMS show with the Tamiya and proceeded to win 1st in ship, best ship and Judge choice over all, I looked over at my wife and she was in tears. She actually bought champagne to celebrate later, I will never forget that day. At a later show I met Jim Jones (excuse me if his name is wrong) with his incredible Shinano (I was in the masters category since I had won that previous show a year earlier and he was in the regular competition, which he swept clean) and we exchanged tips and I was overwhelmed that a master craftsman such as he was interested in my ship, we were going to go out after the show that evening with hm and his friend but everything was closed since it was a Sunday (This was before Jim's Shinano was in the magazines and obviously before his untimely death), since then I have entered one contest with a 700th Japanese destroyer and won 3rd. But you know what, I am happy, I may never match that one event but to see others work and (some day when I get a chance to build) display my own is a thrill which I wish on everyone. There is a point there that some people do seem to build just for competition and if that's "what floats their boat" that's fine and it's not a problem. I just wanted to get the point across that there is nothing wrong with competing as long as it is fair. Rick Biesik ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: IPMS USA I think most are missing my point. I am not against using any material in a model, I use them all, and in fact many years ago I was pushing modern materials onto the ship modeling society when they didn't want to hear it. But back then the IPMS was a special nitch that modeled in plastic. There were some absolutely fantastic models, but they were mostly plastic. I remember a modeler who took a plastic kit of a sailing ship, cut it off below the wales, and built all the framing a la a dockyard model, and painted it is wood like tones. Many would swear it was a wooden dockyard model but it wasn't, it was all Plastic. That is the kind of ingenuity that is now missing from IPMS. And don't forget, even under the old rules some PE and all resin was allowable. I now step off the soap box, never to return. THE END. Cheers, Bob Santos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Adapt or be left behind >> I am a long time member of I"P"MS USA, and I am also a professional model maker who uses every material I can find, however, I long for the days when IPMS required that modeled (including figures) be mostly plastic. It took a lot of ingenuity to make an outstanding plastic model without resorting to other materials and that's what made it so great and so much fun. << No offense intended Bob, but I'm sure there still some folks who long for the days of all wood models. How dare us young upstarts start building models from plastic! :-)) That's not a slap at you or anyone else. It's just that as the modeling world around us changes, we must change with it or go by the way of the buggy whip manufacturers. Ten years ago no one ever heard of photo etching, acrylic model paint, computers, the Internet, multi media kits and the list goes on and on. As painful as it may seem change is a good thing IMHO. I went almost nuts learning to use one of those new fangled computer CAD programs because I was taught to draw on the board using a pencil. I drew my first detail sets using a Rapidograph pen on Mylar with a parallel bar. It was terribly time consuming and difficult to do, but at the time it was the ONLY way to make master drawings. I now do everything on the computer. It's accuracy is absolutely incredible while line widths can be drawn consistently using a plotter. The end product is 100 times superior to the early sets I drew with human hands. How many people on this list would prefer I return to the days of far less accurate and less quality master drawings? I doubt I would stay in business very long as my competitors now all use the computer to generate master drawings. Incidentally, Flagship Models (me) was the FIRST ship photo etcher in the world to use CAD to generate master drawings. As I said, change is a good thing and like it or not we must adapt or be left behind. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. Purchase online with your Visa/Amex/Discover/MasterCard http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: LSSC INFO Hi Ray: In response to your inquiry about LSSCs: Norman Friedman's "U.S. Small Combatants--An Illustrated Design History," published by Naval Institute Press, contains many LSSC references and photos in black and white. He shows a 3/4 aerial portrait off the port bow with a boat spinning on its axis during testing and a port profile underway in Vietnam, fully armed, full specs and a good history of the craft. LSSCs could be armed with an M-60 MG, two .50 caliber MGs and grenade launchers (MK-18, 19 or 20) along with embarked personnel's small arms. There would be a great deal of detailing possibilities inboard as the aerial shot appearing in Friedman's book suggests. You might want to contact the U.S. Naval Historical center for possible photos. They don't show an awful lot of images from the Vietnam era on their website, though, but that's devoted primarily to WWII and earlier subjects for now. Who knows, they may place more images from the Brown Water Navy in due time... The LSSCs were 23'-6" in length, 9'-5" in beam, drew 2'-5" of water with a displacement of 11,938 lbs and were powered by two Ford 300 HP gasoline engines, carrying 210 gallons of 93 octane fuel for a 132 nautical mile endurance. They did 35 knots. I also have a project in mind for this model and will be using Tamiya's LRRP figures to place in the replica. BTW, on another, but similar, patrol boat subject; I'd like to do a full photo feature and plan set (we even have the drawings of the later cockpit window mods) in Model Ship Journal for the 32' PBRs. If any SMMLIE can provide good PBR photos, I will give you full credit in the article and return your originals after scanning the images. Contact me offlist for contributor's info. Victor Baca Model Ship Journal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Rui Francisco Matos" Subject: Model Contest or just Model Expo? Hi to all SMML'ies!! Things like the "USS Constitution Incident" happens because there's a Contest. If there's a Contest, there are Judges, and Judges are human, so, able of making mistakes! My point is, as Michael Donegan so well mentioned, that the great part of this Model Gatherings is seeing other members/friends models, meet old friends, knowing people with the same interests as you, share some info or techniques, and so on.... If something like the above mentioned incident happens, there's a "cloud over the heads" of the participants and there goes the Fair Play!!! I usually enter one contest and an expo per year [in February - Modeltroia and in May - Associação de Modelismo de Almada's Expo). Although they are organized by different people, things go in a parallel way... Let me explain: In the AMA's Expo (our Modelling Association that I helped to "born" and am Vice-president ... for the moment!!!) every kind of model can enter: Scratch (wood, plastic, paper, etc), the "regulars" (plastic, resin, wood, metal) being our main concern to put the models divided by Area/Subject/Scale and identified (what is it, by who, with what and a brief historical description of the real thing) as long as it represents in small (?) scale one thing that exists or use to exist (with the exception of Sci-Fi!!!). Everything goes smooth... lots of laughs, jokes (they always joke with me and my Midget Subs since our first Expo - A midget Sub is a Sub for Midgets? an old lady asked me...), experiences are swapped, the usual... It's a three all day expo that attracts +2500 persons (modellers and non-modellers) to see our humble models... On the contest, although I know most of the persons on the Organization and other Modelling Clubs (I have very good friends there!!) there's always that competition cloud.... We look at each others models not to see how beautiful they are, but to try to detect any flaws that will give us the gold!!! There's also the "I know and won't tell you how I did it" feeling... To illustrate this, on this year Modeltroia, there was a very good Indian Diorama (Sioux, I think) sitting on a stone near a river... the river was made of resin and was 4 cm high with the waves and bubbles.... masterly done!! On my approach I asked the fellow how he did the water?? I needed to do a similar thing for my 1/35 Waterline Midget Subs (A big smile on my face and open wide eyes and hears!!!) He looked me in the eye, and said: "It's resin, clear resin.... it's a very hard process, you wouldn't understand!!" and left... This was one bad thing about the contest. As a bottom line I should say: If you don't want to be annoyed by "not so friendly" persons, (Judges or Fellow modellers, doesn't matter...) don't enter a competition. I'm not saying to not to show your models, but the attitude is different in Model Expo's and in Model Contests. Unless you need the "Gold", as a recognition on how a good modeller you are!!!!!!! When you think that you know all and there's nothing that you can learn from others, then you start to loose (this is applicable to every areas - not just modelling!!!). Showing your works is very good (you don't want to be the "best modeller of the building" !!!) it's the fastest and easiest way I know to learn some good tricks and techniques!! Hope that you didn't fall asleep!! Rui Matos (aka Skipper) from Almada, Portugal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Victor M. Baca" Subject: Judging Ship Models Ship model contests; nice to see all the neat ships, but who cares about whatever ribbons and doo-dads they receive. I once got beat out for "first place" in the early 80s down in Long Beach by a head judge's 12 year old grandson. He built a sloppy go-fast gas boat. The thing was unpainted, with stick-on decals and still gas stained from it's last outing. It ran against my detailed, scratchbuilt USCG lifeboat Intrepid in the Scale R/C catagory. One of the other judges said the ribbon was given to stroke a grandpa's ego. In contrast to Mike's experience as a young artist, this time the tables were turned. It was my first show and I had finally advanced in the craft to build something worth showing in public. Later, my USCG model picked up a couple of first places, but what does it all really mean? Not much, just that someone liked my work at one point in time and the plaque is gathering dust. The best judging I ever received was the time I was visiting the Coast Guard Museum in Seattle and a fellow stopped to look at that same model of the Intrepid, now retired and on display. I had just cringed at the model's little flaws, encased in acrylic forever and wondered how he might pan my effort. The old man swallowed hard, eyes big as saucers and full of salt water. He choked out words to his wife, "Look honey, this was my home! Remember when I was stationed in Coos Bay? That's my boat and it's all there, just like she was back then." His tears and struggle to get the words out are worth more to me than any judge's comments. Heck, I hardly remember any judge's comments, but that fellow's words I'll never forget. Build for fine craftmanship and the guys who may have called the ship "home." The other stuff ain't all that important in the scheme of things. Victor Baca Model Ship Journal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Shirley Sachsen Subject: a Navy Narration there's a typo in the URL, you can find it at: http://icdweb.cc.purdue.edu/~fishertr/tomnav.htm and it is an excellent read. the photos are from a variety of sources. the FLOLS (Fresnel Lens Optical Landing System) was taken aboard Hornet recently. the lens system was reinstalled a couple of years ago by museum crew. that's the museum's FJ-2 Fury in the background. I don't remember for certain whether this was Hornet's original lens or one obtained from Oriskany. for more detail bits, go to: http://www.uss-hornet.org/explore_ship/index.html this is a 'photo tour' of Hornet that I did for the website about two years ago. all of the pictures are approx. that vintage. s ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: arthur w rohloff Subject: Re: getting kids involved I certainly don't want to put anybody off by my comments, but it seems to me that the recent thread over how to get kids back into modelling serves as a great juxtaposition to the current debate over the debating at the Nationals (which I unfortunately did not go to). C'mon guys and gals, the point of building models, of whatever shape and form (or material) should be fun, first, foremost, and always. As Mike Donegan said in the last posting, if you're building models for someone else to judge or admire, you're missing the point. I started building models again after a 20 year absence this past January, and in the past 7 months have built some 20+ 1/350 and 1/700 WW II ships, with another 20+ kits waiting for me. I'm proud of my building skills, but I wouldn't put any of my models up against any I've seen on the various sites. I've built them for only one reason--pure enjoyment, because a 41 year old guy can feel like an excited 9 year old once again. I respect and admire the beautiful models that all of you build, and I appreciate the expert advice I have received, but again, c'mon guys and gals--fun first!!! Art Rohloff Winfield, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: NRG "rules" (?) Jeff Herne writes: >> The NRG has always been very strict about its rules and regs for their contests, and there has always been an underlying debate about the use of plastics, but it's more along the lines of the long-term effects and molecular breakdowns of the materials. If an NRG member could update us on this, it would make for some interesting reading. I know this debate was quite heated when our club hosted the NRG Nationals in 1997 (8?) in Morristown, NJ. << Well, actually, Jeff, that's a common misconception. Unlike IPMS, the Nautical Research Guild does not make rules or regulations nor does it have a book of same. The NRG has an annual conference in which competition plays no part. Seminars, model displays, vendors selling their wares, yes, but no competition and no rules. The rules are made by the various institutions which DO have competitions, such as the Mariners' Museum once-every-five-years ship model competition. The Mariners' Museum wrote their own rules, using NRG members as judges, advisors, consultants, among others, including the U.S. Navy. At the Mariners' year 2000 compeition there were three judges: all NRG members, to be sure, but they were not there as NRG representatives. One was the very well known Rob Napier (ship model builder, restorer, author, nautical consultant, sailor, etc.); another was Joe McCleary (retired Navy Captain, ship model builder, museum volunteer, author, gentleman,), and Dana Wegner, Curator of Ship Models for the U.S. Navy. Quite a few models on display at the Mariners' had plastic in them, my own included. Harry O'Hanian received a silver medal, if I recall correctly, for a 1/700 plastic model of YAMATO which was rigged using silk from a silkworm. It was stunning. I'm not certain if Harry raised and trained the worm himself, or just unraveled its cocoon. (grin) Another well-known personage in the ship modeling community, Don Preul, builds in resin, fiberglass, and styrene. He is also the Secretary of the NRG. I don't see a dichotomy here: some NRG members love styrene, some don't. Some IPMS members like ships, some like planes, and some even like cars. Some write books on FLETCHER & SUMNER/GEARING class destroyers. (chuckle). On the NRG's Web site (http://www.naut-res-guild.org) you'll find a number of essays on ship model building, including Dana Wegner's assessment of using styrene. The Navy doesn't like it, having concerns about its long term stability (over decades). I have plastic model airplanes which are 40 years old which show no sign of deterioration (other than that provided by the youthful builder), but the Navy thinks in terms of hundreds of years. I'd guess the bottom line here is.....you'll find people within any given organization at one extreme and at the other, and you can't really label any organization based on what its individual members do. Dang, at one time I was convinced all IPMS'ers built Star Trek spaceships and monster figures only. Just shows how wrong I was. Just a theory, mind. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Nautical Research Guild (recently become a Director) IPMS/USA #3345 (just a long-term member who fiddles with styrene, brass, nickel, stainless steel, acrylic, Britannia pewter, aluminum, copper, wood, and, of course, Newcastle Brown Ale.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Einar Kr Holtet" Subject: Correct definitions Hi, Three expressions: Resin, photo-etch, white-ensign? What are the correct definitions of those three expressions? Einar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "fredliedel" Subject: Re: Japanese Gunboat plans This might be late as the thread was a week or more ago. Anyway a fairly good sauce for plan of all Japanese is the ships the book Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy 1863-1945. By Hansgeorg Jentschura, Dieter Jung & Peter Mickel ISBN No 0 85368 151 1 By Arms and Armour Press It is now longer published but i got mine in a second hand book store. Covers all classes of ships in the Japanese navy during that time. While the plans are not the most detail, I am sure they will help with what you are doing.. If you run into a dead end e-mail me and i will help you out with what i have got. Fred Liedel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Ted0330@aol.com Subject: Re: IPMS I strongly agree with the remarks of Michael Donegan about IPMS. I've never been, and I would only go to see, not judge, the work of others. For me, this is a hobby. This isn't about competing with anyone, let alone demonstrating or claiming superiority over others. While the name IPMS seems to require plastic as the medium, why not welcome other types of models and learn and admire. I think it's sad people convert pleasure into competition. I'm a physician- if you want to 'compete' let's at least do it over things that are important, like life, death, and the quality of people's lives. Ted Tsaltas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Contests and Judging I have to say, I am not a big fan of model contests, as I build for enjoyment, not competition (when I have a chance to build at all ). I have been a judge at contests, and my hat is off to Rusty for taking on what is essentially a thankless job. In my 20 odd years of modeling as an adult, I've yet to attend a contest where there is no grumbling about the judging, and frankly, I have grown really, really tired of it, to the point where I avoid contests now. I fancy myself a fair builder of ships, but don't need to seek out unnecessary BS in my life right now. Far better for me are non competitive venues, such as the SMMLcon's held around the world (!), or fun runs in the R/C ship community. A great day hanging out with fellow modelers, no stress, and no nonsense. Static car modelers have done this for decades, and that hobby has thrived. I understand the drive for folks to measure their work against others, and if that adds to the enjoyment of your hobby, who am I to try and dissuade you. On the other hand, if your blood pressure rises on Judgment Day, you might reevaluate if competitive model building is your best course. Cordially, Kurt SeaPhoto Maritime Photography www.warshipphotos.com Order via our online catalog...now taking credit cards via Paypal Warship Models Underway www.warshipmodelsunderway.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: David Gregory Subject: New Website for the P.T. Dockyard The P.T. Dockyard has a new home on the web: http://ptdockyard.tripod.com This site has many more pictures of the 1/600 coastals and many more links than the old one! The new boats mentioned on it are coming. Only one is listed, but all should be ready in a few weeks. Dave G ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: David Gregory Subject: Book for sale Warships in Miniature: A Guide to Naval Waterline Shipmodelling in 1/1200 Scale by Michael Ainsworth Brand new. Asking $20 plus reasonable postage ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume