Subject: SMML VOL 1896 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:49:47 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Monitors-Stability 2: Re: S.S. Portland 3: Re: History Channel 4: History/Discovery Channel 5: Re: Monitor/submarines 6: Re: UDT team set 7: Monitors 8: Battleships and fire support 9: ICM 10: Re: Mirage Ocean kits 11: History Channel 12: Re: Far Eastern Cruiser 13: Re: Far Eastern Lion and cruiser 14: Mirage Ocean ship kits 15: Re: History Channel 16: Re: Bismarck and Prinz Eugen Paint Schemes 17: Re: Bismarck and Prinz Eugen Schemes during Rhienubung 18: S.S. Portland 19: Nichimo Yamato 1/200 20: HMS Maori - 1942 21: HMS Berwick - Dec 40 22: Re: Nelson 23: Help! Instruction Sheet Needed 24: Queen Elizabeth class kits 25: Re: Monitors ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1: IPMS(UK) Small Warships SIG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: 1:700 SIMS Kits Now Available ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: aandmblevins@att.net Subject: Re: Monitors-Stability If you look at the monitors employed by the British in WW I and WW II you will note that they had little freeboard and most of the hull was underwater. They were wide for their length and, I would think, very stable gun platforms. A large portion of the machinery/storage of a 16 inch turret is well under the main deck level and i would think that would add to the stability of the vessel. As for fire control, there is no longer any requirement for the high towers associated with the older vessels, with the new sophisticated target acquisition systems. Al Blevins ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John_Sheridan@putnam.com Subject: Re: S.S. Portland >> Peter Jennings informed us that the Portland went down in a hurricane, not a gale, Thanksgiving Day (hurricane in late November?) of 1898. << A "Gale" in New England is what we locals around here call a "Nor'easter". A Nor'easter is basically a large storm that builds right off the coast and can be as powerful as a hurricane; or worse. The name comes from the fact that when the winds arounds here come from the east, or northeast (off the ocean) it is time for bad weather. The "perfect storm" was a classic Nor'easter. >> "A local TV news reporter (in Boston) identified the ship as a paddle-wheel side steamer (whatever that is)." << There used to be lots of those ships plying the coastal waters in New England around the turn of the century. Most of them met with a fate simular to Portland. Take a look for yourself at: http://www.marinemuseum.org/ >> Sheesh, I wish you SMML guys would smarten up and get things right, the way those highly paid TV people do. << That's what happens when you have transplanted Canadians talking about New England Weather! (tongue firmly planted in cheek) John Sheridan www.steelnavy.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: MIKE.LEONARD@customs.treas.gov Subject: Re: History Channel Franklyn wrote - >> If Will Rogers' comment is true ("All I know is what I read in the newspapers."), then we are indeed in BIG trouble. << Not to worry. The updated version of this is "I saw it on the Internet, so it has to be true!" MWL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: History/Discovery Channel Since my other hobby is Ancient Egypt I have to say that the vast majority of Discovery/History Channel programs about history of this country are as mixed a bag as are their military history programs. However IMO Franklyn Brown hit the nail right on the head when he wrote that (unfortunatelly) those programs aren't ment to be ballanced and scholarly view on history but are rather a representations of a certain opinions, be it by producers or their scientific advisers (whoever it might be). Sad fact is that revamped or sensationalised view of history seems to be much more popular than the standart and ballanced approach. Books about hidden Nazi gold, Atlantis and Lost Civilisations sell many more copies than traditional history books. So the fact that both channels are subscription based means (sadly again) that they are bound to be much more intersted in growing numbers of viewers rather than in accuracy or ballance of their programs. Regards D.P ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Monitor/submarines To NAVYDAZE I do not have much data on the W W 1 British M class submarines, but I believe they could be considered as terror or stealth type of weapon, and were not expected to engage in protracted surface combat, and thus did not require extensive ammunition storage or handling equipment. Can you imagine being "alone" at sea, no other vessel in sight (even on radar) and suddenly you find 12" (I believe, not quite sure) shells being lobbed at you from some small dot, that you can't even see, on the sea ? Same for shore installations. By the time you recover and get organized, the "dot" is gone. Think of the panic and the frantic "counter-measure security" procedures that would ensue. If you can't imagine a scenario, just look at post -September 11 America, especially our airports and other sensitive infrastructures. Although I am confident that SMML will be able to refer you to more in-depth information on these (both French and British) submersible behemoth pieces of naval artillery, I will be glad to send you copies of whatever meager data I have. Just send me your Postal Address to me, off list. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: UDT team set >> I'm looking for an Italeri 1/35 Frogmen and boat kit, whcih contains divers and zodiac inflatable boat and outboard. Does anyone happen to have one around that they would be willing to part with? << Matt, I have an old one but the frogmen are gone, I suppose that's what you need but if not you can have the rest of the kit. I also saw the entire kit on Ebay yesterday under shipmodels. Bob Santos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Monitors Mike wrote: >> Ah, Jim about your little monitors. You do know how many decks are involved in a 16 inch gun, including lifts, ready storage and magazines, not counting fire control? I think perhaps you monitor would be higher than it is longer. Might have some stability problems!! << When the British was able to build monitors with 15" or 18" guns in W.W.1, Why should the Americans be unable to build monitors with 16" guns? (I am sure, that the British would have liked to have one of there W.W.1 monitors at the Falklands) At the Guadalcanal fighting it was shown, that 8" guns is to small fore shore bombardment. Only when the 14" guns moved in, destruction became serious. Battleships has a value today because of there staying power. At Layte a destroyer score 50 hit at Kongo with 5" guns without any effect. What effect will an Excorset missile have on an Iowa class today? - non (or it might need some paint). There are no modern weapons today build for penetrating 12" of armor. That the 16" guns have a safety range bigger than the Field artillery 2m+ ,5", like Andrew Jones tells in vol. 1891 is naturally, when they make a hole in the ground of up to 30 m. diameter. Erik Erhardtsen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Subject: Battleships and fire support The battleships, especially the Iowas, were the pinnacle of their breed, big, fast, powerful - but that was over half a century ago. Their size and expense have ruled them off the oceans of the world, not once but three times: 1957, 1969 and 1993, no matter how bad the need for fire support might perceived to be. But how necessary is direct fire support? Amphibious fire support from the sea assumes an assault on a defended beach. Valid in WWII but no longer so. The days of the Marines storming ashore in the face of enemy fire have long past. The entire essence of amphibious assault since the introduction of the 20 knot amphibious force, LPH/helicopter and the LCAC has been the exploitation of mobility provided by technology over the need to force a landing in the teeth of an established defence. Before the helicopter and LCAC the probable sites of amphibious assaults could be predicted and defences duly organized. The mobility provided by the 20 know force, helicopters and LCACs means that possible landing sites world-wide have expanded exponentially. Future amphibious assaults will take place against desserted beaches, up estuaries or over tidal flats - where ever the enemy is not. The organization of the Marine Corps has recognized this with the replacement of the M-109 self propelled howitzer with towed pieces, the integration of the AV-8B Harrier, the introduction LAV family and other steps all calculated to "lighten-up" the Corps. Alas, technology has overtaken the battleships. Too bad, they were maginficent ships but they belong to the past. Rick Lundin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: andy vu Subject: ICM Does anyone know when the ICM models of the Hood and Takao available? Has anyone assembled the Trumpeter's Cheng Ho Treasure ship model? Cheers! Andy Vu Hi andy, The rumour that's been doing the rounds of the distributors down here for the past 6 months is that Trumpeter have picked up the Hood moulds & will release it sometime in the future. Regards, Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Re: Mirage Ocean kits Hi Art and Phil, I don't confirm if "MIrage Ocean" can sell their kits to overseas or not, but firstly I recommend to visit their site and ask them. Their URL is http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Toys/6615/mo.html Their site doesn't show mail address on their top page, but you can find it in each kit page. Please click button "SHIP MODELS" of top page, and then click kit list, although your computer would indicate only garbled Japanese. You will find the button "mail". (If unfortunately they aren't interested in selling their kit to overseas customer, then drop me off-line.) Best regards, Mitsuaki Kubota http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/hmdock/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: 1250man@attbi.com Subject: History Channel >> One of the most glaring ommissions that I saw was in a 'Battle of Britian' documentary. It tells haw the RAF was saved because the German's shifted from military to civilian targets, evil Germans. They left out that the British targeted civilian areas on a regular basis and that the Germans were retaliating. << I agree that there are a lot of inaccuracies in TV documentaries. But the question here is this: If the program simply stated that the RAF was saved as a result of the switch in targeting, then that standing alone is a fact. The reasons for it may be interesting, but are not germaine if the emphasis is upon WHAT saved the RAF. So what if the British were targeting civilians? The FACT remains the same. By backing off military targets, the RAF got a reprieve. If, however, the program stated or inferred that the Germans, but not the British, targeted civilians, that would be an ommission. The above quote does not indicate that however. It's important that one focus on the specific content, rather than on what peripheral issues are raised. Paul Jacobs ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Michael London" Subject: Re: Far Eastern Cruiser >> I know that a Chinese company produced a plastic 1/300th scale kit of the ex-RN Arethusa class cruiser transferred to the Chinese after WW2. Again, does anyone know the name of the kit, the name of the company and how to get hold of one? << While I cannot advise on a kit the ex ARETHUSA Class cruiser AURORA was renamed CHUNK KING when acquired by Nationalist China in 1948. In March 1949 she defected to the Communists and renamed HUANG HO. After severe damage by bombing at Taku she was salved, repaired, and renamed PEI CHING (?) in 1951. Laid up in 1954 and scrapped in 1960's. You could look for a kit under any of these names but my bet would be HUANG HO. Michael London ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "graham and melanie" Subject: Re: Far Eastern Lion and cruiser the cruiser kit is by LEE, I got mine off EBAY for a few $s, never seen them advertised in Euroupe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Melvin Burmaster" Subject: Mirage Ocean ship kits 1. Yes, there is a Lion (II) 2. Made by a "cottage indusry" or "garage kit" maker in Japan. 3. Not available directly; you have to have someone buying in Japan. 4. The best contact is CW Lam, who was directed to me by Mike Bartel. Lam's address is cwlam_99@yahoo.com 5. Don't hold your breath on production, he does only very limited runs. (The modeller) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Richard Rathgeber Subject: Re: History Channel Dear Franklyn; As somewhat of a history buff myself what in your view are ther true facts concerning the bombing campaign? Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: Re: Bismarck and Prinz Eugen Paint Schemes >> She also has thin light coloured lines painted onto her main deck here and there...never noticed those before. << Mullenheim-Rechberg (senior ranking survivor of the Bismarck) mentions in his book about Rheinübung that white lines were painted along the deck after the removal of the railing to prevent the crew coming to near the edge of the deck at night and going overboard. I believe the lines were about two meters from the deck's edge. Off-course this was on the Bismarck but the same would apply for the Prinz Eugen if this was normal procedure. Wienne ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject Re: Bismarck and Prinz Eugen Schemes during Rhienubung >> Glad you asked! I am now working on that very subject. There are some very good Web sites on both ships. I have done about 8 months research on this very subject.For the Bismarck, the research seems to lead to the hull painted in hellgrau, with camo painted out, but still showing thru the quick coat of hellgrau over it. The stern false wave painted out,the bow false wave retained. The dunkelgrau on both stern and bow painted out with hellgrau. The Superstructure camo painted out with the mittelgrau of the superstructure. The turrets painted with dunkelgrau tops. The emblems on both bow and stern painted out with dunkelgrau. There is much debate as to what color the tops of the turrets were during the operation. Some state maybe even yellow or red. However, no hard evidence or documentation has proven any other color other than the dunkelgrau. The secondary turrets, ei 5 inch, still show the dunkel grau on the wreck. Now for the Prinz Eugen, the hull painted out with the hellgrau. The superstructure painted over with mittelgrau. Turrets painted over with mittelgrau including tops. No bow or stern waves showing. Dunkelgrau sections on both stern and bow painted over. Emblems on bow and stern deck painted over with dunkelgrau. Hope that answers your questions. There is much misinformation out there. My advice is to recheck and confirm information.If you find only one source or line drawing showing something different cross check it with another source. Don't just take Veterans words on things, remember this took place over 60 years ago, memories fade. << Sorry Dan, but I believe your last paragraph says it all. Misinformation. I am in the process of finishing up my book on the Prinz Eugen and have a very strong difference of opinion on the paint colors you have listed here. First off, Hellgrau is lighter that Mittelgrau, therefore, the hulls would not have been painted Hellgrau, but more likely Dunkelgrau, and more than likely the older Dunkelgrau 51. On Kriegsmarine vessels, the hull was always (almost?) painted darker. For both the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen, the base colors were; Hull - Dunkelgrau 51 (RAL 7000). Dunkelgrau is Dark Gray in German. Everything from the main deck up was painted Hellgrau 50 (RAL 7001). Hellgrau is Light Gray in German. Steel decks were painted with Dunkelgrau 2. Wooden decks and wood grating covered decks were made of teak and were not painted. Additional accent patterns on the camouflage were; The false bow and stern were painted with Dunkelgrau 2 (RAL 7024). The false bow and stern waves were painted with White. The large stripes painted across the hull and superstructure were painted with Black and White. The other camouflage accents, such as those on the main turrets of the Prinz Eugen were painted with Dunkelgrau 2. Main turret top recognition colors were as follows; Baltic operations used Deckfarbe Rot (RAL 3011) in various ways. I have noticed that during the early years of the Second World War, this color was applied on the turret roof and the sloped sides. Later, about 1941, this changed to just painting the turret roof only. Of course there were exceptions! Rot is Red in German. Atlantic operations used Deckfarbe Gelb 13 (RAL 1003) in the same manner as with the Baltic Red. Gelb is yellow in German. Main deck Luftwaffe recognition markings were a large White circle with a Black swastika at 45° to the centerline of the ship, on a band of Red the width of the White circle, running the entire beam of the vessel, port to starboard. Both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen had these on the bow and the stern decks. Note: The use of the early base color paints was continued thru the war, but were mostly changed to the use of the later Dunkelgrau (RAL 7037), Mittelgrau (RAL mix of 7001 & 7036) and Hellgrau (RAL 7038) for the larger warships. The question still remains, "What were the colors of the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen turret tops?" as no definitive proof has been located, YET! My belief is that the Prinz Eugen sailed from Gotenhafen, Poland with the turret roofs only painted Deckfare Rot (Red). Upon reaching Norway, all the camouflage accents were painted out with the two base colors, Dunkelgrau 51 on the hull and Hellgrau 50 on everything from the main deck up. The bow and stern deck recognition markings were painted over with Dunkelgrau 2. Now this is again where my own speculation comes in. I believe the turret roofs only were painted with Deckfarbe Gelb 13. When approaching France at the end of the Operation Rheinübung, I also believe that the Prinz Eugen repainted the bow and stern deck recognition markings back on. For Bismarck, I believe that upon leaving Gotenhafen, Bismarck had the hull in Dunkelgrau 51, everything above the main deck in Hellgrau 50, with false bow and stern patterns in Dunkelgrau 2, false bow and stern waves in White, the Baltic Black and White stripes on the hull and superstructure, the recognition markings of the bow and stern decks, and the turret tops, roof and slopes, painted with either Deckfarbe Rot, or Dunkelgrau 2. Also, only on Bismarck, the funnel cap was painted Aluminumbronz 16 (RAL 9006). Upon reaching Norway, all the accents were painted out with the base colors, with the exception of the false bow wave. The bow and stern deck recognition markings were also painted over with Dunkelgrau 2. My belief is that the turret roofs only were painted with Deckfarbe Gelb 13, but from looking at black and white photos, the slopes may have been painted with this color as well. The secondary 5.9in turrets were possibly painted this way also. After the most recent dives to the Bismarck by the David Marnes and James Cameron expeditions, still no conclusive proof has been revealed, but after viewing some of the footage taken, I did see the remnants of the black and white stripes on the bridge structure, so this tells me that the painting in Norway may not have cured, thereby washing/wearing off? Proof of this effect is visible in the photos of Prinz Eugen arriving at Brest, France, just after the operation. So the question is, "Could the yellow paint on the turrets have washed/worn off?" Hope this does not add too much more confusion to the issue. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: DHL Subject: S.S. Portland Check this out: http://www.bluejacketinc.com/kits/portland.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Aragiannis Evangelos" Subject: Nichimo Yamato 1/200 Hi everyone, if you happen to make a search on Yamato in HLJ's website you will come up with two Nichimo 1/200 results. One is significantly more expensive than the other and it is named among other things "super". I tried to contact HLJ but I got no answer. Does anyone know the differences between the two versions? It is not motorization. Also, it is labeled "NEW". So,.. thanks people, Evangelos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: HMS Maori - 1942 Hi all, I am attempting to establish the Maori's final configuration at the time of her sinking at Malta. I can find no direct references or photographs. From publications I infer that she may have had her X turret replaced by twin 4in, and carried four single 20mm in bridge wings and on the front of the aft deckhouse whilst retaining the useless 0.5in quads abreast the searchlight. She may also have had 286 radar on the foremast, a cut down rear funnel (by how much???) and no main mast. I have no idea of her final camo. Help / comments appreciated. Many thanks John Sutherland Wellington, New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: HMS Berwick - Dec 40 Hi all, I am attempting to establish Berwick's configuration at the time of her fight with the Hipper (converting a surplus Airfix Suffolk). I have seen references that suggest by absence of statement that Berwick and Cornwall may not have lost their torpedo tubes like Suffolk and Cumberland did. Can anyone confirm this and if so where the tubes (triples? quads?) were sighted post '38 refit? Many thanks John Sutherland Wellington New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: Re: Nelson Chris, Raven and Roberts Battleships of WWII show the positions clearly. If you can't get hold of this locally come back to me and I'll see if I can figure how to scan that rather large drawing and send it to you. Shame you never made Wellington - it was no colder than Auckland while you were in country and you could have seen the plans yourself! Best regards John Sutherland Wellington New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "A Phillips" Subject: Help! Instruction Sheet Needed Hi guys & gals, This is a first time post for me, although I've been a lurker for a little time, can anybody help me out with a copy of the instruction sheet for an Airfix 1/600 Leander class frigate, I've obtained a slightly damaged but easily repaired example, but unfortunately minus its box and instruction sheet. Just as an aside I really enjoy the chat in this group and hope to be able to contribute more in the future. I live in South Wales in the UK by the way. Many thanks in advance Ant Phillips ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Kathy/Pirie Sublett" Subject: Queen Elizabeth class kits A question: While avoiding the work for which they still pay me this afternoon, I noticed that HP lists the entire Queen Elizabeth class in its WW II British series. Now we all know this class by the beginning of the war were all VERY different. Has anyone seen the HP kits? Are they accurate? Or has HP just produced five different boxes? It was a slow day. Now I'm going to check and see if the Laphroig has evaporated. Pirie Sublett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Doug Wilde Subject: Re: Monitors Bunch'a weenies. If you want some real offshore power you need the semi-globular naval battery CERBERUS. I've loaded two scans of drawings at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dbwilde/NavalScans/ Models were built and tested by the Navy. These definitely would make interesting models. Doug Wilde ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: IPMS(UK) Small Warships SIG The website (www.brown.abelgratis.co.uk) of the above group has been updated today - 30th August. Apologies for not notifying you all of the previous update but I had a gremlin in my computer which still seems to be there preventing group e-mails! I hope you all read SMML! Regards Les Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mike Bartel Subject: 1:700 SIMS Kits Now Available The long-awaited metal 1:700 scale SIMS kits are now in stock for immediate shipment. These substantial kits retail for $38.00 each plus shipping. Two versions are available right now: the SIMS (#70006) with parts for 1940 to 1942 fits, and WALKE (#70011) with parts for ships of the class from 1942-1943 and possibly to 1944. Alternate parts and all detail parts are included to do any version within these time periods. The SIMS class ships have never been done this way in 1:700 before. Check the IHP website for photos of the built model sample and ordering information. Quantities are limited, and you may be backordered for a short time. Mike Bartel IHP http://ihphobby.tripod.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume