Subject: SMML VOL 1962 Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 01:33:35 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Takasago 2: The Dangers of the Old References 3: Re: CERROBEND 4: The Dangers of Old References 5: Re: Ballast placement for realistic pitch and roll 6: Re: The Dangers of the Old References 7: One way to kill virusses 8: Re: Could use some information Dumous Gato SUB kit 9: Re: Ballast placement for realistic pitch and roll 10: Revell Taney - extent of steel deck on focsl? 11: bridge details - british destroyers 12: San Francisco visit 13: Re: Ballast placement for realistic pitch and roll 14: Re: "Pylons" @ Pearl Harbor 15: Takasago ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mitsuaki Kubota Subject: Re: Takasago Hi Graham, John and D.P. Thank you for talking about pre dreadnought IJN ships, and sorry for delayed response from Japan. According to some of Japanese reference sources, in 1896, IJN suspended white hull and buff upperworks scheme and adopted light grey for all external weather works of their "Type 1 Warships" (The ships good for battlefleet). The reason why white-buff colours abandoned was that the scheme is proven to be conspicuous through the experiences of Sino-Japanese War. The 1896 grey is very light compared with later IJN grey, and it would seem almost white in monochrome photo. The main composite of 1896 grey is zinc and black pigment is a few. Surely, the photo of Takasago in "World Warships in Review" shows the funnels are slightly different tones, but I think the funnel colours would be easily affected by heat of smoke. The zinc pigment of those days were insecure, so there is a slight possibility that funnel colours faded out and changed to yellowish. For battleships, black hull and light grey upperworks scheme was adopted in 1900, and black hull and funnels and light grey upperworks (except funnels) adopted for battleships and armoured cruisers in next year. This scheme was expanded for other types of ships except destroyers in 1903, but in next year IJN finally adopted dark grey. The regulation for hull line colours were changed from time to time, but the regulation of 1995-1901 is as followed. First ship of the class (Nameship or ship with no sisters): black or white Second ship of the class: red Third ship of the class: blue Fourth ship of the class: double black or white lines Fifth ship of the class: double red lines Sixth ship of the class: double blue lines I think white lines for nameship was rare in the case of light grey hull becouse the colour is not distinctive in light grey. Turn to the Takasago hull line. Although the main armaments of Takasago are two single 8" guns compared with four single 6" guns of her half-sister Yoshino, I think these two ships were regarded as one class. So my best guess for Takasago hull line is red. The sources I refereed are "The History of Japanese Warships 1 Meiji Era" from Kaijinsha and "Warship Colour" from Model Art. Hope these help. Best regards, Mitsuaki Kubota http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/hmdock/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "John Rule" Subject: The Dangers of the Old References >> If your research isn't good enough to become the definitive word on the subject and stand up to the test of time, it's not worth publishing. << Whoah!!! If the above statement were true, there would only be one book. No work is good enough to be definitive for all time. It may be definitive at the time of publication, but thereafter...........Who knows? Sincerely, John Rule ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: HGYL Subject: Re: CERROBEND The melting temperature of water is 0C or 32F. What a remarkable metal Serrobend must be if it melts at a lower temperature than water. I am sure my good friend John Rule will appreciate my pointing this out. It is actually Cerrobend and it melts at about 70C. There are several brand names of this metal of which Cerrobend is but one. I don't know where to get Cerrobend either but a good start would be a professional plumbing supply house. The stuff is used by plumbers to be poured into copper pipes to prevent them buckling when they are bent. Then a quick lick with the blow torch and it all melts out again. I have poured it straight into a plastic model to weighjt it and the plastic has suffered no ill effects. Regards to all, Harold Lincoln ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Kelvin Mok Subject: The Dangers of Old References >> If your research isn't good enough to become the definative word on the subject and stand up to the test of time, it's not worth publishing. How many books do we see that come out with high expectations, but when we see them, they are simply the same regurgitated bunch of information that has been previously published. << My other big beef is on illustrations. As far as the printer is concerned it costs the same to the an author whether he has a top class drawing or a one done by a guy with no thumbs. And the illustrations are the things of value left in a book once it had been read and found to be just another regurgitation. So why reproduce poor quality photos and drawings when a little more effort would so enhance "its a keeper" value of the book. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Peter Nolan Subject: Re: Ballast placement for realistic pitch and roll Roger, It's actually "polar moment of inertia"--moment roughly translating into "length", or "mass along the length." Pete Albuquerque, NM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: The Dangers of the Old References Dave Pluth wrote: >> I would disagree completely with this statement. If your research isn't good enough to become the definative word on the subject and stand up to the test of time, it's not worth publishing... << That simply isn't true Dave. Thinking that any research can lead to a definitive word on a subject is a folly IMO. Would you kindly like to point to me the dated but definitive source which withstood the test of time untouched??? First- research will always have some sort of time limit imposed on it which is bound to act as a restictive factor. Second- there will bound to be new sources coming into public domain uncovered by accident or design in archives, libraries and private collections alike. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: NEVENGER Subject: One way to kill virusses I was infected a few weeks back and viruses with other evil programs (I hate gator) can be a real pain. On the other hand I use one last ditch effort that so far seems to work. I use windows 98, but do not know how this works on other operating systems. You start/cause the computer to boot to the command prompt. When you are there you can use the command SCANREG/RESTORE. When you do this you will get a list of the successfully boot and launched startups of your system from the last 10 days. You can pick one of them to thus restore your registry to. Thus if some evil thing has gotten into your registry, it goes bye bye. It is also a good command if your registry has been corrupted. Just remember if you have installed anything that the registry affects after the date selected you will have to reinstall it. Hope this will be of help to all of you. Rich ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Albert Choy Subject: Re: Could use some information Dumous Gato SUB kit My earlier reply was truncated .. here the full reply~ I have built both Dumas subs -- the Bluefish and the new Akula. If you are handy with your hands you should be able to build either ship. Compared, it is generally easier to build the Akula. The instructions are good - though you do need an ability to measure, cut and visualize how the parts all come together. If you can handle this, you should be able to build the ship with a degree of ease. If you follow the instructions you should have no problems with construction or the sub having leaks. Once the two ABS hull pieces are fused together (with CA, fiberglass, Bondo) and the airtight compartment has been installed (CA and silicone sealant), the resultant hull is very rigid. It does not flex. The only issues I had related to: 1. the rear dive pane assembly. The skeg is somewhat flimsy for a functioning structure. This can be fixed with glass resin filled into the skeg. 2. the rudder assembly is very non scale (a control rod & horn glaringly located outside the hull). Again, this can be fixed with bit of brass plate, tubes and solder - to place the control horn & rod in the hull. 3. the seal to the watertight compartment. The design uses vaseline squished between the lip of the hatch lid and the hatch compartment (the lid is held down by rubber bands). I improved the design with a few strips of 1/8 x 1/4 plastic strips. The redesigned hatch has never leaked even at depths of 8 feet (Dumas recommends that the sub not exceed a depth of 3-4 feet). 4. the dive panes - I replaced the soft plastic stock panes with brass (improved control). 5. the periscopes - I replaced these with telescoping brass tube/rod. 6. propellers - I replaced the plastic two bladed props with four bladed brass props. Take a look at this site. It gives a you good visual idea what construction entails: http://www.marinerc.com/submarines/bluefish/bluefish.htm Building and sailing the Bluefish is fun (it always draws attention at the lake. Albert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Ballast placement for realistic pitch and roll Roger Clemens wrote: >> I have used #6 buckshot. If you need enough weight and have enough volume to play in, try to place your ballast as forward and aft as you can. But don't seal it down just yet. I have found that small models with all of the ballast concentrated amidships tend to pitch unnaturally in small ripples. Is the correct term small 'polar inertia'? Correct me if this is incorrect. Ballast concentrated at the ends increases the inertia and causes the bow to 'plow ' into waves more realistically. But too much can be bad. Experiment before sealing it down so that you are not continually getting submerged. Most models are too small in the beam to make this practice work for rolling. << That's a clever trick, Roger, I'll have to try it. For rolling, a trick I have seen used is to place a tube half-filled with water, crossways and near the deck level. Baffles in the tube keep the water from sloshing back and forth quickly. As the model rolls, the water sloshes to the lower side, making that side heavier and causing the roll to "hesitate" before recovering. The wider the hull and the higher the placement, the better the effect. I suspect a similar effect could be attained by placing shot in a curved (vertically) raceway so it would roll from one side to the other, sliding weights or even a pendulum hung from the deck. All of these would need some form of damping to slow down the motion (the purpose of the baffles above.) Edd ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Stephen Allen" Subject: Revell Taney - extent of steel deck on focsl? One for the Coasties I think! Can anyone advise me how much of the focsl of this class of cutter was steel, that is, where the division between this and the planked deck occurred? A reference point in relation to the base of the 5"/38 turret would be most useful, or do I assume that the break in the deck supplied with the kit is where the steel deck starts? I am building the kit in its 1950s guise, so a response based on this era would be appreciated (lots of nice photos of this class on the web, but nothing I can find so far that let's me pick the focsl details). Also, some advice concerning the colour of the steel decks would be appreciated - is it post-war deck gray or wartime deck blue? Oh, and before I rush off and buy paint, does anyone know what tint of white would be most appropriate for the overall scheme? TIA Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: ED LARYEH Subject: bridge details - british destroyers About a week ago there was a question about bridge details on British WW II DD's I suggest looking at Edgar March's "British Destroyers". There should be at least one photo of the bridge of a ship of the desired period and a diagram of all details for a late war DD (I think he showed HMS CAMPERDOWN). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Henry T. Chen" Subject: San Francisco visit Hi SMMLies, I'll be in San Francisco for the fleet parade weekend on 10-12 -02... Any suggestion of any other sites (ships) worth seeing? Sorry for my ingorance, is one of the USS Iowa class battleship there as a museum ship now?? Any info is much appreciated... Hank ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "David N. Lombard" Subject: Re: Ballast placement for realistic pitch and roll >> I have used #6 buckshot. If you need enough weight and have enough volume to play in, try to place your ballast as forward and aft as you can. But don't seal it down just yet. I have found that small models with all of the ballast concentrated amidships tend to pitch unnaturally in small ripples. Is the correct term small 'polar inertia'? Correct me if this is incorrect. << You've got the concept. But "rotational inertia" or "inertia about the y-axis" are better terms. The actual measure that's significant is called the "radius of gyration", this is used to calculate the inertia. If you were to imagine a ship built of "Lego" pieces, you could actually calculate the radius of gyration, labeled "k" from: the distance (radius) of each little brick from the center of gravity, the weight of each little brick, and the total displacement of the ship. There are three radii of gyration, i.e., rolling, pitching, and yawing. The radii of gyration are also obtainable from experiments that measure the period of rolling or pitching. >> Ballast concentrated at the ends increases the inertia and causes the bow to 'plow ' into waves more realistically. But too much can be bad. Experiment before sealing it down so that you are not continually getting submerged. Most models are too small in the beam to make this practice work for rolling. << You can still make it a little better... If you've got the leeway to play with ballasting an operational model, experimenting with the weight distributions like this can make the difference between a "bobbing cork" and something closer to the actual motions of a ship. David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA N 33 deg, 48', W 118 deg, 5' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SceneN3D Subject: Re: "Pylons" @ Pearl Harbor Regarding your inquiry about the "Pylons" @ Pearl Harbor, these docking fixtures were referred to as "quays" (pronounced "keys"). Ford Island was ringed with these quays, both along the East channel (Battleship Row) as well as the West channel (Carrier Row). The quays are situated in pairs at specified points around Ford's shoreline and are designated as the "Fox" moorings at Pearl. Of the twelve "Fox" designated moorings, only ten are of the piling-supported concrete platform configuration, with mooring "Fox 1" (located at the south eastern shoreline of Ford IS.) actually being an L-shaped wharf, and "Fox 4" (commonly referred to as "Gasoline Wharf") also being a "T" configured type. All of the concrete quays possessed alphanumeric designations at the time of the attack, running in sequence from "Fox-1" through "Fox-8" along the eastern shoreline, and "Fox-9" through "Fox-12" along the western. These appear to have been painted in black on both sides of each quay's vertical surface, on the "seaward" side (toward the vessel). Check photo reference to for specifics. The Quays still exist today as they did when they secured the BB's of the Pacific fleet in Dec of '41. They are essentially cast concrete platforms supported from below the waterline by a series of wood pilings. Each quay is fitted out with several pair of bollards for mooring purposes. Today each quay has its "Fox" numeral as well as the individual vessel's name that was moored at the location on 12/07/41 prominently displayed on the seaward face of the quay. I sincerely hope this is of use in your project. Bob Bracci, PHHA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Takasago Darius, John I followed your discussion with great interest, but had no time to search through my records before this weekend. So I hope it's not too late to add my mustard ( as we Germans say): When judging the colors of hull and upperworks on the photo in the Kajinsha (Ships of the World) book, you must take in account that the sun is standing high and slightly behind the ship (see the shadows on the hull). Thus the bridge front is less in the light, but rather in the shadow, which makes her look darker than other areas of the ship. The funnel sides are - at least partly - in the same angle to the sun as the hull side, and they are definitely darker than the hull. This indicates that they were yellow or light buff. As the fore part of the funnels show approximately the same shade as the bridge front, I assume that the bridge had the same color as the funnels. The photo in Jentschura's book has the sun also high, but before the ship (no shadow of the boat on the hull). A copy - or more probably the original - is shown in the book "Japan, Her Strength and Her Beauty", published 1904 by P.F. Collier & Son. This picture is about 32x23 cm and of high quality. (Don't ask me for a scan, as I have no means to do one.) The funnels and the bridge are significant darker than the hull, and both are of the same shade of gray. As far as the hull stripe goes, the picture in the Kajinsha book was also published in Fukui's book "Japanese Naval Vessels Illustrated 1869-1945" Vol.2, No.2139. The Fukui picture, however, shows more different shades of gray. In this picture, the hull stripe, the hull bottom and the red parts of the flags are a bit lighter than the funnel tops. Also the interior of the fore port vent is a bit lighter than the interior of the fore port gun stand (to show you how different the shades in this photo are). So the hull stripe might have been red on this photo. Unfortunately, the photo in the Collier & Son book doesn't show a diffference between the shades of the funnelcap and those probably red parts (except for the flag, but this may be caused by the sun shining through it). According to Model Art # 561 "Camouflage of Military Ships" and the translation provided for its first part by IMA Reference Service (which is very hard to read as it was obviously done by a mashine), a white hull and mustard yellow upperworks were introduced in June 1889 for all first class vessels and torpdo boats. Hull lines were in use since March 1887 to distinguish ships of the same type, using Black, red, white, yellow and blue. In August 1893, regulations were issued to standardise this partice as follows: No 1 ship - black No 2 ship - red No 3 ship - blue No 4 ship - black double line No 5 ship - red double line No 6 ship - blue double line Also in August 1893 deck fittings other than guns and boats were ordered to be painted mouse gray. In September 1899 the hull lines were replaced by a new system of funnel lines. If my understanding is correct, these hull lines were not only to distinguish ships of the same type, but - at least later - to distinguish ships of a unit (squadron or division). Takasago was for some time of her career (especially at the outbreak of the Russo-Japanese War in 1904) the second ship of the III Division. I hope this helped to add to the confusion ;-) Falk Pletscher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume