Subject: SMML VOL 2002 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 01:04:28 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Black & White Colours 2: Classic Warships Prinz Eugen book 3: Re: Did You Ever Wonder (etc) 4: Re: Wood Deck NJ -color 5: Re: wood desk color 6: French CV Arromanches 7: Re: Sails, sailing ships, watches et al 8: Re: Did You Ever Wonder 9: dreadnaught 10: Deck colors 11: The Chilean Navy 12: Re: Did You Ever Wonder 13: Re: Question on Dreadnoughts 14: Query - Photo Etched parts 15: Re: Tirpitz 16: Cutting small parts 17: Yamato models 18: Re: SMML VOL 2000 19: Re: Gray decks 20: Re: Keep your eyes open please 21: Re: Deck color - follow up 22: sails, sailing ships, watches etc ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Black & White Colours Michael, from the photos attached it appears that both Agamemnon and Magnificent are wearing variants of standart "Victorian" scheme with black hull, white superstructure sides and ochre (buff) upperworks. What is very difficult to accertain is the colour of the narrow stripe near the top of the band of white. While in case of Agamemnon it is almost certainly black, in case of Magnificent it is probably black too but a red colour is also a possibility. The dust cover of R.A. Burt's book "British Battleships 1889-1904" shows a colour painting of one of the Majestics with black hull, white superstructure, turrets and main mast and ochre funnels, ventilators and foremast. Black hull have white stripe, white superstructure have black stripe with additional red stripe near the top of the raised superstructures forward and aft. I am searching right now for the period colour postcards of HEM Navy ships of the time but even postcards need verification since they could have been painted from life or straight from painter's imagination. Regards Darius ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: David Sepos Subject: Classic Warships Prinz Eugen book Steve, Another great Classic Warships Publication! Please answer a question. I am asking it here because I am sure there are others on this forum that may note the discrepancy and be interested in the correct answer. I immediately noticed that the swastikas on the center fold drawing are backwards. Was this an "honest" mistake or an intentional action to overcome an EU "ban" on everything Nazi related? Several photos in the book show the arms correctly bending to the right. Is there a EU ban on art/drawings that does not apply to historical photos? Inquiring minds want to know........... Regards, Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Did You Ever Wonder (etc) >> Bet you didn't know the history of that word. << See www.snopes2.com. This Urban Legend is listed as "false". The etymology from other languages make that highly credible. Cute story, though. And on another note yes, of course I've read Forrester. Wanna see my HMS Sutherland? (trick question) Allan "_old_ battleships!" Plumb ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Daniel Bauer" Subject: Re: Wood Deck NJ -color Hello, I spent 18 months on the Big J. So I think I should know what the color of the deck was. In actuallity the deck was a teak with a grayish tint to it. When maintained and scrubbed down the deck was almost a light tan. Not the honey color you see most model's decks. The Big J was well maintained while I was on board. The EMs had plenty of work to do with that teak deck too. We had the Fleet Admrial on board so the ole girl was always being kept "spit shinned" I was on board 1983-1984. Regards, Dan Bauer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: ken.p.lemaster Subject: Re: wood desk color I have not gone back to look at it, but the opening of Under Siege showed the New Jersey? under way with some water over the bow. I'll try to remember to look at my copy of the movie to see. Since the shot was made before the BBs were laid up again, the wood should be in a reasonable upkeep state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SceneN3D Subject: French CV Arromanches Can anyone recommend reference/info for the French a/c carrier "Arromanches" (ex- H.M.S. Colossus) with regard to her color scheme (flight deck, hull, s/s) during her second Indo-China cruise in the Gulf of Tonkin in late 1952 during which she shipped ex-USN Curtiss SB2C-5's and Grumman F6F-5's. All responses are much appreciated. Rob Bracci ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: Sails, sailing ships, watches et al >> Frankly I am a little surprised at the recent discussion about this topic. Especially with respect to the way in which "watches" were kept. Surprised because I would have thought that anyone using this site would have read at least one of the great sea-faring authors. For those who haven't, may I reccomend, as a starter, the following - All of whom describe life under sail in such a manner as to make you believe you were keeping watch yourself! The fictional authors are:- C.S Forrester, Nicholas Monsarrat and, more recently, Alexander Kent.. For more truly historical research may I recommend:- 1. N.A.M. Rodger's "A Naval History of Britain" (Part I, Part II still to be published) 2. Dean King's "Every Man Will Do His Duty" (1st hand accounts from the age of Nelson) And, just to prove I'm not UK biased!! 3. Stephen Howarths "From Sea to Shining Sea" (A history of the USN) I look forward to comments! << I guess I didn't cry loud enough when I complained that all of my books (many of which you listed) "have been stowed below" while the remodellers build me a decent library. All good recommendations, to which I would add Patrick O'Brian (Jack Aubrey books) and Dudley Pope (Ramage series). And without them to refer to, my tired old brain cells couldn't come up with any more than I posted earlier. Robert A. Mosher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Robert Mosher" Subject: Re: Did You Ever Wonder Actually, the Oxford Universal Dictionary does know where it comes from: Shit, shite. Not now in decent use. Old English (teutonic root *skit) 1. Excrement from the bowels, dung, 1585. b. A contemptuous epitaph applied to a man, 1508. Robert A. Mosher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "bert" Subject: dreadnaught Don Re Dreadnaught, This nomenclature comes from the name ship of a new class of battleships which at a stroke made all existing battle ships obsolete around the nineteenhundreds prior to the the great war of 1914-1918. It actually Gave the Germans an advantage as they were only just beginning to build their Navy. War at sea was not their strong point, most of their efforts were devoted to land forces. TaT. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Bill & Kaja Michaels" Subject: Deck colors I recently went to the local model shop, looking for a suitable color to get that faded wood color. I use acrylics, and I found a color in the pollyscale railroad colors-- "concrete". It is a grayish tan, and looks like the color of wood that's been out in the weather for a year or so. All of the "deck tans" and other light "wood" colors are way to brown, in my opinion. If you've ever been around boats, you know how teak goes to a silvery-gray, even when it started out a nice varnished, glossy light brown. If you haven't been around boats, take a look at the exposed wood in a wooden deck or porch.... Bill There are two rules for success in life: 1. Never tell someone everything you know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: M Brown Subject: The Chilean Navy Just what I have always wanted, someone from Chile to ask some questions of. Roberto, What are the Chilean Navy’s hull and deck colours? Is the turret top colour the same as the deck colour? There are several photos around of the Leanders and an Almirante class destroyer in camouflage schemes. Again, any idea of the colours and how long they wore these colours for? Now the most important question, would you have any idea where to obtain plans for an Almirante Class destroyer? Michael Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Re: Did You Ever Wonder Clever but untrue. "Shit" is a direct descendant of Old English "scit" (pronounced exactly as the current word) and cognate with several relatives in the various Germanic languages. Its ancestry reaches back at least 2000 years before the period described. This story reminds me of the also clever-but-untrue tale of "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" and its relation "Fornicate Under Command of the King." :-D Steve Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Question on Dreadnoughts Don wrote: >> Now can some one help me With a dreadknough question? and I May even have that spelled worng? OK what is the major difference between the battle ship and the Dreadnough, Both have small arrms and big turrets, one more when did the change O cure to change the classes of battle wagons or is just the US that call them The Battle ship? This is one thing I have never known what the difference is and why? Can any body help me with this one? For I was watching the History channel and our ships were called battle ships and the British was calling them the Dreadknough? << HMS Dreadnought (1906 introduced a new paradigm to the design of battleships. Earlier designs (now called "pre-Dreadnoughts") had two or more sizes of large caliber guns. Slow firing and inaccurate main batteries (i.e. 4 X 12" guns) would attack the heavily armored main armament and machinery spaces of the enemy vessel. Smaller, faster firing intermediate batteries (10 X 8") and rapid-fire weapons (10 X 6") would concentrate on less well armored areas. Finally,small-caliber (6 and 12 pdr.) weapons would rake the enemy's decks, as well as serve for anti-torpedo boat defense. The batteries were covered in armor of different thickness', providing protection from opposing weapons of the same size. Battles were fought at short range, in the manner of sail-age battles. The pre-dreadnoughts were powered by coal-fired, reciprocating (piston) steam The advent of effective "fish" torpedoes led designers to increase gun range to place the combatants out of torpedo range (3000-4000 yds. This produced several effects. At longer ranges, the smaller (8" and 6") guns lost velocity and therefore penetrating power faster than the heavier large caliber shells. In long range fire, aim adjustment had to be made by observing the shell splashes. This meant a new shell could not be fired until the previous shell landed, and this reduced the rate of fire of the smaller guns. It also proved difficult to distinguish between the plashes of different caliber weapons. Dreadnought dispensed with the smaller large caliber guns, concentrating on a single large battery (10 X 12"), thereby simplifying fire-control, manning and ammunition supply and storage (the small caliber anti-torpedoboat weapons were retained.) Steam turbines provided propulsion. The end result was a faster, more powerful ship. USS South Carolina was designed and built without knowledge of the British ship, but its concept was the same. Although designed in the same period as the Dreadnought, it was not laid down until after the launching of the British ship. (A good thing, because "South Carolinas" doesn't have the same ring as "Dreadnought.") The primary innovation of the South Carolina was the superposed turret arrangement (one behind and above the other.) This became common practice on later designs of all nations. South Carolina retained reciprocating engines. Dreadnought made every existing battle ship obsolete. "Dreadnought" quickly became a generic term for the new designs, more so in Europe than America. The Europeans introduced a further refinement, the "Battlecruiser". This was, in effect, a dreadnought version of the armored cruiser. HMS Invincible was the first. Battlecruisers had the armament of a battleship on a hull with the speed and protection of a cruiser. they could outrun any ship they couldn't outfight, and outfight any ship they couldn't outrun (or so it was claimed.) Battlecruisers were intended to serve as a scouting arm for the fleet, escorts for commerce and hunter/killers for enemy commerce raiders. The US Navy laid down two battlecruisers, the Lexington and the Saratoga, but with the signing of the Washington Naval Treaty, these were completed as aircraft carriers. Two other ships, Alaska and Guam, are often called battlecruisers, but were more of an Extra-Heavy Cruiser (12" guns.) By the time they entered service (late WW2) the era of the battleship was ending. Aircraft carriers were the new queens of battle, and aircraft and guided missiles replaced big guns as the primary anti-ship weapons. Edd ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SceneN3D Subject: Query - Photo Etched parts Is anyone aware of a manufacturer of P/E ships railings, hatches, etc (preferably for USN vessels) produced in 1/300 (+/-) scale? Thanks in advance for any help with this. Rob B ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: Re: Tirpitz Fred Liedel writes in SMML 2000: >> In the book I have on her "The Tirpitz Lone Queen of the North" by Jochen Brennecke he states the deck colours as being a medium green and medium brown. Bearing in mind he served on her for over three years right up until her sinking, I would rate his opinion as probably one of the best to go by. << Is there any information on light AA layout, apart from the 50 20mm guns that Tamiya includes on their 1:350 kit (10 qauds, 10 singles) in addition to the 8 twin 37mm, to be found? Even if it is only conjecture, I would very much like to build a Tirpitz in the camouflage scheme you and others describe. Already very useful and different is the Wurzburg antenna on the aft superstructure and visible in several plans both on the web and in print. But I have seen nothing in terms of light AA other than the above-mentioned layout popularized by Tamiya. I imagine that is a rather early (say after February 1944) fit, and would have been augmented or changed by July 1944 when I suppose that the various deck camouflages came into use. Any information out there? Regards, Gernot ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Robert Lockie Subject: Cutting small parts I have not tried making 1/700 DCs (yet) but I have had a need to make multiple short rods from styrene for a 1/76 mortar carrier project. I found the following works (assuming you are using a NWSL Chopper): Hold the rod against the metal strip Slowly bring down the blade until it is just cutting into the rod Rotate the rod away from you so that it kept against the metal strip, while maintaining gentle pressure on the blade to score gradually through it as it rotates. An alternative, which I have not tried yet, and may not work for the thickness you will be using, is to make a jig from styrene sheet and use an ordinary razor blade (in a home-made holder to prevent slicing off your fingers!) to slide down a slot in it. These blades are thinner and so the taper is less pronounced. However, the chap who told me about this use it for making 1/76 rivets from 10 thou rod, where any taper is less obvious anyway and the stuff is much easier to cut with one stroke. Good luck. Robert Lockie Swindon UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Denis" Subject: Yamato models Can any one assist with a review of the Doyusha 1/250 kit of the Yamato. I hav seen one one here for A$160 and I hav always wanted a big Yamato. Is it a rebadged Arii? Any help/comment appreciated. I have run through a Google search over the last few days but am currently going cross eyed with little or no joy. Regards & congrats on reaching 2000. Keep it going! denis james ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: DortaB Subject: Re: SMML VOL 2000 Shane and Lorna, Congrats on this milestone, and thanks for the time and work that has gone into it. George Cost Tampa, Fl, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: ELLshipmodeler Subject: Re: Gray decks I appreciate the return comments on the color of the NJ decks. I can only say that the degree of maintenance has some effect on the color, but they still gray. NJ certainly needs some maintenance and refurbishing. I have photos of the decks of recently built cruise ships. They are maintained. The teak color is gray. When the crew would wash down every morning the color would change to shades of tan. When the decks dried the gray would return. I have a photo of the wash down process taken specifically for this purpose, and it shows a half gray deck in the dry area and half tan deck in the wet area. To me the bright beautiful tan colored deck on a warship is out of place and a distraction. Gene Larson Alexandria, Virginia Member, NRG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Keep your eyes open please >> Last week a friend of mine who was away undertaking research in Scotland, returned to find that his outside workshop had been broken into. His lathe had been taken and worst of all his working 1/48 scale model of HMS Espiegle (J 216) an Algerine Class Fleet Minesweeper. Gordon is a resident of Coleshill in Birmingham and the Chairman of the Surface Warship Association. His model is well known at various international model shows here in the UK, Isle of Man, and Germany and a regular award winner having been photographed for various model magazines. As its value is upwards of £9,000 with all its working parts it is a cruel loss. I (We) would appreciate a location, recovery and CONVICTION. (The Police have been informed (but at the time of writing had yet to attend ..... a normal state in our pleasant land at this time). Any information would be appreciated gents. (Gordon is an ex Chief ERA and served aboard Espiegle during his RN service). << John, is there any way you can post photographs of the model? Given the small potential market for a model like this about 1000 SMML readers might be of some help in finding/ identifying it...... Pieter Cornelissen Delft The Netherlands We would gladly post any pictures S & L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: ELLshipmodeler Subject: Re: Deck color - follow up Follow-up to my last message. I have to yield a little. In looking at some color photos in cocktail table books of USN warships some overhead shots do show a pronounced wood color. Other photos do not. This adds total confusion to the question. Looking closely at the photos it almost appears some have been enhanced to show wood color where an expert knew the decks were wood - they are too even. In the world of digital photo enhancement we are at the mercy of those well meaning people. But even then the decks do not jump out at you as bright wood. As a Midshipman I served aboard these ships, but obviously the deck color was of no concern. Upon graduation I was commissioned in the USAF, thus ending my Naval career. This is a good discussion and perhaps there is a resolution. Gene Larson Alexandria, Virginia Member, NRG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Franz Aigner GmbH" Subject: sails, sailing ships, watches etc Patrick O'Brians Aubrey/Maturin 20-volume series, starting with "Master and Commander", would be another excellent work of fiction ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume