Subject: SMML VOL 2031 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:06:31 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: WWII USN Submarines 2: a lot of questions 3: Re: Phil Martens and John Collins 4: Trumpeter Hornet to Enterprise/Yorktown conversion 5: Cancelled French Battle Ships and Kits 6: Re: Trumpeter list 7: MV Durban Castle 8: Re: Doolittle raid 9: Frank Gaffney on Missile Defense on National Review Online 10: Re: Doolittle Raid 11: Warped plastic/titanic 12: Early American Battleships 13: Re: Andrea Gail 14: Artifacts and gravesites 15: JETCAL 16: F.A.A. in WWII ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Collins Subject: WWII USN Submarines Greetings; I have a question about the use of hand rails by USN submarines on patrol during WWII. I've read several historial novels by former sumariners where the authors stated that the crews removed hand rails and stanchions and them stored ashore prior to patrol -- unofficially, of course -- because these items made a great deal of noise underwater. It certainly sounds plausable, but is based on fact or is it simply the author's invention? Thanks, John Collins Franklin, TN USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "sparky mansell" Subject: a lot of questions Last night i watched this history program "task group Spruance" excellent progran. my 2 main questions are, aboard this huge ship maybe a battleship of heavy cruiser. it showed a wooden deck. ive read someplace to put the dark areas on the deck the hemp between the planks sort of was to paint the deck black first then a fine coat of tan, teak,etc over this then sand very lightly the deck tan off the groves to make this deck look real???? also the bulk heads seemed to be a darker grey than the rest of the ship what color grey is this? color coat has this???? thanks ray m ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Ted0330 Subject: Re: Phil Martens and John Collins Hi to both of you. I also live in TN, although in Knoxville. There are other quality builders in Oak Ridge. Ted ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: EDWARD GRUNE Subject: Trumpeter Hornet to Enterprise/Yorktown conversion James Corley wrote in SMML2030 that his company (Nautilus Models) has completed the masters for this conversion. Hi James: I'll be driving back East to have Thanksgiving with the family in Atlanta. I've already let it be known that I was going to check out your shop on Friday. If the conversion master is there, I'd really like to see it. Ed Mansfield, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Mike Bartel Subject: Cancelled French Battle Ships and Kits >> Can anyone out there guide me towards some information on the French capital ships that were to follow the JEAN BART and RICHELIEU? As I understand it there was to be a 3rd unit (CLEMENCEAU) with a mild secondary battery re-arrangement and a 4th unit with major design features altered (GASCOGNE). Yesterday I came across a Vol.1/ 1988 issue of WARSHIP INTERNATIONAL with an article by Stephen McLaughlin that decribes a class of Battleships authorized by the French Govt in 1940 (design never finalized) consisting of six ships (ALSACE, NORMANDIE, FLANDRE, BOURGOGNE and two units never named.) The same issue also mentioned that the Dutch were planning a battlecruiser in 1939 that would have had some design basis in the German SCHARNHORST/GNEISENAU class. All this is new to me, anyone interested in an online/offline discussion of these ships???? << Garzke & Dulin (Battleships- Allied Battle ships in WW2, Naval Institute Press) give about as much general information as there is on the Alsace class, which was to have numbered four ships (the ones you listed). Two further ships, armed with 16-inch guns in triple turrets, were projected, but not named, nor did they have designs finalized. Gascogne, the fourth Richelieu-class ship, would have had the superstructure moved forward 60 feet to accomodate one main turret relocated aft. Though it would have lessened the chances of a lucky hit taking out all the main armament, it still concentrated half the ships' main armament in two turrets. The French took an important step when they dispensed with this arrangement and designed the Alsace class, which might have been far more capable in action. The Dutch '1047' design was to be similar in armament to the Scharnhorst class (indeed, they were to have used 11in triple turrets and rifles purchased from Germany), and they were intended for protection of Dutch posessions and designed to fight 8in. cruisers. Most of the sources on these ships show similar information, and they usually go through the design stages before reaching the final design. Garzke & Dulin also have a good overview of this class. I suppose there isn't much to say about them that hasn't already been said, but they do make for interesting reading. At one point, I planned 1:700 scale kits for the Alsace and 1047 designs, and even made a hull master for the Alsace, but then discovered there wasn't a lot of interest in them. They are just interesting footnotes to the history of capital ship construction. Mike Bartel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: spallen Subject: Re: Trumpeter list >> As for a 27A, that conversion is being researched right now and the plans are to do the island before the kit comes out and finish it up with the proper catwalks, etc. later, just like with the Hornet. We might even do soem airplanes for it. << Great! Now, what about a -125????? Steve Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Millen, Alan R." Subject: MV Durban Castle Gotta come outa my shell for a question. Acquired a pewter mug yesterday at an estate sale. Wasn't wearing my glasses at the time, all I could make out was what appeared to be a Scottish Flag, the overall blue one with the white St. Andrews cross. Upon getting home and looking at it with my specs on, turns out the white cross has a very small white diamond shape in the center, and the ring around the flag reads 'M. V. Durban Castle.' Any clues out there, assuming, of course, that M. V. means 'Motor Vessel'? Alan R. Millen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: HARRY GILDAY Subject: Re: Doolittle raid On the subject of the doolittle raid, there is a new book called [THE FIRST HEROES BY CRAIG NELSON]. i read one chapter i got on line and it was excellent. the writer interviewed all of the remaining crew members and the book is very interesting. I RECOMEND THIS BOOK,TO ANYBODY WHO LIKES WW2 STORIES. HARRY N GILDAY ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Kutina Subject: Frank Gaffney on Missile Defense on National Review Online http://www.nationalreview.com/gaffney/gaffney112502.asp ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Graham Boak" Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid When an aero engine is tuned to run lean, for long endurance, the lead in the petrol comes out in the exhaust, leaving light grey streaking. This is certain to be the case with the Doolittle aircraft, and (as one contributor has said) the lighter colour on the nacelle behind the cowling will be caused by this effect. It is worth pointing out that the supply of Olive Drab from different manufacturers did vary a lot, even when new. This seems to be particularly clear on C-47s, with a very sandy fuselage but green wings. From the little evidence I have seen, North American's aircraft tended to use one of the greener, fading to brown, versions of OD. If you want to be fussy paint the model in a slightly browner shade on the top of the fuselage and wings which received the greatest exposure, a fresher green on the cowlings where (as said earlier) sub-unit colours were overpainted, and light grey streaks on the cowlings. Then there is the dirt thrown up onto the underside from the wheels. However, just how much of this is going to be noticeable in 1/350-1/700? I suppose it depends upon the modeller's patience and skill - good luck! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "john fiebke" Subject: Warped plastic/titanic If this has been asked before, I'm sorry. I have the new 1/700 modern New Jersey from Trumpeter/Pitroad and the hull is warped at the ends. Is there a fix for this, like the boiling water trick for resin kits? I could screw it to a board, but I want to be able to sit it alongside my other waterline ships, which just sit on blue base that is common to them all. Thank you for any help. And in regards to my comments about the sancitity of wreck sites, I may have come across a bit too one-sided. I know we can't maintain every piece of the earth or metal where war or accident took a life. But certain things have a historical significance that I believe should be preserved...and though profitable, the Titanic exhibit preserves and illustrates history in a way that would be impossible otherwise. I'd visit it if I could. And having lived on the outskirts of a Civil War battlefield (cold harbor. VA), I also know that if we preserved every acre of land from that war, most of the southern US would be off limits. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in the grey area, between the black and white extremes. john fiebke ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: RPayne8452 Subject: Early American Battleships Here's a question for all you engineer types. I am currently modifying Glenco's USS Oregon and have completed making the fore top structure out of walnut. In showing this little piece to some friends of mine, the question was asked are you sure it was made of wood? And if so why. Well my only references are the box art (scary), a picture of the one Mike Ashey for one of his books and some old black and white pics. In looking at the black and white shots, it seems that all of the early American battleships, at least all of those prior to The New Hampshire, BB-25 authorized in 1904, had this same structure made of wood. The rear structure appears to of metal. Any thoughts? Thanks bob payne san antonio ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SeaPhoto Subject: Re: Andrea Gail I have done a bit of research on the Andrea Gail - the movie version, not the real ship. In the movie, she was "played" by the Lady Grace, a ship brought over from the West coast. She and the Hannah Boden are near identical. After the movie, the Lady Grace was sold on eBay to a company called Legal Seafoods. From there, I have lost track of her; the company did not return correspondence. I tried to contact Industrial Light and Magic, the special effects company that built the 3D model of the ship used in the movie, but to no avail. Even a letter to Wolfgang Peterson, the director was sent without reply. No surprises there, but I felt it worth the effort. The DVD of the movie is a good resource, especially if you can play it on your computer and capture frames from the film. The documentary that is also included on the disc is also useful. I have had some luck by contacting the secretary of the Gloucester ship model society, who kindly sent some photos of a similar ship in drydock. So far, I have not gathered enough information to draw up hull lines for her. Every once in a while, I try to find similar blueprints for a hard chine Western Rigged Swordfish boat, but no luck so far. Should anyone wish to share information on the (movie) Andrea Gail, I would be happy to cooperate. Cordially, Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography www.warshipphotos.com Order via our online catalog...now taking credit cards via Paypal Warship Models Underway www.warshipmodelsunderway.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Jeff Herne, NJAHOF" Subject: Artifacts and gravesites I think there's a bit of a clouded area here that we're missing... I believe that wrecks that are gravesites should be left alone...by this I mean, no commercial salvage rights, the selling of artifacts for profit, etc... However, if someone removes artifacts from a wreck site such as Titanic or Lusitania, and those artifacts end up as a travelling exhibit, or in a museum, then, as long as they are cared for and treated with the respect due to them, then I have no problem with it provided they are used to convey a message or to educate. If salvors want to make a profit from a wreck, then they should be in the employ of an institution that intends to care for and display these artifacts for educational purposes. Otherwise, the wrecks should be left alone. A perfect example...(and please folks...don't get mad) is the Holocaust museum in Washington DC. There is nothing more dramatic than seeing the clothing, and crates with hundreds of pairs eyeglasses and shoes, and the personal artifacts from the camps. Although the circumstances of the events are completely different, the importance and impact of those items (artifacts) are very much the same. Yet, they on public display and are intended to educate. The impact they have is beyond my words. The message they choose to convey is vividly accomplished. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that as long as it is done for the right reasons, that the controlled salvage of artifacts is ok as long as it is done within standards acceptable to the museum and academic community. Diving on a wreck, tearing a hole in the hull, pulling out some artifacts and putting them up on Ebay or sending them to Christy's or Sotheby's is just wrong... But it seems that at some point it becomes ok...gold and jewels found in Spanish galleons that sank are recovered and sold off at auctions...yet very few ever cry foul because the galleons are considered gravesites...you can argue this from both sides all day long and never reach a conclusion. That's my two pence, Jeff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "DUCKMAN" Subject: JETCAL HI ALL, what's everybody think of this decal paper? DAVID ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: F.A.A. in WWII Chris A good, cheap reference book on the FAA during WWII would be "Fleet Air Arm; British Carrier Aviation, 1939-1945" by Ron MacKay and published by Squadron/Signal Books. It should be readily available. However, as you are obviously looking to model the aircraft on HMS Formidable during early 1943, I can provide some details from the references I have. All the aircraft you list would have had an uppersurface camouflage of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey (actually a grey-green) with the undersurfaces in Sky. All would have had B roundels (no white) on upperwings, with C or C1 roundels (narrow white circles) elsewhere, and standard fin stripes with a narrow white band. For the individual squadrons: Seafire Ib or IIb's of 885 squadron had white code letters, of the form (phi) * 6 (letter), where (phi) is the Greek letter, * is the roundel, and individual aircraft letters I have seen include F, K and B. Spinners were painted in sky. This information is from photos dated/captioned 2/43, 5/43, 7/43 and spring 1943, so right in your time frame. Martlet II or III's of 888 Squadron also had white code letters, of the form (phi)* 7 (letter). Photos dated 1/43 show aircraft letters of L, O and K. Martlet IV's of 893 Squadron had white code letters, (phi) * 9 (letter), with Z, H, B, F and P being examples of the latter, from photos from early to later in 1943. Albacores of 820 Squadron. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any photos of Albacores from your desired time frame, but pictures taken during Operation Torch (with stars instead of roundels) show white codes of (phi) L * and dark coloured spinners. If you want more detailed answers, post you question on the FAA SIG forum (Hanger Talk) and I'm sure you will get heaps of answers. http://www.faasig.org/msgbd.htm cheers Cliff Franklin New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume