Subject: SMML VOL 2048 Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 12:10:56 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: 1st shot in ww2 2: Next carrier - to be named for George Bush 3: Re: Japanese Midget subs at Pearl Harbor 4: Felix Bustelo's 1/600 reviews 5: Re: Warship Plans and Midget Subs 6: Re: GPM PoW 7: Re: First Shot in the Pacific War 8: First Shot 9: Accuracy of Ships Plans 10: Frog Kit of HMS Tiger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Roger Buckley" Subject: 1st shot in ww2 I seem to recall the germans beat the japanese and the americans to it by a couple of years. Thats why we know it as the 39-45 war. regards Roger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Kutina Subject: Next carrier - to be named for George Bush http://www.lucianne.com/threads2.asp?artnum=267385 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: Japanese Midget subs at Pearl Harbor Without regard to the PANAY, it should also be noted that the Japanese actually shot down at least one British reconnaissance aircraft out of Malaya that came out to find their invasion force, several hours before Pearl Harbor. And of course if you count the Japanese war with China as being the first phase of WWII then the first shots were fired as much as 10 years before Pearl Harbor. Brooks A Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Peter Sketchley" Subject: Felix Bustelo's 1/600 reviews I know the where abouts of the IMM web pages was posted sometime ago, but I cannot remember! I need to read some of the 1/600 scale reviews that Felix published for some future projects on ocean liners. Can anyone tell me where I can now find this information? Regards Peter Sketchley Cambridge UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Warship Plans and Midget Subs Darius wrote: >> Those are just primary sources, there are many more photographs and drawings from various sources which I use for cross-reference purposes. << Darius, Although I realize you used the term "primary sources" to indicate the main sources you relied upon to make your judgements, please note the term has a different meaning in historical "jargon." Primary sources are sources directly relating to an event. For example, films taken of the attack on Pearl Harbor, military action reports, survivor commentary, or contemporary newspaper stories would all be "primary sources." Books or documentaries made after the event, i.e. "At Dawn We Slept" are "secondary sources." (Although I have not heard the term used (I'm not a historian), I assume "tertiary sources" would be articles based on secondary sources, as secondary sources are based on primary sources.) Even quotes or reproductions of primary sources in secondary source material should be considered "secondary source" as it may be misquoted or inaccurately reproduced. The best historical research is done from primary sources, but even with this information, there are gaps and inconsistencies. Consider the recent discussions in the group over the color of battleships in Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack. Arguments based on primary sources can lead to different conclusions, depending on the weight given to the various items. A paint chip from the hull of the Arizona would be better, but would only prove the conclusions for the Arizona. Again, Darius, this is not meant as a criticism of your research, or conclusions, merely as note on terminology to avoid future confusion. Don wrote: >> I was wondering can any body tell me what Station on the west coast of the US is that show on the Miget sub suppose to be on. Whot Co, What day? << Don, The Midget Sub program will be on Sunday, Dec. 8 on "War Stories with Oliver North" on the Fox News Channel. Here in the Midwest, the program airs at 7 p.m. and is re-broadcast later in the evening (the entire primetime lineup airs twice.) That may mean 5 p.m. on the West Coast, or the schedule may be delayed for your market (usually moved to 8 p.m. to coincide with the East Coast schedule.) Either way, it should give you a starting point to locate it. Edd ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Damian Pliszka Subject: Re: GPM PoW Hi. >> Cruel blow by GPM, referred to the PoW as a British Cruiser! Ouch. << Insignificant detail. A model in itself is outstanding. Damian, Poland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Sanartjam Subject: Re: First Shot in the Pacific War Hi SMML, Even aside from the Panay, which I wouldn't count, the Japanese did fire the first shots of the Pacific War; the day before the Ward opened fire on the midget sub, Japanese fighters shot down a British Catalina in the South China Sea so it wouldn't spot their invasion convoys, and, about 20 minutes before the Ward shot at the midget sub, the Japanese bombarded and landed at Kota Bharu in northern Malaya. Art Nicholson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Richard Sweeney Subject: First Shot Hi Burl, I'm glad you clarified your position, and I apologise if you felt my comments were directed at you personally that was not the case. But I have heard so many people lately trying to say that By firing the "first shot" The US started the War. Also the attempt a few years ago by a curator at the Smithsonian to put a US War of Imperialism spin on it. Also did you see the other posting by Doug Merril, He's got us on that point, The sinking of the USS Panay by the Japanese did procede Pearl Harbor by quite a while. Though in that case I believe diplomacy did prevail. I also loved your "How to Be a Sailor" post. Still look forward to seeing the show. Take Care. Richard Sweeney ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: nd.ward Subject: Accuracy of Ships Plans Following the thread on accuracy of plans, I can say that builders plans can be suspect from the start. The 'planned' drawings can and will vary from the actual building. This could be because of production problems, or even the designers complete **** - up. It may be true now with accurate 3-D computer modelling and draughting, but in the pencil and board era changes in construction were not generally fed back to correct the original drawings. A scrap drawing or a note could be added to the plan portfolio, but these could be lost, or ignored. I stood by a new construction, and also served on a few 'sisters' (built in the same yard), and the differences between nominally identical ships was scary. Never enough to cause problems, but enough give doubts about your memory (or sanity). Dave Ward ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Reeder Subject: Frog Kit of HMS Tiger I am looking for the old Frog kit of HMS Tiger in 1:500 scale. I've checked a number of internet sites without success, so suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume