Subject: SMML VOL 2049 Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 00:50:20 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: First Shot in the Pacific War 2: HMS Ark Royal 1960 3: Re: Accuracy of condemnation of ships plans 4: Next carrier - to be named for George Bush 5: who fired first 6: To all SMMLies in Australia 7: Re: Accuracy of the ship plans 8: Re: Accuracy of Ships Plans 9: Re: Frog Tiger 10: Not everything the Navy launches flys! 11: Last point on historical dates 12: Re: Frog Kit of HMS Tiger 13: mixing scales 14: Re: 1st Shot in WWII -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: 1:700 kits on eBay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "mrfixx" Subject: Re: First Shot in the Pacific War A ctually, if you REALLY wanted to get technical, the Japs 1st invaded Manchuria BEFORE invading China. Many historical books say that this is the "official" start of WWII. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Graeme Martin Subject: HMS Ark Royal 1960 Does anybody know where I can source 1:192 scale plans of either Ark Royal or Eagle from 1960's era? Graeme Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Jon Warneke Subject: Re: Accuracy of condemnation of ships plans Hi All, Well, I guess Darius caught me, since he obviously looks at books and pamphlets as primary sources, even when it's stated that they're "author's drawings". I do believe I mentioned actual plans and photographs as being primary sources of information, but to each his own. >> Now Jon, after all that, would you be kind enough to tell me what were your primary sources for ISW's "Brooklyn"??? Since main deck layout does not tally with the original builders drawings held in US National Archives and published in Warship vol.XVI I am kind of curious.... << Most certainly. Let's start with the numerous photos available from the Naval Historical Center online. Then, we can also include "US Armored Cruisers" by Ivan Musicant, which has numerous well sources photographs as well as textual information which will clarify many of the design details. But of course I mentioned primary sources, which means plans. So, the plans used were builder's drawings from Brooklyn Navy Yard dated June 1897, another set corrected to 05 June 1905, and finally a third set of drawings from Union Iron Works, San Francisco, dates 01 July 1914, which bear a striking similarity to the single reference you mention. And for the record, would you please include this information to the unsolicited e-mails you've been sending to the people who've bought this kit? Finally, I'd like to remind everyone of Darius's original statement on the Brooklyn kit. This comes from SMML vol 1953, as was as follows: >>From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: A treat for pre-dreadnoughts enthusiasts Have a look at Steel Navy's Ocober Mystery Model which IMO can only be 1/350 scale kit of USS Brooklyn by YS Master Pieces. If this indeed is the case than, boy, Yannis Sagiadinos does work FAST!!!!! He only started some time in the end of June and has the hull ready by the begining of October!!?? << To which he added... >> PS: Spencer Lawes opened an interesting possibility that USS Brooklyn might not be by YS Master Pieces but by ISW.... October Mystery Model gets more mysterious by the minute!!!! I will wait for the real designer to be revealed before progressing any further.... << So, since you've discovered who makes this kit, would you like to retract your statement of it being "A treat for pre-dreadnoughts enthusiasts"? Just asking. Your buddy, Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Ives100 Subject: Next carrier - to be named for George Bush It would be fitting if the Navy broke tradition in the naming of the current Virginia class submarines and named one the USS Edward L. Beach. There is already precedent for such a special naming, as an Ohio class SSBN was named the USS Henry Jackson (the original hull name was the Rhode Island, and another hull got that name later). It would be altogether fitting to name an attack submarine after one of our greatest submariners. Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "melee" Subject: who fired first Let's not give the people who want to rewrite history, like those who say that the holocaust never happened or that there was no chemical experiments conducted by the Japanese any more ammunition. Even without the Panay and the catalina.....when a country sends its forces thousands of miles and then launches strike aircraft and submarines...it is an unimportant point who fired first. If you see someone aiming a rifle in MacDonalds and you are carrying a handgun, do you have to wait for the person to kill someone before you can shoot him? No, you don't...defense in the face of aggression is a recognized right Sincerely Lee Shackelford ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Chuck Messer" Subject: To all SMMLies in Australia Just to let you know I understand what you're going through with the brush fires down there. Here in Colorado, we had quite a summer for brush fires. It seemed at one time the whole state was burning down. One day the smoke reached the Denver area. It was like a thick fog down there. The sun was red. I hope you're all doing well and your homes are out of harm's way. Chuck ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Accuracy of the ship plans Edd Pflum -point well made Edd, my sources were indeed secondary and not primary. Dave Ward -since all of the ships I wrote about are no more, the builders drawings cross-referenced with photographs (details in photographs override details in builders drawings) are the only sources we are abble to draw our informations from. If drawings (and models) of ships from that age agree with builders drawings and photographs nobody can prove that they are inaccurate but if they don't, than author's research can be proven to have been flawed. Regards Darius ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Re: Accuracy of Ships Plans >> Following the thread on accuracy of plans, I can say that builders plans can be suspect from the start. The 'planned' drawings can and will vary from the actual building. This could be because of production problems, or even the designers complete **** - up. . . . . << Excellent case-in-point: the BuOrd bungling associated witht the design of the Iowa-class main barbettes. Steve Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Stephen Allen" Subject: Re: Frog Tiger John The Frog Tiger was re-released recently by a Russian firm called Eastern Express. And it is about 1:415 scale, not 1:500, and it is not up to the quality of the later Frog 1:500 offerings - in fact it's pretty awful. regards Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Hubert Letterly Subject: Not everything the Navy launches flys! Check this out! >> Check this out! These guys must be getting pretty bored! http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76059 << Hugh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Doug Marrel" Subject: Last point on historical dates You can make a case that WWII European theater armed combat started in 1936 with the Spanish Civil War, with minimal interruptions between large military forces until 1945. If you want to get really snotty, you can point to Italy's invasion of Ethiopia in what 1931? Same for Pacific theater, starts with the invasion of China's Manchuria area by Japan in 1931. And certainly no later than 1937 with the China Incident, the Rape of Nanking and the sinking of the Panay. Beginning dates of wars by historians are almost always prescribed by the national heritage of the historian involved. After all, the Russians still call it the Great Patriotic War and treat any European involvement prior to the invasion of their country as mere sideshows of political struggle. Not a few of us date the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-1 from the attack on the USS Stark in 1987, it just took a while to mobilize.. After all, WWI didn't jump into full conflixt with the death of a Serbian Archduke, it took some time for full engagement to start, but now everyone dates that conflict from that moment. Sorry, I've sucked up enough bandwidth on this subject. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Terry Wiltshire Subject: Re: Frog Kit of HMS Tiger >> I am looking for the old Frog kit of HMS Tiger in 1:500 scale. I've checked a number of internet sites without success, so suggestions would be appreciated. << John The Frog HMS Tiger is 1/415 scale not 1/500. Terry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: ED LARYEH Subject: mixing scales Having different models in different scales is certainly a matter of individual preference. I decided to concentrate on 1:1200/1:1250 over 40 years ago. I donated my few surviving 1:500 models to the Massachusetts Maritime Museum over 30 years ago and haven't looked back. The two big factors for me were the ability to compare models in the same scale, and the space that a large collection takes. I now have well over 5000 ship models and they fill two galss front cabinets to the extent that many of the miniature modifications or paint jobs are not visible. I tend to use the front of 1 or two shelves to display particularly nice models and change the selection every few months. It's my collection, and I pick what I want to see. Right now, the display section has some US WW I camouflage, some US Civil war (because of the discussion about the Pook Turtles here on SMML) a set of Russo-Japanese War, and some of the Royal Navy WWII camouflage that I have been painting recently (Bless You, WEM, for providing accurate colors!) If I worked in a different scale, there would be no room. Then again, not everyone wants to have all 8 of the RN "A" class destroyers, each with it's own pennant number. I've got nearly all the GATO class, too, some are post-war variations (all the GUPPY types) The permutations are endless. Each of us chooses what is best for his own purposes. If you think mixing scales makes a nicer display, by all means, do it. I like constant scale, and keep my models the way I like them. Aryeh Wetherhorn Elazar, Israel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: 1st Shot in WWII As for US involvement, do not forget The USS Kearny, DD-432 was damaged by a torpedo on 17 Oct 1941, and the USS Reubin James, DD-245 was sunk on 31 Oct 1941, both several weeks before Pearl Harbor. I know some U-boats were fired upon before 7 Dec, but the dates and incidents escape me at the moment. Mike Settle ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mike Bartel Subject: 1:700 kits on eBay I'm a little late with this, as the auctions end in a day or so, but I put 11 1/700 plastic waterline kits from my collection on eBay. They are all Tamiya, Hawegawa, Aoshima and Fujimi kits. Some are still shrink-wrapped while a few others have been started. Hope some of you are interested in these and can use them. Mike Bartel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume