Subject: SMML VOL 2056 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:55:25 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Andrea Gail lines 2: Re: 1:1200 rigging 3: U.S. Schooner Yacht 1806 4: Re: Authencity 5: Re: Last shot 6: BB Paint Schemes a la 1941 7: Re: Sub Chasers 8: New WEM Website 9: VWs do Float 10: USS Oklahoma conversion 11: Pearl Harbor Camouflage 12: Re: Essex aircraft sets 13: naming carriers 14: Hornet kit 15: big gun recoil 16: Re: Accuracy 17: Re: DRAYTON as Re: BB paint schemes at Pearl Harbor 18: Re: 1:1200 scale Rigging 19: WEM HMS Janus arrives 20: Re: C-2 Greyhound 21: Re: BB's paint scheme @ Pearl Harbor 22: Saipan and Vittorio Veneto 23: Attacks versus Constructive Criticism 24: Model Accuracy Redux ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Fritz Koopman Subject: Re: Andrea Gail lines I know that its been a while since this discussion passed. But this information has only now come to my attention. To whomever was looking to find a copy of the original lines drawings for the Andrea Gail: Contact Jack Gilbert & Associates down in Hingham Massachusetts. This office designed her class of vessel. They cerainly won't have any plans involving updates to equipment, but it may be a good place to start for a raw hullform. Best Regards Fritz K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: 1:1200 rigging To: Edd Pflum Edd, you want frustration? Try putting all the correct (and correctly placed) underwater through-the-hull inlet and outlet fittings on a model, any scale. Hoo-Boy!!! And rigging problems occur on non-saling ship models as well. Wiping a newly installed rigging with Elmer's white glue will help solve the "sagging"problem. On Navy ships, painting thread rigging with a dilute gray paint will simulate wire rope and stiffen the thread at the same time, although "fuzzing" may occur. Experiment with it. I "solved" the fuzz problem on a model of an old whaling ship by putting a reproduction of an antique map of the World on the back side of the display case. Thus no one notices the fuzz (I hope). It was horrible when the case was back-lit by a window. Sneaky? You bet. Old age and guile will beat youth and candor, every time Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Roger Buckley" Subject: U.S. Schooner Yacht 1806 This wooden model kit by Authentic Models Holland arrived today - an ebay purchase. All the parts are there, checklist in the booklet, and the dowels & hardware etc all in packets unopened. The only thing missing is Page 1 of the schematic. The steps arte listed in the booklet - attatch part 6 to part 7 etc. but the schematic would help a newbie like me. Step 11-finish I have in the box. If anyone has done this model or has a scan of the schematic would they contact me off list. TIA rabuckley@tiscali.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Authencity To: Albert Choy You asked "Who gives a gnat's (in my day it was "rat's") tail about authencity of a model?). May I submit the gnat (or rat) as a prime candidate? Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Last shot To: Darren I am planning to be the guy who steps on the cockroach. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: BB Paint Schemes a la 1941 All this talk of BB paint schemes at Pearl Harbor really neglects the effect of sun, sailors, and sundry other factors. If the swabbie doing the painting had used too thick or too thin a coat of red lead, or left holidays in some areas, and tried to compensate for this with extra coats of paint there would be differences in the painted finish. Of course, if he were using a pig bristle left-handed brush in lieu of a horse or camel-bristle right-handed brush, this would alter the light reflecting characteristics of his painted handiwork. This is readily apparent in black and white period photos, as we all know. And if they knocked off ship's work for noon chow, the sun would have dried the paint to some degree when he secured from painting to go below and chow down. Upon commencing ship's work (painting) after chow, he might have picked up another type of brush, used a can of paint from a diff lot number, and not held it at the right angle suggested in the 1940 edition of the BJM, and being in a hurry to secure from painting later on, may have thinned the paint so as to cover a wider area faster. Now the old Chief Boatswain looking over his shoulder would have, of course, gently reminded him of his inaptitude in applying the taxpayer's paint. The poor swabbie would have felt so bad about this that he would have voluntarily forgone his Liberty Card to stay aboard and repaint that which he had already painted earlier. Now the pig-bristle brushes from China left diff striations from those of Japan, and especially from those of Manchuria, so you fail to allow for the obvious diff in light reflections from the various cured surfaces with their gentle undulations in texture. Even the First Lieutenant would be at a singular disadvantage in observing the diff in paint between one turret top and another. The crew in the 1st Div forward were notorious in applying their painted handiwork.The formulation for their issue from the paint locker was always suspect by the Second Div paint gang. The Second Div crew back aft always suspected the First gang of doctoring thier paint to make it go further with a special urinary concotion. We can't even begin to consider the effect of the 3 pm tropical downpour on the wet painted horizontal surfaces. The shift in the Munsell color patterns (from gray to white and back again in all the hues and tones) would not be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer of the scene. Sigh, reckon I'll just have to grit my teeth and repair to the Snyder and Short color chips. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Sub Chasers To: Starline/Fleetline Delighted to meet you, sir. I have been hoping to find a second SMML resident expert on Sub Chasers for quite a while. When seeking information I try to confirm whatever it is I acquire. Now, along with the first resident S/C expert, Art Herrick, you can provide me with "a second opinion" (but if got your information from Art, then ????). Brace yourself, Laddie. About S/C movies, I haven't seen the movie to which you refer, but I have heard of it. I believe it starred Wallace Beery Sr., and did indeed use WW 1 chasers. This is most apt to be true if the flick was made between the wars, as the WW 2 versions were developed in the very late 30's. Captain Treadwell (diodor@aol.com) can address the time frame more precisely. One thing is sure, if the film is set in WW 1, they didn't battle Nazi subs. Nasty subs, yes. Nazi subs, no. I believe there were three movies, none of which I have seen, in which WW 1 chasers appeared. One was the "Thunder Afloat" to which you referred. Another was "Midshipman Jack". I am currently trying to trace down the third. Tunnel-visioned as I am, I don't care about the plot, I just want to see the boats. Where is the "over here" to which you refer? To me, "over here" is Boston, Mass., USA. Incidentally, we Bostonians are always being accused of having an accent. Not true, but let me point out parenthetically that the rest of the world (west of the Boston "suburb" of Dedham, that is) certainly does. Many different ones, in fact. C'est la vie! Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Kelvin Mok Subject: VWs do Float >> But only for a while, as I found out after driving into a four-foot deep puddle. << A friend related his proof back to his engineering college days. The concept was too intriguing to let go without a test. So one of his classmates who had a beetle volunteered. The beetle floated alright so long as the windows were closed. However the moment the driver opened his window to shout for a haul back to shore water spurted in through the battery cable hole. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Michael McMurtrey Subject: USS Oklahoma conversion In SMML 2055, annobon4 mentioned that he/she had converted the Matchbox 1/720 Arizona (ex-Revell) to the Oklahoma. I'd appreciate details of how this conversion was accomplished. Two of my mother's cousins perished on Oklahoma, and I've always wanted to build a model of that ship in their memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "GARRETT, DAVID M" Subject: Pearl Harbor Camouflage To the gentlemen asking about US Navy camouflage measures at Pearl Harbor, I refer you to the following site -- U.S.N. Camouflage 1941-1945 -- as an excellent resource. http://www.shipcamouflage.com/usn_bb.htm According to the chart the following battleships were painted as follows: * Nevada - MS-5 * Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Tennessee, California, West Virginia -- MS-1 Measure 1: Vertical surfaces above the top of the stacks was Light Gray (5-L). Horizontal surfaces except wood decks painted Dark Gray (5-D). Measure 5: Provided for a painted bow wave. Verticals -- upper edge of the bow wave painted white; the dark body of the bow wave painted dark blue or a dark gray. (In case the bow wave is painted on a ship which is painted Dark Gray (MS-1), the bow wave painting merely amounts to outlining the upper edge of the wave in white. All verticals above the top of the stacks painted Light Gray (5-L). All horizontal surfaces except wood decks shall be painted Dark Gray 5-D. The systems differ only in the painting of the vertical surfaces. In case of doubt, as on sloping surfaces, use Dark Gray 5-D. Notes: The camouflage painting need not be exact or carried into corners. Small gear, wires, rigging, and areas permanently in shadow, as under boats, etc., need not be painted with the camouflage colors. There is no objection to exact or careful painting which may be desired for the sake of good appearance at close range. All bright or shiny objects, no matter how insignificant, shall be painted, covered, or removed. Glass windows shall be covered or removed, especially during the day in sunny weather, and at night when anticipating searchlight discovery. Insofar as conditions permit, similar precautions shall be taken on airport lenses. Wood decks, except on submarines, shall not be darkened pending further instructions. The best paint or stain for this purpose is being investigated. David Garrett San Antonio ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Essex aircraft sets >> I have seen some aircraft sets advertised as containing 10 aircraft, while others supposedly come with 6 each. Are there many different packages available then? F6F (6 or 10) TBF (6 or 10) SB2C (6 or 10) B-25 (10) << It is a little confusing and the strategy is beyond me. All of them come with decals, but the price is different for either 6 (7.95) or 10 (12.95) aircraft. By far, the B-25 would be the best "deal" as it is the biggest airplane for the money (1.30 each vs 1.33) Here is the breakdown: TRP-6201 1/350 B25B Mitchell Aircraft Set for USS Hornet (10/Bx) $12.95 TRP-6202 1/350 F4F4 Wildcat Aircraft Set for USS Hornet (10/Bx) $12.95 TRP-6203 1/350 TBD1 Devastator Aircraft Set for USS Hornet (10/Bx) $12.95 TRP-6204 1/350 SBD3 Dauntless Aircraft Set for USS Hornet (10/Bx) $12.95 TRP-6210 1/35 Grumman F6F Hellcat Aircraft Set (6/Bx) $7.95 TRP-6211 1/350 Curtiss SB2C Helldiver Aorcraft Sety (6/Bx) $7.95 TRP-6212 1/350 Avenger TBF/TBM Avenger Aircraft Set (6/Bx) $7.95 James Corley AAA Hobby Supply ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: NedWriter Subject: naming carriers Hi, >> as for naming a carrier after a living president, or anybody living for that matter, I always thought it was taboo to do so. I always presumed to have your name used for a ship of any kind you had to qualify by 1. being dead 2. a famous supporter of the navy, or a military hero Personally I would like to se a famous name of past carriers like Wasp, Hornet, Yorktown, etc. << I confess to liking the tradition of naming current carriers against heroically-fought retired or sunk carriers of old. However, there are several ships named for living men, including the operational carrier USS Ronald Reagan. The Navy is currently building a nuclear attack sub, the USS Jimmy Carter (since Carter was a submariner, this seems like a good choice, or at least a better choice than a carrier). I think that Clinton should also be honored with a sub; like him, they go down ... Sorry. Ahem. Since Bush SR. was a naval aviator, I find the naming of a carrier in his honor a valid choice. I'd prefer to see a Hornet or an Essex return to the fleet (or even a Halsey), but I can see the logic of naming it for Bush Sr. Especially if you're in the Navy and trying to curry favor with the current President. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "John Rule" Subject: Hornet kit >> I haven't seen the kit for myself, at least two vendors had the kit at the IPMS Lier show, here in Belgium, this weekend. Unfortunately, they were all sold out whan I arrived. Did have a talk with one who bought the kit. He had a big complaint for the underwater hull: the lines are, according to him, completely wrong, the hull being too wide, especially at the bow. According to him, about 10 cm from the bow, the hull is about 3 cm too wide! He compared the hull with the hull of a freighter instead of a warship! << Are you sure you have got your numbers right 10cm is approximately 4 inches and 3cm is approximately 1.2 inches. I would consider that a considerable error in width. Sincerely, John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Harwell, James R." Subject: big gun recoil I was a gunners mate on a fletcher class destroyer and with a five gun broadside - the movement was very noticeable - in fact the gun boss "walked" the firing sequence 1 thru 5. The recoil on a 5"-38 was established by the use of nitrogen gas - the gas would be bled off allowing the carriage to ease aft to the stops so work could be performed on the under carriage and then pressured up again to move carriage back to position and the breech locked in - when the gun was fired the gas compressed (to say the lest) and the carriage was forced forward to set for another round - one thing to remember when doing maintence on the carriage!!!!! dont use oxygen!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: NAVYDAZE Subject: Re: Accuracy I remember on the Hawk at one time we were looking for a way to get from our compartment below the mess decks to the aft head which meant we had to go up one level and cross the mess desk to shower or whatever. So we got this great idea and got out our set of blue prints in the deck office - well, they were fairly recent, but we kept finding things that were not there or were in the wrong place - I am sure this can happen topside also. Now, with that on the topic of accuracy I do not think any of use feel that we do or do not have to take plans as gospel. I cannot imagine any plans being 100% accurate for more than a couple of months or years for a particular ship's lifespan - there are always changes going on in a ships career - some of which can be "unauthorized". This all brings me back to points I have made before about enjoying the hobby and not getting so wrapped up in it that it becomes more of a stress than an enjoyment. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to produce histories and plans of ships. Since accuracy is not such a big thing to me I will most likely use them without question. As I have said, my "fleet" is for my enjoyment, not anyone elses. Lighten up all - you will live longer and can enjoy modelling more. Mike NAVYDAZE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: DRAYTON as Re: BB paint schemes at Pearl Harbor >> So when I looked at the book Warships Illustrated No.10 US NAVY IN WW2 1941-2 on page 17 shows in a color photo the Drayton DD-366 in fresh coat of 5-D Dark Gray for measure 1. << Whoa, wait a minute. I thought DRAYTON was the "Blue Beetle", one of the destroyers testing a very blue paint, possibly more blue than 5-S Sea Blue? Brooks A Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: URUDOFSKY Subject: Re: 1:1200 scale Rigging Paul Jacobs http://members.boardhost.com/jacobs1250/ has suggested that a nice set of rigging can be made from black paint brush bristles. This is excellent stuff and good advice. Take a look at his great 1:1250 web site. The very best at this miniature scale is done by photo-etching of the ratlines, blocks and lines. Models such as the 5 mast full-rigger PREUSSEN and the HMS VICTORY were made that way; in fact, an entire history of sailing from Phoenicia to Europe. These models were made by the exceptionally talented model maker Wilhelm Heinrich (very recently deceased) (see: Aus der Welt der kleinen Schiffe, Horst Krönke, Koehlers Verlagsgesellschaft, Hamburg, 1996, ISBN 3-7822-0648-7). This involves using Cr/Ni sheets of 0.1 to 0.05 mm thickness. Nothing that an amateur could try to achieve. I think Heinrich was a computer chip maker. Ergo, find a friend in the business. On the other hand, surgeons with access to 6-0 stainless wire may be your best bet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "ebrown" Subject: WEM HMS Janus arrives An unexpected surprise. I thought it was a replacement handle for my Dyson/Hoover!!! Anyway into the box we go. The hull comes in two parts giving waterline and full hull options. The two pieces dry fit together well and its seems a pity to waste the lower hull but I prefer waterline. One detail on the forecastle surprised me but a quick referal to Chris Langtree's book confirmed their existance. There is a "deck plate" underneath the rear set of torpedo tubes (she is configured as 1940). This I suspect is to facilitate building other member's of the J/K/N Classes. The forward deck house is moulded with the upper hull. The aft deck house (again to facilitate others including the leaders with the longer aft deck house), bridge and funnel are moulded separately in resin. Other details are moulded in metal. There is a comprehensive brass including masts for early or late versions. Also there are decals for the pennant number but only for Janus. The instructions are, as usua from WEM, comprehensive. The mouldings are crisp and well detailed. When one includes the brass there is seems to be very little for me to do in the way of original work. The research is gifted with the Langtree book. Even the correct paints (colourcoats) are available - no more mixing. However this gem does demands my very best finishing skills to adequately do it justice. I really can't see myself being satisfied with just one of this kit even though I have several J&K's in 1/700ths. Even this 1/350th version takes up less space than a 1/700th carrier. If your thing is RN or destroyers in general this is a MUST. There is nothing two faced about this little baby. I am sure that those at WEM will be disappointed if I don't ask my usual question. When are we to get the long awaited Lance and Milne?? Edward Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: DLandolt Subject: Re: C-2 Greyhound Collect-Aire will be making a 1/48 scale C-2A sometime next year. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: BB's paint scheme @ Pearl Harbor >> OK, I don't wish to belabor the point, but what source says they were in measure 1? As for photos, I think the one below clearly shows lighter upper works on Maryland and West Virginia. You can clearly see the sailors on deck onboard Maryland in white uniform so sun or soot from fires isn't a factor...work with me on this, for a long time I thought they were all in haze grey also. << With all due respects, I don't think the photo you provided supports your conclusions. Lighting, weather, film type, printing variables, etc. can greatly affect how colors appear, especially on B&W film. I'm no expert on photo analysis, but I know that you cannot look at a single print of a single photo and come to the conclusions you support. Please look closely at the hundreds of PH photos available and you'll see a difference in how the colors on the ships appeared simply due to all the variables involved. According to your method of analysis, any photo could suggest a different paint scheme for any given ship (which of course can't be possible as the pictures are all on the same day). Also, be aware that there is official documentation and orders on the paint measure(s) worn by ships at this time which spell out that the battleships were indeed in Ms. 1 which did not include lighter upper works compared to the hull and also does not include haze grey anywhere. (I don't even think 'haze grey' is a color that was used during WWII. I believe it's a post war color). If you want details on the official sources, I suggest you contact someone at Synder & Short (who made the excellent paint chips) as they have done real research into this topic. They would also be able to fill in all the technical details about proper photo anaylsis. Best regards, Yohan Fernando ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Peter Crandall" Subject: Saipan and Vittorio Veneto I am intersted in scratchbuilding the CVL-48 Saipan in its WW2 configuration. I am also interested in scratchbuilding Vittorio Veneto in 1/350. I have not been able to find plans or adequate pictures on the internet. Does anyone have any advice or know where I could find plans for these ships? Thank You. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Angry Ensign" Subject: Attacks versus Constructive Criticism >> So, this is a hobby - please let me discuss it! << All I've ever read from you is negativity...it's obvious that YOUR hobby is far different from the the rest of the SMML subscribers. Build something, photograph it, and SHOW us. JH ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: FBustelo Subject: Model Accuracy Redux Darius, While I respect your right to discuss model accuracy on this and other forums, there is a fine line between criticism and attack and I think that you have crossed that line. ISW kits are not forbidden ground. When I ran my site and I did model reviews on a more regular basis, I would cleary point out particulars that I did not like in the model. In general, I found more that I liked than disliked in all cases and manufacturers. You have refused to answer my question - where are your models for us to view in awe? I am not the first to ask where the fruits of your wisdom and knowledge are for us to pass judgement on. You judge kits that you don't have in your possession to actually examine closely. I guess you expect us to deem you credible with your work sight unseen. My point is that you act and sound like an armchair quarterback (to those who do not follow American football - any critic who second guesses a teams performance but doesn't play the sport). You have the right to speak your mind but you really have no credibility in my eyes, just a vendetta against a particular companies product. I would cry foul if you behaved this way with any firm's product. So thank you for your feedback, now get off the soapbox and let us all agree to disagree and move on to build models, at least those of us who do. Getting of my soapbox. Felix ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: New WEM Website Well, all of Dave's hard work has paid off, and the new--SECURE--White Ensign Models website is up and running. Secure credit card ordering, and a much friendlier ordering method: shopping cart. Come have a look around--you just might find something you need! Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume