Subject: SMML VOL 2061 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 04:11:45 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: The World's Worst Warships 2: Re: James Cameron / Bismarck 3: Re: Totally Off Topic 4: Re: Lost Compartment 5: Liberty vs. Victory 6: Re: Liberty vs. Victory 7: Re: removing paint 8: Re: Removing paint from models 9: Re: worst warships 10: HMS Fylgia 11: Re: New Inquiry - Liberty and Victory ship differences 12: Joseph P. Kennedy 13: Re: HMS Agincourt 14: Re: Hornet CV-8 Bow 15: LANGLEY as ship name 16: 12 days of xmas song 17: Ship Drawings 18: Re: Rigging in 1/1200 scale 19: Re: Sub chaser hull numbers 20: Tiger/Daring colours 21: Re: PT-109 22: Re: Liberty vs Victory ships 23: Re: Liberty and Victory ships ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1: Re: category clarification -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Hornets Ship on Tuesday ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Sab1156 Subject: Re: The World's Worst Warships "The Worlds worst warships: I considered Mr. Preston a good naval historian,but I think this book has some problems. I actually did not read it, but good a preview in a book-catalog. The front picture shows the Bismarck! Even a non navy historian would agree,that a ship,that got so much hits and still did not sink, cannot be a failed design. His statements about the Graf Spee seems to miss the whole idea about this design (the same like the frigates of the Constitution type: Faster than the stronger ships and stronger than the faster ships! All in all,this book seems me not very good! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Sab1156 Subject: Re: James Cameron / Bismarck One part of the Bismarck report was for me really disturbing, it seems nobody else realized it: Mr.Cameron said,that job of the german capital ships, including Bismarck was to chase british merchant ships, sink them and kill their crews. Such an order was never given! As a matter of fact, at the funeral of Capt. Langsdorff, the graf Spee captain,all the captains of the ships she sank,were present, because during her raids,not one allied sailor got killed! D.Hartwig ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Mike Bartel Subject: Re: Totally Off Topic >> Sorry, but I thought I'd share this in the spirit of Christmas. For all those that remember Bob & Doug McKenzie, check out the following link to their 12 days of Christmas song for a chuckle. And for those who don't know them, it's a bit of Canadian culture (although some may suggest we should forget it!) so go and have a look. Anything you don't understand, feel free to ask me! http://aetherealforge.com/~aeon/humor/12days.html Oh ya, ignore the cheesy cartoon, the guys looked much more realistic! << The whole album 'Great White North' is a hoot. If you can find it, I can recommend it wholeheartedly, as I used to listen to it with my stepbrother when we were kids while I lived in Canada for a year. Incidentally, 'The Red Green Show' does a great job of carrying on the McKenzie Bros. tradition, too! Oh, and if you get a chance, check out the Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode where they riff the Canadian-made film, 'The Final Sacrifice'. Full of jokes about Canada, the episode also has a host segment with an original song singing Canada's praises. Not to be missed. Hopefully, I don't offend our Canadian SMMLies with these recommendations, but Canadians have also always been great sports when it comes to poking fun about themselves. Mike Bartel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Mike Petersen Subject: Re: Lost Compartment >> I heard the lost compartment was a gym/weight room aboard the Enterprise CVAN-65. I picked this sea story up in DASH school, spring of 1968 in Dam Neck VA. Heard it repeated a couple of years later on the Garcia as "a machine shop full of equipment on some carrier". << I also heard it was on Enterprise. Makes you wonder though if this is just an urban legend that has been altered as time passed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: cfrieden Subject: Liberty vs. Victory Liberty ships and Victory ships were both built during WWII. Liberty ship construction began prior to Pearl Harbor. These ships were an emergency no frills design based on a class of 60 ships that was being built in two yards for a British purchasing commission. The American shipbuilding industry was already at full capacity, so 18 emergency yards were constructed to build the Liberty ships (this number includes the two yards that first built the 60 British ships). The first Liberty ships took nearly a year to complete, but once they got in gear many yards were able to get construction time down to about a month. Later in the war some yards transitioned to Victory ships. The Victories were built with more modern features so they would be better suited to postwar use. I don’t have the Victory ship production numbers in front of me, but I think it was about 600 compared to the 2,710 Liberty ships that were completed during the war. As for the Buttner, Buckner, Rose, and Randall, more information on the names is needed to identify them for sure. Most Victory ships had Victory as the last word of their names while most Liberty ships were named after people. There were no Liberty ships named Buttner of Buckner. There were Liberty ships named the John Carter Rose, Uriah M. Rose, James R. Randall, Richard Randall, and Charles C. Randall. Regards, Chris Friedenbach Crewmember SS Jeremiah O’Brien ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: ALROSS2 Subject: Re: Liberty vs. Victory >> Where the Buttner and the Buckner, and the Rose and the Randall L's or V's or neither? << Are you talking about naval or merchant? RANDALL (APA 224) was a VC2-S-AP5, a VICTORY. I found no mention of the other three in several editions of Fahey's "The Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet" nor on www.navsource.org listings of AK/AKA and AP/APA types. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Bud Link" Subject: Re: removing paint I agree with Paul that there are lots of useful tips available from modelers of non-ship prototypes. Not every superb modeler builds ships. Other chemicals tried by modelers from time to time include automotive brake fluid and dedicated model paint-strip products. Many in the model railroad field, some time back, anyway, kept looking for that "secret sauce." Brake fluid sometimes works well, BUT! 1. It is generally kind of nasty. 2. Remember it absorbs moisture from the air and loses effectiveness; if it works for you, keep it in a sealed container for both stripping and storage. 3. It WILL attack styrene/other plastics but it is unpredictable [the fluid is absorbed and the plastic swells in direct proportion to the value and scarcity of the part]. I more often use a grit-blasting cabinet. The price of these little wonders has come down a lot in the last few years. I've been able to remove pad printing without seriously degrading the underlying paint on factory-decorated styrene models. Bud ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Gerry and Jana Radice" Subject: Re: Removing paint from models I always use mechanics hand cleaners I find it leaves no marks nor does it harm plastic in any way it cleans up easy and with some light rubbing takes paint off of even clear parts perfectly heck I have even totally repainted canopies after I messed em up looks good as new after ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: BECJPARKER Subject: Re: worst warships Either the Mary Rose or the Vasa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Michael Aono" Subject: HMS Fylgia Hello, I am attempting to scratch build a Swedish armored cruiser called the Fylgia. I have done the usual searches for ship plans like Floating Drydock, EBay and search engines but have only turned up one source from a guy named George Goff. I aquired plans from George Goff around Sept. 2000 and started building the hull using a plank on frame technique. When I was finished with the hull, it had an unusually large bulge midship that gave it a "pregnent" look. About a year later. I found some really great photos of the Fylgia on a website called Cruiser Operations - WW2 and discovered even more inaccuracies in the hull shape as well as inproper placement of some of the casemates. I am going to have start over with a new hull. Would anyone know what kind of research I can do to find plans with hull stations for this particular ship? Michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Art Herrick" Subject: Re: New Inquiry - Liberty and Victory ship differences Frankly Brown - on 13 Dec. you posted: >> There is no "shame" in not knowing something, the "shame" is in not rectifying that deficiency when it becomes apparent. Therefore I thank all the SMML people who have responded to my requests for information from time to time, and I hope that others have benefited from the information so freely given by SMML people. Now I have a new inquiry. What is the difference between a Liberty Ship and a Victory Ship? Sic 'em, SMML. << Franklyn, To answer your above inquiry, I first did a Web Search for "Victory ship" using the GOOGLE search engine, and came up with 52 pages of URLs on the subject : http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Victory+ship%22&btnG=Google+Search As a sample I picked the Fine Art Models site: http://www.fineartmodels.com/victory.htm The site contains a brief history of the Victory ships and their difference from the Liberty ships, as well as 16 pictures of FAM's models of a Victory ship in both their wartime livery and their post war livery as a C - Class freighter. Neat 1:96 models : http://www.fineartmodels.com/freighter.htm Next I did another Google search using "Liberty Ship" and came up with 82 pages of URLs on the subject : http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Liberty+ship%22&btnG=Google+Search Franklyn ..... will let you go through these 82 pages of URLS !! ... Have fun! ~{:-) If you have forgotten, you can reach me at addy: artships at cheshire dot net. ~{:-) Art Herrick Westmoreland, New Hampshire USA Member: Nautical Research Guild ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Richard Sweeney Subject: Joseph P. Kennedy To the two fine people who corrected me on the Branch of Service in Which Joseph P. Kennedy served, Thank You, and I apologise for my mistake. I also wish to clarify another statement I made, I did not mean that Naming the First Carrier after Samuel Pierpoint Langley was political, I ment that the US Air Force still maintaining that He built the first Successful powered aircraft into the 1980's, was politics. The United States Government put a good deal of support into the Aerodrome project, and was quite suprised when The Wright Brothers beat him to the punch. The Court marshal of Captain McVay would not be so onerous if he were not the only captain court marshalled for loosing his ship in a war zone. Rich Sweeney ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: MGFoster Subject: Re: HMS Agincourt Darshan Ward wrote: >> Punching in The+Marine+Engineer hoping that perhaps somewhere there may be back issues, extracts or resources. Needless to say I came up 344,000 ... << I tried looking in Google for "The Marine Engineer." Got about 27 returns (use the beginning and ending quotes to search for a grouping of words that you want to be considered one item). There was a mag in '20's and '30's called "The Marine Engineer & Motorship Builder." This may be the mag Jane's was referring to. Since this mag was published in 1919, it may be very hard to get info on it. Try some large libraries. Call their periodical departments. In US I'd try NY Public library & Library of Congress. Other countries, similar large institutions. HTH, MGFoster:::mgf Oakland, CA (USA) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Sanartjam Subject: Re: Hornet CV-8 Bow Hi Keith, Regarding your post about the bow of the Trumpeter Hornet, I think this is the second post I've seen questioning the hull shape of the Trumpeter kit. Out of curiosity, does the bow of the Trumpeter kit look anything like the bow of the Blue Water Navy kits of the Enterprise, Hornet and Yorktown? I wonder if that's where Trumpeter got the hull shape for their kit. Along the same lines, is the bow/hull shape correct on the old Revell 1/480 kits of these carriers? Art Nicholson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: PaulShip37 Subject: LANGLEY as ship name The US Navy honored several of the early aviators with ships named after them. USS WRIGHT and USS CURTIS, I believe there was an USS ELY, too.... (I'm not sure who PATOKA was, come to think of it... ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Don Macdonald" Subject: 12 days of xmas song GOOD job even my wife like it, Thank you for going off topic for once and have a good one yourselfs. From your Portland Rustbuckket just down south of ya Don ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Ken LeClair Subject: Ship Drawings Hello All, I need drawings of the USS JFK, could anyone help me with info on where I can get such plans, or for any US carrier. Regards Ken LeClair HMCS Protecteur ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Rigging in 1/1200 scale Dan wrote: >> - You said you use plastic sprue to rig; what diameter? I have some 0.035inch / 0.88mm stuff from Evergreen Scale Models, but it looks too big (by about double!). << Dan, What I had in mind was taking the plastic runner (or "sprue") that plastic kit parts are attached to, and holding a length over a candle and stretching it when the plastic softens. If you're not familiar with the process, I think there are several places where it is discussed. It is a procedure that improves with practice. And it allows you to use different color plastic without the additional thickness added by painting the material. The plastic sprue I use for upper rigging is ~ .004". My hair is ~.002", for comparison. And the rest of you - please let this not start another thread about using you cat's hair or whiskers for rigging! Let Tabby have a peaceful holiday season! Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Sub chaser hull numbers Franklyn wrote: >> In my case, I consider PC to be Patrol Craft, capable of larger roles due to their size etc., even though sub hunting may be part of their duties. << It seems the PC was the preferred follow-on design to the WW1 SC. The 110ft. boats were considered too limited, so a 165 ft. steel hulled design competition was held. In spite of the PC designation, PC 449 and PC 450 were updated versions of the WW1 SC, a concept favored by FDR, though not the Navy. The 110 ft, designs were not able to make the desired 22 knot speed with the engines then available, and the design languished until the advent of the GM "Pancake" diesel. With these engines and a slightly redesigned hull, the WW2 version of the SC was born. Ironically, production problems with the Pancake diesel led to many SC being built with straight-eight diesels, heavier and less powerful, for a speed of only 16 knots--the same as the earlier, unsatisfactory designs. PC 451 was the leading design in the 165 ft. competition. PC 452 was virtually identical to the as-built PCs, but with an experimental steam turbine plant. PC 451 could not support additional AA desired in the production design, so the hull of PC 452 was married to the diesels of PC 451. The 136ft. PCS was a subchaser conversion of the YMS minesweeper, which was a minesweeper derivative of the PC 450 design. The YMS came out beamier, longer and heavier. What goes around, comes around. >> Yes, Edd, I am aware of the prototype boats you mention. But were they commissioned vessels, or were they more in the nature of XPC? << As far as I can tell PC 449-451 all served in active duty. PC 452 was mainly a trials ship, due to its powerplant. >> I didn't know about SC numbers having been assigned to converted yachts. Can you please advise the numbers so used? << The text lists PC 454-60, PC 509-510, PC 523 and PC 826 as converted yachts. The appendix lists all but PC 826 as "SC"s. In addition, 8 Canadian Fairmile Bs were acquired under reverse lend-lease and assigned PC 1466-1473 (again "SC" in the appendix.) All this info is from Friedman's "Small Combatants." >> Although the numbers in the movie were PC numbers, I believe the movie makers called them SC591, 2, and 3, thus making them fictitious. Yes? << Yes. At the time the movie was made (1939?) neither the PC nor the WW2 version of the SC existed. >> But remember, I hold that Henry Ford stopped making automobiles when he made the last Model A in 1931, and that no other manufacturer ever made an automobile, even though Henry had shown them how in 1928 (guess what my other passion is). << Interestingly, Ford built the WW1 "Eagle" boat, a 200 footer also classed as a subchaser. None were ready by the end of the war, however. AFAIR, the River Rouge plant was built for this project. >> Ain't SMML grand? << Yes, it certainly is! Edd ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: chrisquirk Subject: Tiger/Daring colours Hi Just about to start on the Airfix Tiger/Daring, could anyone point me to the correct grey, Humbrol if possible, to use, the instructions quote no 27, but that is certainly way to dark. Nice to see these again, hope the Leander/Amazon reappear as well. Regards Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Timothy Connelly" Subject: Re: PT-109 The book by the 105's skipper is a good narrative, but not a great book. Timothy Connelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: Liberty vs Victory ships >> A follow-up question (shows how dumb I am) please. Were the Liberty Ships of the WW1 era and the Victory Ships of the WW2 << No. The 'archetypical' US-built standard merchant ship of WWI was known as the 'Hog Islander'. On the point of identifying ships: Liberty Ships received person names, in general, although some Liberty hulls adapted for USN uses received other types of names. Victory ships were almost univerally named "something-or-other Victory". However, Victory ships formed the basis of a class of USN attack transports in WWII, as well. Brooks A Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Michael London" Subject: Re: Liberty and Victory ships To answer some queries. Liberty ships were a WW2 wartime expedient to replace the large amount of tonnage lost to enemy action, mines, accident and the normal hazards of the sea. 2,770 were built in US shipyards for a deadweight tonnage of over 29 million tons. Simple in design they were of all-welded construction and adopted triple-expansion steam engines since turbines and diesels were needed for warships. They measured about 7,000 gross tons and had an overall speed of 11 knots. The design originated in Britain and was adopted for its simplicity. Victory ships were a development and were intended for post-war use since the Liberty ships were not expected to have a very long life (in actual fact many survived well into the post-war years). They were larger, sturdier and had turbine machinery giving them a speed of 16 knots. They had a gross tonnage of about 7,600 tons. The WW1 version of the Liberty was a series of multi-design standard ships given names with the prefix "War". These were built mainly in British yards althought some were built in the USA (by arrangement with an agent through the Shipping Controller) Canada, Japan and British yards in Shanghai and Hong Kong. Michael London ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR Subject: Re: category clarification >> I am seeking a bit of clarification from Rusty White and/or James Corley - the acting IPMS USA Head Ship Judge. I would like to ask for some clarification on the "Boat" category under the IPMS USA National rules. The category listing on the website states " *Boats, Speed Boats, Motor Torpedo Boats, Motor Patrol Boats -- 418. All entries". I have participated in several local ®ional contests in which the length of a "boat" was limited to 80 feet, ostensibly to limit an differentiate a PT boat (ie an 80 foot ELCO) from other craft. With the release of the Revell S-Boat it is easy to see that this length limit would have to change to 100 plus feet. Is there an upper limit in the length of a torpedo boat under the IPMS USA definition? The ultimate pre-World-War One torpedo boat in the US Navy inventory was 173 feet (Blakely-class). The early Torpedo Boat Destroyers (Bainbridge and Hopkins classes) were redesignated as Coastal Torpedo Boats (CTB) during WWI. These were approximately 250 feet in length. << No change to category 418. >> If it isn't a length limit, is there a mission differentiation? How is the mission of a Harbor Tug differentiated from that of a Fleet Tug under the rules? A CTB may have had the same mission as a TBD, but due to the advances of the fleet's capabilitites, it did not have the range or speed necessary to accompany the fleet in Blue Water operations. Would a model of the Bainbridge (TBD-1) entered as a pre-WWI ship would be categorized as a ship, while the exact same model, entered as WWI era CTB-1 be classified as a torpedo boat? << In the event such a "dual category" model was entered, it would be up to the modeler to decide which category you want the model in. We don't want to be iron fisted in these situations so we let the modeler decide. As long as it's reasonable request for placement, I try to give the modeler as much lee way as I can. However, the model could be recategorized in the event of a split, or if enough of the category judges can convince me it should be moved. Hope I didn't muddy the water any more for you Ed. Rusty White IPMS/USA #20181 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "shaya" Subject: Hornets Ship on Tuesday All SMMLers that ordered the 1/350 Hornet your ship goes out on Tuesday to you. Happy holidays. Shaya Novak Naval Base Hobbies www.modelshipbuilding.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume