Subject: SMML VOL 2064 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:19:17 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: D&S Enterprise book 2: To ban or not to ban........ 3: Re: Accuracy of the condemnation ...... 4: heller kit 5: Re: Darius and Iron Shipwrights 6: Re: Painting the Tirpitz 7: ship paint striping 8: Darius vs. ISW 9: Re: P vs W 10: BISMARK 11: Re: Hornet CV 8 12: Oath 13: HMS Puncher website 14: The World's Worst Warships ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information 1: Re: John Barnhum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Trumpeter HORNET ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR Subject: Re: D&S Enterprise book >> There is an unused copy of Detail and Scale for the U.S.S. Enterprise (CVN-65) at the Chino Air Museum in SoCal. I know these are hard to find. They had two copies until I bought one last week. << A friend of mine has a number of copies of the D&S Enterprise book he's willing to sell. If anyone's interested, here's his email. AVHistory@aol.com Rusty White IPMS/USA #20181 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Cisco Academy" Subject: To ban or not to ban........ Mr. Butterball wrote, >> Shane ban this person from the list, while you're at it, ban Drage as well << Oooooooh......we are in good Christmas spirit!!! Now Keith, this is the season of GOOD WILL to all men, including Drages. We all wish you and the family the very best! Regards, Chris Drage ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Accuracy of the condemnation ...... Ok Jon, the whole discussion seems to be reduced to the question of the date of drawings published in "Warship" XV and the date of the drawings that you have used. Even if, as you say, they are of 1917 vintage, I still see no major problem. According to Musicant there was no 1917 refit or reconstruction. There was one in 1899 (elecrical & communication systems), 1901 (new 5inch gun mounts), 1902 (machinery overhaul), 1902 again (hull repairs after grounding), 1909 (major refit, two stage ammo hoists fitted, electrical turning system for turrets, remaining torpedo tubes unshipped, flyning bridge, after bridge and bow scroll removed) and final refit in 1918. None of the refits affected main deck layout in any significant way and this is the main deck layout that I have been questioning. Which bring us to another important question: if indeed the original 1897 plans were "tossed" after 1917 ones were drawn, just what is your mysterious "another source" of the original 1897 plans??? Do you have an access to the lost knowledge of the ancients or do you mean a set obtained throu MarylandSilver. com???? I have a copy of that one, it does not include any main deck layout details what-so-ever!!! That's why I have chosen the drawings from "Warship" as my main references, at least they include details and they cross-reference with photographs!!! And talking about photographs: the one on page 69 of the Musicant's book. You look at it but apparently not close enough.... If you look throu the maginifying glass at the right side of the foto you surely would have spotted that after pedestal mount there is just a small windlass drum cut in haf by the photo edge, no second winch in sight!!! So the old same story again, all photographic evidence from late 1890s tallys fairy well with the plans published in "Warship" (whenever they were drawn) and I haven't yet seen a single photo which supports your claims. Would you care to produce one??? Regards Darius ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: RKilbou Subject: heller kit I am going to re-enter my favorite hobby from over 30 years ago. I've narrowed my choices down to the Heller models of the Bismark or Hood. I would also like to include a PE set. What's the difference in them? I;m looking at either Toms Model works or WEM. I've joined this list a year ago and have enjoyed the many discussions on it .Please help me decide on the model and Pe set. Thanks Bob ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Darius and Iron Shipwrights Dear Sir, I have never questioned professionalism of Jon or Ted and even if I sometimes criticise accuracy of their models let me put things in a perspective here. Since wrong impression might have been created by some of the posters here let me state that out of a very large number of models produced by ISW I have ever made critical remarques about only TWO. Does this really sound like a "vendetta" or a "hidden agenda" to you??? Just two models among so many others!!! And this is my true problem with ISW, I have heard that they are both very nice people to know (and I can well believe it) but they are not prepared to take any criticism about their work at all!!! For them it appear to be no such thing as "constructive criticism" there are only "vendettas" and "outright attacks"!!! With the power of the Internet in mind I have proposed in the past that it might be a good if that resin producers would consulted more videly BEFORE releasing a new product. There are plenty of people with information and references out there which can be consulted quickly via the computer. That way all the potential problems could be ironed out beforehand and in private. Some resin producer are taking this route already (IHP, YS Masterpieces) but others come up with all sorts of spurious excuses as why it is impractical, uneconomical and silly!!! If I can't see a model before its final, production, version is put into the public domain I can only comment on what I see and by than it is much to late to do anything about it. Pity but there it is... Still, I provide only an information and what people do with it is fully up to them. They can buy a kit and build it "out of the box", they can buy it and correct it or they can decide that that particular kit is not for them. But at least they are informed about what they find once they open the box. Regards Darius ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Daniel Bauer" Subject: Re: Painting the Tirpitz Hello, You need to be more specfic on which paint scheme you are wanting? Tirpitz had more than one scheme during it's career. She even had different schemes during her time up in Norway. Regards, Dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Don Macdonald" Subject: ship paint striping Hey all I am working or trying to rebuild one of the old Mississippi River boat. it is one of the older wooden boats, it is called the Mississippi, Quene (OK I may have that last word spelled wrong ;-) All of the wood was in bad shap ,..I was able to replace all of the main wood All of the metal eatch parts. were painted with some old paint . So I took a chance and took the boards advice in stripping paint, By soaking parts in some 409 HEY IT DOSE WORK, !!!!!!! rustbucket . This will save me a few bucks in not having to replace a lot of old painted parts and it will look like new when I am done Good job and advice. Thank you so much for putting that advice on the board Don That Portland Rustbucket ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Jeff Herne, NJAHOF" Subject: Darius vs. ISW Without going off the deep end...I've found errors in ISW kits...and BWN, and Classic, and Combrig, and WEM, and Waveline, and Tom's, and Tamiya, and Aoshima, and Pit-Road, Trumpeter, ICM, and on and on and on....no one's kits are perfect, period. Darius, get a life and get over it. Move on...because aside from you, no one really cares, all you're doing is taking up bandwidth and ticking people off. We're tired of hearing about this... Jon has repeatedly cited his sources and attempted to explain this to you. He's even conceded that he missed a detail...big deal...I'm still going to buy the kit, regardless of your tirade about its inaccuracies and faults. It's a shame that he has to spend his time defending himself against your attacks. This thread has become a car crash...gruesome and ugly, yet, we're still drawn to it and stand around like gape-mouthed idiots watching it unfurl. Can we PLEASE move on??? Jeff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: WRPRESSINC Subject: Re: P vs W Everytime that I think that P has gotten W on the ropes, by God the latter comes back with a great counter attack. This is certain to go the full fifteen rounds, and W has gotten more publicity than he could have ever have dreamed of. Wait a minute, I have an idea, when the Essex kit from Trumpeter arrives in early next year, everybody should rush out and buy the Book on Essex Class Carriers by Glenn Arnold in the Warship Perspectives series. In the back of the book is a set of fold -out plans to 1/350 scale of the Essex. Think of the arguments that will follow when comparing one with the other; great for business. This is definately not a commercial. PS This book is available from many dealers world wide. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "DUCKMAN" Subject: BISMARK Hi all, My thoughts on an old thread. Bismark was a Warship. Lancasters were Warplanes! U-Boats were Warships! The use of any of these weapons involves the death of civilians. Does this make the German Navy guilty of fighting a dishonorable war as implied by Cameron? Me thinks not, but, Oh yes, to the victor and all that crap. I did find the program most enjoyable, with the exception of the dialogue. David in Dixie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Tom & Carolyn Harrison" Subject: Re: Hornet CV 8 >> I just picked up the bloody thing. Looks pretty good except for that bow. Wow is it a mess, reminds me of and old tanker long before they put the bulbous bows on them. I already glued the two halves together then I will proceed to fill the bow with resin and hog away till it is correct with the body plan I have of Hornet from the National Archives. Also the hull sides are flat where on the real class they flared out as they went up to the hanger. I'll leave this alone. But like I said, it isn't bad other then the bow. << In response to Keith Benders comments on the Trumpeter Hornet kits bulbous bow, as he called it. Keith also indicated he had body plans of the Hornet from the National Archives. Keith if you willing to share this information with others by supplying me with documentation showing the correct shape, a description of how you corrected the bows shape, possible with templates, I will make copies and supply them at not charge to fellow modelers interested in making this correction. Tom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Keith Butterley Subject: Oath Oath of Enlistment All persons, upon entering Military Service and upon reenlistment, are required to take the Oath of Enlistment. At one time, the Oath of Enlistment was the same for all services. Due to changes in both society and the differing Military Branches, the Oath has undergone marked change and has been specifically tailored to each branch of the Military and their specific function. Here are the latest versions of the Oath of Enlistment as recently released by the Chiefs of Staff: CANADIAN AIR FORCE OATH OF ENLISTMENT "I, (State your name), swear to sign away 5 years of my life to the CANADIAN AIR FORCE because I know I couldn't hack it in the Army and they frighten me, and because I am afraid of water over waist-deep. I swear to sit behind a desk. I also swear not to do any form of real exercise, but promise to defend our bike-riding test as a valid form of exercise. I promise to walk around calling everyone by their first name because I find it amusing to annoy the other services. I will have a better quality of life than those around me and will, at all times, be sure to make them aware of that fact. After completion of "Basic Training", I will be a lean, mean, donut-eating, Lazy-Boy sitting, civilian-wearing-blue-clothes, Chair-borne Ranger. I will believe I am superior to all others and will make an effort to clean the knife before stabbing the next person in the back. I will annoy those around me, and will go home early every day. So Help Me God! " ____________________ Signature ____________________ Date CANADIAN ARMY OATH OF ENLISTMENT "I, Rambo, swear to sign away 5 years of my mediocre life to the CANADIAN ARMY because I couldn't score high enough to get into the Air Force, I'm not tough enough for the Navy and they won't take me because I can't swim. I will wear camouflage every day and tuck my trousers into my boots because I can't figure out how to use blousing straps. I promise to wear my uniform 24 hours a day even when I have a date. I will continue to tell myself that I am a fierce killing machine because my Drill Sergeant told me I am, despite the fact that the only action I will see is a Court-Martial for sexual harassment. I acknowledge the fact that I will make SGT in my first year of service, and vow to maintain that it is because I scored perfect on my PT test. After completion of my Sexual.....er.....I mean "Basic Training," I will attend a different Army school every other month and return knowing less than I did when I left. On my first trip home after Boot Camp, I will walk around like I am cool and propose to my 9th grade sweetheart. I will make my wife stay home because if I let her out she might leave me for a better-looking Air Force guy. Should she leave me twelve times, I will continue to take her back. While at work, I will maintain a look of knowledge while getting absolutely nothing accomplished. I will arrive to work every day at 1000 hrs because of morning PT and leave everyday at 1300 to report back to "COMPANY." I understand that I will undergo no training whatsoever that will help me get a job upon separation, and will end up working construction with my friends from high school. I will brag to everyone about the Army giving me $30,000 for college, but will be unable to use it because I can't pass a placement exam. So Help Me God! " ____________________ Signature _____________________ Date CANADIAN NAVY OATH OF ENLISTMENT "I, Top Gun, in lieu of going to prison, swear to sign away 5 years of my life to the CANADIAN NAVY, because I want to hang out with sailors, because I thought the Air Force was too "corporate, because I didn't want to actually live in dirt like the Army, and because I thought, "Hey, I like to swim...why not?" I promise to wear clothes that went out of style in 1876 and to have my name stenciled on the butt of every pair of pants I own. I understand that I will be mistaken for the Good Humor Man during summer, and for Nazi Waffen SS during the winter. I will strive to use a different language than the rest of the English-speaking world, using words like "deck, bulkhead, cover, scuttlebutt, scuttle and head," when I really mean "floor, wall, hat, rumour, hole in wall and toilet." I will take great pride in the fact that all Navy acronyms, rank, and insignia, and everything else for that matter, are completely different from the other services and make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I will muster, whatever that is, at 0700 every morning unless I am buddy-buddy with the Chief, in which case I will show up around 0930. I vow to hone my coffee cup-handling skills to the point that I can stand up in a kayak being tossed around in a typhoon, and still not spill a drop. I consent to being promoted and subsequently busted at least twice per fiscal year. I realize that, once selected for Chief, I am required to submit myself to the sick, and quite possibly illegal, whims of my newfound "colleagues." So Help Me Neptune! " ____________________ Signature ____________________ Date ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Keith Butterley Subject: HMS Puncher website http://www.underthecat.com/puncher.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Robert Hernandez" Subject: The World's Worst Warships Hello Sab1156, As to your comments below: >> The Worlds worst warships: I considered Mr. Preston a good naval historian, but I think this book has some problems. I actually did not read it, but good a preview in a book-catalog. The front picture shows the Bismarck! << I am not surprised at your findings, as Preston is well known for his bias and exaggerations of certain ships flaws that seems to be along nationalistic lines. I would not waste my money on his books. Best regards, Robert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model club & SMMLcon Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Leslie Brown" Subject: Re: John Barnhum John Visited your website and the models look very good. Are they 1:600 or 1:700 scale? Ever thought of writing a few words for our Small Warship SIG newsletter (see www.brown.abelgratis.co.uk)? I would love to hear from you. Regards Les Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Trumpeter HORNET Our quantity shipment of HORNET kits arrived today, and will be shipping tomorrow. Pre-orders will take priority, of course, but we have plenty to spread around. Price is £68.04 (£79.95 UK/EU). We also have the extra aircraft sets, priced at £7.65 (£8.99 EU/UK). The kit painting instructions call for Gunze Mr. Color, which of course will just be approximations and not correct. So you'll also be able to get the correct paints here in our Colourcoats enamels: US05 5-H Haze Gray, US06 5-O Ocean Gray, US08 20-B Deck Blue, US10 5-N Navy Blue (which you can also use for the Norfolk 250-N Flight Deck Stain), C02 Matt Black, and US14 Norfolk 65-A Antifouling Red (if you're building her full-hull). We also have the correct paints for the Navy aircraft: ACUS05 Light Gray, and ACUS06 Blue-Gray. Our measured-to-fit photoetch set for the ship, PE3525, will be along shortly and will be priced at £27.66 (£32.50 UK/EU). In the meantime, we have photoetch sets available right now for the Navy aircraft: PE 3530 for the F4F Wildcat; PE 3531 for the TBD Devastator; PE 3532 for the SBD Dauntless. Each set will do 10 aircraft, and each set is priced at £2.12 (£2.49 UK/EU). PE 3533 for the B-25 Mitchell will follow soon. You can pre-order the ship photoetch and the B-25 photoetch right now. Step right up and get 'em while they're hot. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume