Subject: SMML VOL 2066 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:55:04 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: WEM Aircraft PE set 2: midget submarine update 3: Laconia Order, Civilians and crews of sunken ships 4: USS Kennedy 5: Nichimo and other U-Boats 6: Re: PT-109 7: World's Worst Warships 8: Potential WEM Update of Revell PT-109? 9: Worst? 10: Re: Nichimo Submarines 11: Re: World's Worst 12: Re: WEM Hornet 13: Re: James Cameron / Bismarck 14: Re: Preston Book 15: Sub Kit recommendations 16: USS Anchorage 17: HMS Manchester 18: Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all of you! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: New WEM Goodies ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: WEM Aircraft PE set Sorry Devin, no interior details: correct props, arrestor hooks, landing gear, split perforated dive brakes, etc. Each set contains enough for 10 aircraft. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Burl Burlingame Subject: midget submarine update There's a Star-Bulletin update on the Pearl Harbor midget submarine at http://starbulletin.com/2002/12/16/news/story10.html I'm trying to keep track of such stories at the site at http://www.pacifichistory.net/AFPHFILE/AFPH.HTML aloha BB ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Laconia Order, Civilians and crews of sunken ships Propaganda seems to play a major role in the perception of warfare on the seas....truth is, the Americans were just as guilty of practicing unrestricted submarine warfare as the Germans were, the only difference is that the US won the war. Mush Morton actually got the Navy Cross for machine gunning Japanese sailors and infantrymen from one of his sinkings...is it right? God no...but it's war...and lots of cruel nasty things happen in wartime. The perception that German U-boats (and surface units) machine gunned survivors is pure propaganda. I firmly believe that the Kriegsmarine (all politics aside) operated with as much integrity as they could under the circumstances. There are always exceptions to the rules though. There were hundreds of cases of German submarines not rendering assistance to survivors. The Laconia Order was the cause of this. There was only one recorded instance of submarines killing survivors in the water (Eck). In the case of the Laconia, it clearly shows that the German Navy did actually treat their enemies with compassion. I can't remember who said it, but someone once said that, 'on-board ships they are your enemies, but once you sink them, they become sailors in need of assistance.' The Laconia was torpedoed between Acension Island and Freetown, Africa. U-156 (Hartenstein) surfaced to find that the ship had Italian POWs on board, who were now in the water with the British sailors. He sent a radio transmission on open frequency for all U-boats to assist, and flew a red cross flag, transmitting that he would not attack any vessel that assisted in the rescue of survivors. Several subs arrived on the scene, but the rescue operation was attacked by a USN Liberator. This forced the subs under and put alot of men back into the water. Neutral French ships from Dakar arrived on the scene and pulled the majority of the men from the water. Of the 1800 that went into the water, 1500 were rescued, but it angered Donitz that his commanders put their boats in danger, so he released the Laconia Order. Some may argue that Hartenstien's compassion was because Italian POWs were in the water, but the vast majority of the RN sailors were also rescued... Eck, by the way, was excuted after the war for his machine gunning of sailors in the water. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: NedWriter Subject: USS Kennedy >> The eldest of the Kennedy males, served in the Army Air Corps, died when a experimental piloted/radio controlled bomb he was flying blew up prematurely. << Though he was killed while flying a B-24, LT Joe Kennedy was in fact a naval aviator, not AAC (or AAF as it was known by that time) and received a posthumous Navy Cross and Air Medal in addition to being honored by the destroyer commissioned in 1946. << Not only that but Joe Jr. was involved in something truly heroic. It was a B-17, not a B-24, and here's what it was. A "war weary" B-17 was modified with radio control and packed with roughly 20,000 pounds of very high explosives. The pilot (Kennedy) was to take the plane off and get it flying in the right direction, and confirm that it was under active radio control. Then he was to bail out (over England) then the radio-controlled bomb-bomber was to be flown to a critical and well-defended target and kamikaze'd into the target. To facilitate this, the roof of the cockpit had been removed - the plane looked like a "convertable". I don't recall the target(s) intended (or if there were any - or if this was just a new system being tested - seems this would have been a good weapon to target on Tirpitz (since Kennedy was Navy)) but that's just a guess, not a memory of facts previously read. Anyway, Joe Jr. took the plane off and was getting ready to bail when the damned thing exploded. Several test ships did that (I don't recall why). It took a real gutsy guy to fly this damned thing on a test (all test pilots are, by definition, gutsy - but flying an aerial bomb with a tempermental history is especially gutsy). He earned his ship, IMO. Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: rdauteuil Subject: Nichimo and other U-Boats Why hasn't anybody suggested the 1/35 scale U-Boat? I forget the manufacturer, but I saw the kit in a store recently. The box (actually a wooden crate) was stood on end, and it was around 6 or 7 feet tall. Now THERE'S a project! What a diorama it would make, perhaps with some Italeri Opel Blitz trucks dockside, and all that armor detail available!!!!! Now if I could only find $1800 to spare. I have a bunch of U-Boats from various manufacturers. I think the Nichimo U511 (Type X???) 1/200 scale U-Boat is probably the nicest. While I haven't tried to compare it to any plans to determine accuracy, it certainly looks good to me. Nice crisp moldings, recessed features, and if I recall correctly, the choice of 2 different conning towers. It even has a couple of small figures. Personally, it's one of those models I won't sell, because I know I want to build it eventually. I also have the Revell full hull U47 (recent issue) which looks good, and is well proportioned. But I don't think the molds have the crispness of the Nichimo boat. This is 1/125 scale, and while I won't argue that it's out of production, I've seen it in many stores. The Heller 1/400 scale U-Boat and Monogram 1/180??? are OK too, as is the Hasegawa 1/700. Just my 2 cents. Rod. (Hoping Santa brings a 1/350 Hornet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: NedWriter@ Subject: Re: PT-109 >> Just to set the record straight, Kennedy did not "allow" PT109 to be run over by that IJN destroyer. It is humbly suggested that one read any of the several accounts of the incident, including Robert Ballard's short article in the latest National Geographic, to achieve a good sense of what happened. << You're right in one sense, Franlyn. However, the Navy generally takes a different view - i.e., the Captain is responsible for any bad thing that happens to a ship. A very young Chester Nimitz (an Ensign, I think, but he could have been a very "fresh"-minted Lieutenant) put a destroyer on an uncharted sandbar in the PI - and was court-martialed for it (SOP). He was basically acquitted because of a really remarkable record he'd already racked up, but many a career was short-circuited by such a totally innocent event (recall that we'd had the PI for only a handful of years when Nimitz was their in the 19-oughts). SOP suggests that Kennedy should have been court-martialed, if only to be cleared. And, there were some problems with his patrol approach (engines off-line, etc.) that facilitated the collision. Though it was a dark night, there is at least some reason to believe that a PT on patrol LOOKING for a Jap destroyer might have been accepted to sight or hear the approach in time to dodge. A legit court martial (vs. a witch-hunt) might have established this for good and all. I have no doubt that Kennedy was a brave man; however, he might have been too relaxed a skipper for the mission (or not - we'll never know). This is somewhat akin to GHWBush's incident at ChiChi Jima - did he do all he could to make sure his crewmen were dead, or did he bail out in a funk? As the son of a powerful Senator, he might have been "excused" - or it could have all been totally legit. We'll never really know. In both cases, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I also acknowledge that there IS a doubt ... Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: NedWriter Subject: World's Worst Warships Darius asked - >> What was the world's worst warship according to Mr. Preston??? << For those in the Military Book Club, the answer is 'in the mail' - it's a featured offering this month. I can hardly wait. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: NedWriter Subject: Potential WEM Update of Revell PT-109? >> Also, I remember a question posed by someone at WEM as to interest in an update or conversion for the Revell 1/72 PT-109. Am I mistaken on this? It sure would be nice to have an Elco as nice as the S-Boot! << Let me throw in my $.02 (USD) worth here and say that I'd go so far as to pre-order and pre-pay for a set that gave us an accurate 1/72nd Elco 80-footer; and if it came with variations in armament and fittings (early war - mid-war, late-war, Pacific, Med, etc.) I'd order several - at least! Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: NedWriter Subject: Worst? >> On the subject of the worst ship, wasn't there a Swedish man o' war that capsized as soon as it was launched? Happy modelling << Sounds like my ex-wife ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Ray Mehlberger" Subject: Re: Nichimo Submarines I want to think the individuals that have given me some feedback, so far, on the accuracy/quality of the Nichimo 1/200th scale submarines. I only have one last question. Is there any PE sets available to go on these?? Ray Mehlberger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: NedWriter Subject: Re: World's Worst >> I am not surprised at your findings, as Preston is well known for his bias and exaggerations of certain ships flaws that seems to be along nationalistic lines. I would not waste my money on his books. << I take a somewhat contrarian view (which is why there are political parties - people can see things differently without being "right" or "wrong"). While I don't confuse Preston with a serious scholar, I find his books entertaining and informative; his opinions are clearly enough distinguished from his "facts" that I can make up my own mind. His books are well-written and generally very well-illustrated. I find them a value (and I often find them on the bargain table at B&N or Borders, making them even more appealing). When I see an Anthony Preston book, I know I'm getting something I'll enjoy reading. Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: NedWriter Subject: Re: WEM Hornet John What are your $USD prices (shipped to US) for the paints and accessories (planes, PE, etc.) for this ship. Also, please let me know if you can beat the likely US prices of the ship kit itself. You can post here or reach me at NedWriter@aol.com.. Thanks Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: James Cameron / Bismarck >> I have to back D.Hartwigs statement. There was no order to kill the crews. On the contrary, in addition to the example of the Graf Spee, i have read of numerous accounts, where subs either assisted sailors in actually tugging them along, or at least giving them directions to the next coastline, when this became too dangerous for the subs themselves. Sometimes it is too easy to get caught in propaganda, and maybe the reference quoted is from documents from the 40ies. I had an inquiry a while ago here, whether anyone had any reference of British sailors shooting German survivors during the operations around Norway. That was stated in a German account of that campaign printed in 1941. We can solidly assume that that book was not really well balanced, while it tried to give that impression. In any case, someone else said that in war civilians get killed. I guess very true, especially for WW II. Hundreds of thousands civilians lost their lives during bombing raids, on both (or all sides). Not too many old buildings in many German cities. London and many British cities can tell their story of the Battle of Britain as well. I guess the purpose to break the people was obvious here, with a clear intent on killing civilians and in some cases beyond the military necessity. Dresden and the second a-bomb would have not been exactly necessary. But that is my personal opinion. For the navy, I have only indications that most officers were gentlemen and tried to win a war, but not kill survivors. << IIRC admiral Dönitz did get convicted at the Neurenberg trials for giving the standing order to his submarine crews not to rescue survivors. This happened some time after the Bismarck episode. Rescueing survivors was an almost certain way for a relitively primitive submarine such as the ones used in WW2 to attract unwanted attention. This also applied to the american submarine crews destroying japanese merchant vessels and as far as I know they usually did not rescue survivors. Pieter Cornelissen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Preston Book Chris Amano-Langtree wrote: >> Secondly have a look at it before commenting - who knows it might introduce new lines of areas or research and the arguments presented might be worth considering. << Indeed. But why not try and compile a short list of nominees for the World Worst Warships award by SMML members??? Let's say maximum of 2 or 3 entries from each period??? By period I mean sail, sail/steam, late Victorian, WW I, mid-war, WW II and modern. Any member can choose one or more periods and provide short explanation as to why this particular subject was choosen. We can than compare our notes with conclusions of Mr.Preston and check for any possible matches. Regards Darius ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "bruce simard" Subject: Sub Kit recommendations Tom, You asked why I recommended the Amati and Revell kits of the U-boats. Trust me, I am neither an expert modeler, nor an expert on U-boats, I was just trying to help out another modeler. I agree that both have some problems, as do all kits. The Nichimo kits are very decent models, just older molds, that's all. Since I don't know the gentleman who asked, I have no idea if he does basic modelling, such as myself, or extremely accurate models. So my observations were basic, and just my opinions. Actually, I heartily agree with your assessment of the Mirage kits. That series has me more excited about the boats than anything else in the last few years, they keep getting better and better. Hopefully, the series will continue.......imagine a Type XIV, or Type XX ????? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Peter Subject: USS Anchorage >> DOES ANY ONE KNOW IF A MODEL OF THE USS ANCHORAGE LANDING SHIP DOCK HAS BEEN MADE LARGER THAN 1/700? I SERVED ON ONE OF THIS CLASS << I know of no large-scale Anchorage kit, but JAG Collective makes a very nice 1/700 scale kit. Here's a link to my build of the ship: http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/misc/amphib/700-anchorage-pv-bu/anchorage-pvb.html It is a good kit, and while maybe not the best place to start if you have not worked with resin and photoetch before, it is not so difficult that you couldn't make a pretty good model out of it even if it is your first resin kit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Catherine Cosby" Subject: HMS Manchester If anyone can locate a shop which still sells a 1:700 model of HMS MANCHESTER, TYPE 42 DESTROYER please could you contact me A.S.A.P. It is urgent and I am very desperate!!!!!!! MAX COSBY ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Friedrich Kappes Subject: Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all of you! Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all of you! Thank you for all the help I received this year!!! Friedrich The FriedrichFiles http://www.geocities.com/friedkappes/flagship.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: New WEM Goodies Well, the new WEM ultimate 1/350 Yamato/Musashi set is ready and should begin shipping next week. For a peek, take a look at: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/wembrass/wempe3528a.jpg http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/wembrass/wempe3528b.jpg That's 107 individual items, with multiples of many of these, relief-etched on two thicknesses of brass for a 2-fret set. Price is £27.66 (£32.50 UK/EU), shipped post-free worldwide. Also, a short time back we had requests for some of the items from our USN 1/350 kits. We're pleased to announce the release of: WEM Pro 3505, 1/350 USN 5"/54 single mounts from our Stoddert/Knox kits, available in sets of 2 mounts for £2.95 (£3.45 UK/EU), shipped post-free worldwide; WEM Pro 3506, 1/350 Phalanx CIWS, in sets of 2 for £2.95 (£3.45 UK/EU), shipped post-free worldwide; WEM FD 038, 1/350 Kaman Seasprite helo from our Knox kit, in sets of 2 with dedicated photoetch, priced at £7.62 (£8.95 UK/EU), shipped post-free worldwide. All items are of the high quality you've come to expect of WEM products. And, of course, we have the Trumpeter HORNET and aircraft sets in stock and shipping now. Best, John Snyder White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume