Subject: SMML VOL 2089 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:02:39 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Bugs 2: Re: Enterprise flight deck 3: Re: water & waves 4: IJN Tone 5: USS Cassin Young DD 793 6: USS Oriskany 7: Re: ENTERPRISE Flight Deck 8: Re: Colour Callouts for Tamiya Bismarck 9: Tan Ships 10: Re: Hornet B25s 11: Modeling again - finally (but does this count?) 12: Re: USS Oakland 13: Thanks Re KGV Colours 14: Re: Cockroaches 15: IJN Yamato Class 4th hull/turret armour 16: Purple Flight Decks? 17: Gunze Sangyo QE2 18: Fictional Ships (was: financial backing and the naming of ships) 19: Re: financial backing and the naming of ships 20: Re: Flight Decks 21: Air Force cockroaches 22: Re: On the whole tan deck subject 23: Re: Colour callouts for Tamiya Bismarck/Shell Welder PE/WW 2 Gato sub colors/BAINBRIDGE 24: Re: Hornet B25s/Revell Buckley 25: Re: Benjamin Stoddert kit one of the best EVER ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: PaulShip37 Subject: Re: Bugs Someone was speculating upon whether bugs/roaches were available to apply to scale models of ships.There was a common source for this, used extensively on wood ship models, known as "Shellac". (I suppose there are now a lot of people who are unaware of shellac and its origin.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: ken.p.lemaster Subject: Re: Enterprise flight deck The National Geographic article was in the early '60s and was shot during the Med cruise that was the 1st assignment for Enterprise. The photos do show a brown/tan color on the flight deck, my 1st impression when seeing the photos was a light shade of rust. The landing area was a different color. I do not have the issue in front of me or I would let you know the correct year/mo, but check the time of the 1st cruse and the fact that the Cuba missile crisis was her 2nd deployment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: andrew jones Subject: Re: water & waves I have used a product called Gel Medium by Matisse, its available in Australia & there are other companies that make a similar product ..its not runny or that gooy. First off i just smoothed a first layer to get a bit of a base, after letting that dry, i then smoothed a 2nd layer on & using a tooth pick, paint scraper & hobby knife, i managed to get a good (well for my first attempt) effect of waves. To get the wakes of the ship, as the 2nd layer was drying, I gently placed the ship (it was the 1/700 Shimikaze) in the drying gel, and using the tooth pick placed a drops of the gel & then sorta smoothed them out if they were too big (i didnt want the ship to look like it was going too fast) & if anything gets on your ship that you dont want, just scrap it off while its still wet (i think it is water clean up..if not if there is a smudge on your ship, just using a toth pick or fine brush, paint the stain over using the colour of the ship) ..as for the wake from the screws, i blobbed some more gel medium on & using a tooth pick & a knife & a mixture of the blue colour (of the sea) & a bit of WEM white gave a good ripple effect & then gave everything a covering of gloss .. It may not be as good as i have seen, but i was kinda happy with it..though no photos are on the SMML or APMA web, hopefully soon one day when i get around to taking photos or it will be going to 2 APMA display (Tamiya day & ship day) days this year, so there should be a photo of it taken at the club. regards Andrew Jones And Lorna , there was actually movement on the hobby table! so maybe a kit or 2 this year for comps? or was it just making room for something else to start?? lol ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Jeff Herne, NJAHOF" Subject: IJN Tone Anyone have any information on the 1/350 resin kit of the IJN Tone that's coming available in Japan? All I know is that she's 44,000 yen, which equates to about $365 dollars...but I'm still interested... Anyone have any intel? Regards, Jeff Herne www.ModelWarships.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Tom Lozzi Subject: USS Cassin Young DD 793 Hello.... Would appreciate any help getting in touch with any modellers have a completed USS Cassin Young DD 793. Thank you, everett25 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: GW Subject: USS Oriskany I've been trying to find out information about the USS Oriskany (CVA-34 when I happened to come on the http://smmlonline.com/reference/walkabouts/oriskany/oriskany.html while searching for informaion on the USS Oriskany. The pictures are fabulous! All I was able to find out that she was sold to a contractor for scrap and he defaulted so the ship is now for sale again for scrap. The last location I had was the Beaumont, TX at the Beaumont Reserve Fleet. I'm a Viet Nam Vet who served aboard the "O Boat" during two tours and have been with the Dept of Defense for 29ys. I would like to see and if possible board the ship once more before her demise. Do you know of anyone I could contact regarding see the ship? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for all of your work on the site, it's fabulous. Gary D. Way ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: annobon4 Subject: Re: ENTERPRISE Flight Deck Hi About the Enterprise's deck. Why is it brown when she was first built.There is a good chance that the steel armored flight deck was covered with polyurthane covered pressure treated hictory/plywood that had anti skid paint over on it. Then the flight deck markings. There are these items to confirm it. All US post war carriers had armored steel flight decks. The Franklin Roosevelt CVB-42 has a photo in Decal and Scale No.56 on the F4U Corsair on page 44 stating the wood deck had been removed over the armored flight deck in 1953. If after painting a steel deck how long did the flight markings last from take offs and landings? Perhaps this is the solution that the navy found it could make deck markings last. Also I have photos of the Coral Sea CV-43 with a worned out brownish flight deck. From the Essex class book by Naval Institute press on page 182-3 is a large drawing about the flight deck showing modernized Essex class carriers with steel, aluminium, and polyurthane covered wood was used. Those carriers had the same planes operating from them as the Enterprise except they didn't have the F4 Phamtom. What varied is the thickness of the Polyurthane applied to those matierals. Has any one ever seen a photo of the Enterprise or super carrier with rust from the armored flight deck?I haven't. Well I hope this is of help to you Steve. Craig ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Daniel Bauer" Subject: Re: Colour Callouts for Tamiya Bismarck Hello, As far as the actual final scheme of Bismarck, this has not been all together proven. I would first like to say the WEM now has a line of Kriegsmarine colours, so you can now have the actual colours used. The lower hull of Bismarck was dunkelgrau 51. The Baltic Scheme stripes painted on the superstructure were painted over before Bismarck left for Norway. The stripes on the hull were painted over while in Norway. The stern wave was painted out. The bow wave was retained. The dunkelgrau on bow and stern was painted over. The turrets were painted with dunkelgrau 2 tops. The superstructure was painted Hellgrau 50.The painting over of the bow and stern emblems is in question, some say they were covered over with tarps, others say they were painted over with dunkelgrau 2. The banners themselves are in question as to their colours, some say gray, some say red. There is also a question if the stern emblem was plain or with a banner. There is also a debate on the colour of the main and secondary turret top colours on the last two days of Bismarck, some say red, some say yellow, some say they stayed with the gray.I have been researching this very question for more than a year. In all truth, there is no actual documented final scheme of Bismarck. And the memories of the Vets are not in 100% in agreement either. Best Regards, Dan Bauer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: M Brown Subject: Tan Ships The comments about tan is interesting as the father of one of our members was on the working up and delivery voyage of HMAS Hobart which they picked up from Defoe in Michigan in 1965. His comment was that when they first boarded her she was all over a fawn/tan colour. They thought it was a USN Atlantic Fleet thing as she wasn't the only ship there in that colour scheme. Could it have been some sort of final undercoat they used before official handing over & giving the ship her "real paint job" or a strange way of indicating a ship had yet to be handed over to the new "owners"? The old RN way of flying the shipyard flag and red ensign sounds easier to me. I've asked his son if he can have a look through his Dad's photo albums. He might have taken shots of her. Michael Brown Task Force 72 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Edd Pflum Subject: Re: Hornet B25s >> Anybody know where I can purchase the extra B25s needed to make the trumpter Hornet kit match what she carried on the Doolittle raid...thank you << I saw some at Al's Hobby Shop here in Chicagoland just after Xmas. No carriers (Drat!), just the aircraft sets. Al' sells mail order. http://www.alshobbyshop.com/ Edd ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Modeling again - finally (but does this count?) I'm finally back at modeling - after too long a time - started at 4 a.m., watching my video of Victory at Sea and cutting/sanding plastic again. But does a pontoon bridge count? I mean, it floats. It has boat-shaped pontoons ... So, anybody got any sources on a WW-II/NE Europe/British/US pontoon bridge? Online would be nice - this isn't worth investing book bucks in Thanks Ned (once again the modeler) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: annobon4 Subject: Re: USS Oakland Hi About the USS Oakland CL-95 by Dragon. Orginially the kit was produced by Skywave and was one of three: Atlanta, San Deigo, and Oakland. The spare set provided is actually Skywave's first USN WW2 weapon set. They were sold along with the Sheffield class DDG's, Independence class CVL's, Ticonderoga class CG's, Perry class FFG's, and the Adams class DDG's to DML who became Dragon in the mid- 90's and Hong Kong was returned to Mainland China. For Bill Cody try contacting AAA hobbies in Magnolia NJ at 856-435-7645. They have the 1/350 B-25's on stock and they do mail order. Craig ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Stephen Varhegyi" Subject: Thanks Re KGV Colours Thanks Guys, You've all been very helpful. I got Alan Ravens RN 1939-41 Camouflage book today and compared the colour chips with the colour j-peg Dimi Apostolopoulos posted the other day. It appears to be a very close match with AP 507c rather than AP 507b. After reading a bit more, although I don't have any definite answer, I think I'm inclined to go for AP 507a for the horizontal surfaces, rather than the blue call out in the Tamiya instructions. The deck is puzzling though. I've got two people saying unpainted and two saying painted. Now I'm really confused. Does anyone have a more definite idea of KGV in May '41? Thanks Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Cockroaches Having opened the Pandora's Box about cockroaches, I guess I'll weigh in with a recollection of my own. Back on the mid twenties my father's ship was stationed in Panama, and my mother and I moved there for a while. I don't remember much about the experience, but I do recall that we had to live in civilian quarters, in a "flat" over a bar, just off the base. The bases of the bedsteads stood in large low-sided cans filled with water, and I think the outside of the cans were coated with thick grease. I was told that the cans were a sort of moat to deter cockroaches and ants from climbing up the bedposts and into the beds. After making the beds in the morning my mother always had to check to make sure was plenty of water in the cans, and the bedposts were not touching the sides of the cans. I also remember the productive thorough shaking out, over the bathtub, and inspection she gave everything that went into the suitcases and baggage when we packed up to come back to Massachusetts. The process was repeated when we unpacked in Boston. Now those experiences have lain dormant in my memory for over 75 years. I don't recall ever thinking about it until now, these recollections having been dredged up by the reading some of the SMML stories. How come I can remember the cockroach connection, but not what I had for lunch yesterday? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From Flt Hrbr Mstr RRN Subject: IJN Yamato Class 4th hull/turret armour Does anyone know if the fourth hull was given a name? Also I've heard/read that the secondary turrets where actually the original triple 6 inch ones off of the Mogami class cruisers. Therefore they would represent a fundemental weakness in the armour of the ship. ie the armour of the turrets was only up to cruiser battles, and in BB to BB gun duels, the 6 inch ammunition chain would have been very vunerable. Is this true? I used to do a lot of wargaming and that was quite the "issue" one evening many years ago, something about my battleship is better than yours...ah the "enthusiasm" of youth! Randy Alberta Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: james.kloek Subject: Purple Flight Decks? A recent posting mentioned that older color photos of flight decks appeared more reddish than the actual deck. What follows is a fairly technical explanation of what might be going on, so if you don't want to get into details of film building, stop here. In film, it is very fine particles of (mainly) silver bromide which capture the light. Silver, however, is only sensitive to blue light. To capture green and red light (and to do an efficient job with blue light too) the silver grains are sensitized with organic dyes. These dyes adsorb to the surface of the silver particles, absorb light at different wavelengths, convert the photons to electrons, and transfer the electrons to the silver, where they form a latent image. Up until the middle 90's the red dye in color negative films absorbed not only red light in the visible spectrum, but red light that was beyond the visible spectrum too. In other words the film "saw" red light that our eyes did not. It recorded this light, and when the film was developed and printed, this produced more visible red in the prints. So certain colors, especially blues, looked more red or purple than they really! were. In the mid 90's, Kodacolor was the first color negative film to deal with this problem by changing to what is called a "short red" sensitizing dye. This dye stops absorbing red where our eyes do, and thus the film renders much more true colors. So if photographs from the 70's and 80's have a reddish look to them, that might be the answer. On the other hand, it could have just been a poor job of color balancing the print, and had nothing to do with the negative itself. But that is a whole different story..... Just another example of how difficult it is to determine what colors "really" were from photographs. Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: Gunze Sangyo QE2 I saw a 1:450 Queen Elizabeth II in Japan the other day, with a Gunze Sangyo label on the box. Price discounted was 6000Yen, and it was on special for 5100Yen. Now, I have not heard of GS producing ships other than those excellent 1:1000 Myoko class cruisers. Is QE2 a Gunze Sangyo kit, or a rebox of a foreign make? If a rebox, what is the original maker, is the kit any good, is it in production, and what kind of price would it go for. I don't usually go for liners, but am prepared to make an exception :-) Cheers, Gernot ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: David Wells Subject: Fictional Ships (was: financial backing and the naming of ships) Randy wrote: >> Do you 1/700ish modellers out there know about all the extra parts that come with those kits? Remember I am new here. But what a very happy surprise when I discovered enough extra weapons for two more ships! I am just starting to get serious about scratchbuilding by creating some fictional ships, a lot of fun and way less "preasure". I was given a second kit of the,one of, Japanese Destroyer Shimakaze. Now I have no real problem with having two of a ship in the fleet, you can never have too many destroyers real or model, but I have decided to use some of those extra Dragon parts and address the historic weakness of IJN anti aircraft artillery. So I will soon be "launching" the "SABRIKAZI" (named in honor of my daughter,Sabrina). She (the ship not my daughter) will retain the powerful 15 tube Long Lance battery,but is being armed to the teeth with the best of American AAA and directors! << I do this sort of thing all the time, usually with "wrecks". Some of them have turned out to be quite interesting. Anyhow, these spare parts and the Skywave parts packs make it easy to make various "never built" ships, whether of ships that were actually planned or ships from my own sick imagination. I personally find it fairly easy to scratchbuild small hulls, so I can have fun just sticking weapons and directors on said hulls. Lots of fun to be had...... David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong| with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 |http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Timothy Dike Subject: Re: financial backing and the naming of ships >> Do you 1/700ish modellers out there know about all the extra parts that come with those kits? Remember I am new here. But what a very happy surprise when I discovered enough extra weapons for two more ships! << Hi Randy, Welcome to the hobby. Now that you have those extra parts, it is time to start stocking your spare parts box. this is essential for any 1/700 ship modeler. Don't throw anything away, even the sprues the parts come on can be useful for making parts. The kit you mentioned "USS Oakland" was originally produced as a Skywave kit (Pit-Road). They were well known for producing sprues of extra parts so they could use one mold to make many different kits. They later started producing weapons sets so we could replace the usually inaccurate and poorly shaped parts in our other kits. The Oakland includes two of what was originally called the Skywave E-6 weapons set packed with just about everything needed to build a USN ship. When Dragon bought the molds they added a special sprue with a lower hull option and an extra bridge for the late war Oakland. You can find a review of that kit as well as the weapons sets on ModelWarships.com. Timothy Dike Webmaster and Editor ModelWarships.com http://www.modelwarships.com/index1.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: spallen Subject: Re: Flight Decks IIR my Friedman correctly, the Midways did indeed have wooden planking on their flight decks as built. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Frank Stile" Subject: Air Force cockroaches The Navy didn't have exclusive domain over the cockroach. I was an Air Force blue suiter, stationed at Hickam AB, TH in 52/53. The chow was so bad, we looked forward to eating WWII K rations on Fridays. The 4 cigarettes were a bonus. One evening when getting off shift (and the end of the month when money ran out) we were having the Irish stew when the sergeant sitting across from me said " hey, look, some real meat". It was a monstrous cockroach swimming through the gravy. We didn't finish the meal. I did get to spend one week each aboard the USS President Jackson and the USS President Jefferson from Pearl Harbor to San Francisco. The navy chow was a great improvement and I didn't even get to see one vermin or varmint. On a more serious note, I Would like to add a 1/700 scale model of the President APA class to my collection, any suggestions will be appreciated. Frank Stile, Canyon Lake, Texas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Devin" Subject: Re: On the whole tan deck subject On my first ship, the USS Barney (DDG-6) we at times also appeared to have a tan tinted deck. It wasn't wood, but the dirt and sand that would collect in the nonskid, and the rust that would work it's way up from under the non-skid. Devin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Colour callouts for Tamiya Bismarck/Shell Welder PE/WW 2 Gato sub colors/BAINBRIDGE >> The top of the funnell was a lighter shade, possibly even white but more likely the original lighter gray, << No, the funnel cap was in "Aluminumbronze 16", a metallic paint used on funnel caps. In addition, the hull was painted Dunkelgrau 51 (Colourcoats KM02), the upperworks were painted Hellgrau 50 (Colourcoats KM01), and the steel decks were painted Dunkelgrau 2 (Colourcoats KM06). >> Subject: Re: Shell Welder Info Who, what ,where on the PE? << Atlantic Models (Peter Hall) PE for Shell Welder, available exclusively from WEM. >> I am doing a Gato class submarine model in Measure 32/3SS-B "Dark Gray Job" scheme. In my research vertical surfaces are light gray, medium gray,dark gray, and black. My question is what is the light gray supposed to be? Maybe 5L light gray or 5H haze gray or another? << Those are all late-war neutral grays. The light gray is #46 Outside Gray, the medium gray is #27 Outside Gray (the neutral Haze Gray), the dark gray is #11 Outside Gray (apparently used only on subs), and the black is Dull Black. If you want to match these colors you'll need the Snyder & Short USN Paint Chips Set 2 (at least until I get the time to mixes using Colourcoats Black and White). >> There is also an issue of NG with Operation sea orbit on the front cover and this shows USS BAINBRIDGE with a tan deck on the forward section of bow, did you ever see that John? << I've got that issue. Check your eye, Mate: that's red-lead on the foc'sl. Don't know whether they were repainting the foc'sl around the ground tackle (likely) ore experimenting with a Soviet-like deck red (unlikely!). Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: wem Subject: Re: Hornet B25s/Revell Buckley >> Anybody know where I can purchase the extra B25s needed to make the trumpter Hornet kit match what she carried on the Doolittle raid...thank you << Hi Bill, from us here at White Ensign Models, of course! >> Subject: Revell Buckley? Can anyone help me find one of these in any of its various boxings? << Hi Paul, try Kingkit at http://www.kingkit.co.uk Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Peter Subject: Re: Benjamin Stoddert kit one of the best EVER Thank you for the kind words Rusty, now you have me blushing too. I'm so glad you enjoyed the kit. All the best Peter Hall White Ensign Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume