Subject: SMML VOL 2100 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:48:40 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Mountbatten Pink and the Fifth Flotilla 2: Book review - Osprey German E-boats 1939 - 1945 3: Re: African Queen 4: Abercrombie 5: Re: Campbelltown 6: propeller diameter - thanks 7: A small world! 8: The fires in Australia 9: What new for 2003? 10: Re: Reuben James/Abercrombie/Passing History/St Nazaire Colour schemes 11: Pearl Harbor Crane Barge 12: GD Quincy Yard- Passing History 13: Holland Project - CD Supply Exhausted 14: Beginers 15: Cambeltown at St. Nazaire 16: Re: St Nazaire Colour schemes 17: Gowland & Gowland kits 18: VHS to DVD 19: Slightly OT - Forth Bridge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Dry transfer hull numbers 2: Regia Marina Re-stock 3: I need a 1/350 Resin kit of an old 4 stacker ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Chris and Kayo Amano-Langtree" Subject: Mountbatten Pink and the Fifth Flotilla Hi All In my book the Kelly's I stated that I had been unable to find any evidence of the use of the colour Mountbatten Pink by the Fifth destroyer flotilla. After publication I was contacted by a former member of the flotilla who provided me with details of its application, use and duration. Further conversations with Alan Raven clarified things even further. The colour seems to have been conceived by Lord Louis Mountbatten whilst escorting convoys during late 1939/early 1940. It is difficult to be sure exactly which convoys but it was probably the Norwegian convoys in early 1940. Mountbatten had noticed that the grey which the destroyers carried stood out (ADM 204/1109) and was looking for some colour which would provide some measure of concealment. He noticed that the mauve-pink hulls of Union-Castle liners were much more inconspicuous especially in dawn or dusk conditions and concluded that this could be the basis for a camouflage scheme. After several experiments he came up with a pink-grey paint that he felt would duplicate this effect. Various combinations were tried with different reds such as venetian red or red lead. However with the torpedoing of Kelly by an e-boat he was not to have the opportunity to try this colour out for a while. It should be noted that Mountbatten was a controversial officer who attracted both opposition and support. A lot of this was based on jealousy but much more was based on the fact that he wasn't a very good ship captain. His ship Kelly had already suffered several mishaps through his incompetence and he had a reputation as a Jonah in his flotilla. Senior officers also tended to be resistant to his ideas. With the e-boat incident, the 5th Flotilla was based on the Humber. Instructions were issued that Mountbatten was to command the flotilla from the County Hotel in Immingham. In other words he was to avoid going to sea (though how much effect this had is open to question). About this time he also started promoting his new camouflage paint but seems to have been stymied by Humber command. There seems to be very little evidence for the application of Mountbatten Pink to any ships of the fifth during this time. Practically all photos taken of the fifth show variations on the colour AP507B except for one of Javelin. This shows what appears to be AP507C light grey and initially I believed that this was the scheme. Further research leads me to conclude that it possibly shows Javelin in Mountbatten Pink. However, Javelin was shortly thereafter repainted in a dark hull, light upperworks scheme which she was torpedoed in. Alan Raven believes that the flotilla did receive Mountbatten Pink at this time but did not produce any evidence for this conclusion in our discussions. Anyway Mountbatten continued to promote his ideas to all who would listen and several others decided to try the colour for themselves being convinced by Mountbatten's arguments. The first of these ships to try Mountbatten Pink seems to have been Arethusa (mid 1940 Alan Raven, Camouflage Volume 1: Royal Navy 1939-1941). Others in her squadron may have been painted in this colour at the same time or slightly later (Aurora, Penelope and Galatea followed) and this would have been as a result of the Admiral commanding the squadron being sold on the idea. At this time there was no set formula for Mountbatten Pink and captains were free to mix their own formulaes. This lead to different shades and whilst in the main the colour seems to have been somewhere between AP507B and AP507C there were lighter or darker variants used with some very red variations as well (research by Alan Raven). At the end of September 1940 the 5th Flotilla were transferred from the Humber to Plymouth. The senior officers here were not convinced by the value of camouflage at all and so the 5th was painted in overall AP507B. Mountbatten Pink was not permitted at all. It continued to be applied to cruisers though with Kenya commissioning in what seems to have been a three shade Mountbatten Pink camouflage scheme before simplifying to a two shade scheme (Alan Raven Camouflage Vol 1: Royal Navy 1939-1941; pp 21 and M J Whitley Cruisers of World War Two; pp122). In April 1941 it was decided that the 5th flotilla should go to the Mediterranean. As they were leaving the Plymouth command and transferring to a fleet where camouflage was deemed essential the members of the flotilla needed camouflaging and this gave Mountbatten the opportunity to paint his destroyers in his pet colour. My correspondent (who was the First Lieutenant's messenger) states that all the ships in the flotilla received this colour with Mountbatten himself and all the officers also taking part in the process. At that time the flotilla comprised Kelly, Kelvin, Jupiter, Jackal, Javelin, Kashmir, Jersey, Kipling and Isaac Sweers. Jupiter was in drydock for repairs to her turbines (sabotage was suspected) and Javelin was under repair after an engagement with German destroyers the previous year. Isaac Sweers did not sail with the 5th and did not receive Mountbatten Pink. Thus the ships of the 5th Flotilla which were painted in Mountbatten Pink were Kelly, Kipling, Kashmir, Kelvin, Jackal and Jersey. Of these Kelly, Kashmir and Jersey would be lost in Mountbatten Pink. Kelvin and Kipling would be repainted after repairs for battle damage - Kipling sometime around July 1941 and Kelvin in Bombay in 1941. Jackal was repainted in the 7th Flotilla scheme when she joined that flotilla. Mountbatten Pink lingered until 1942 and Mountbatten himself gave his formulae to the Admiralty stores department which issued a definitive mix in CAFO 784/42. However, research (also in 1942) showed that Mountbatten Pink offered no advantage at all over WA schemes or standard greys. The report (HO217/7) stated, "...Mountbatten Pink renders a ship more visible on a majority of occaisions than a WA type design. There is no appreciable difference between a Mountbatten Pink and an equivalent grey ship." This result finished Mountbatten Pink and post 1942 no more ships were painted in this colour. Chris Amano-Langtree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: andrew jones Subject: Book review - Osprey German E-boats 1939 - 1945 Well got my copy on the weekend @ Napoleons (Sydney) for $27.95 , as i thought i could use it for reference for my 1/700 Skywave kits ( waits for the laughter to die down) Contents: goes into the design & history of these boats & their units, weapons etc in a well detailed book for such a small size. Colour Profiles (this is what i like about these books!, unless you are a rivet counter & hate all colour schemes done in any books, but that's a battle that never be won or lost on who is right & wrong unless there is direct evidence, but lets not go down that road). On the first page of Colour Schemes, you get 2 Early war forecastle e-boats S10 & 24, one with canvas "skirts) & the other "open deck", plate B shows S-18 in an attack pose with torpedo tubes open & at full speed, Plate C 2 mid war high forecastle e-boats with side skirts up (so sorta shows nothing), Plate D is the internal arrangements of S-100 TYpe E boat, Plate E 2 x late war high forecastle boats (one light grey with patches & the other light grey with a hint maybe green smudged through??), Plate F shows an late war e-boat with a 4 barrelled 20mm gun popping away at a Spitfire - looking from high on the starboard Qtr & Plate G shows 3 late war boats with armoured bridges Photos, mainly just the crews with a few photos of specific parts of the boats, so if you are after specific information about where a certain piece of equipment etc was located, you only get about 2 or 3 photos & Plate F would be your only good choices for deck detail Overall, i cannot compare it to Steve Wiper(?)'s book on this subject as i never saw it in Australia , probably this is not for people wanting to "high" detail their revell or Airfix kits, but more just a basic source on the scourge of the seas..who knows maybe Squadron might put one out soon..overall its a fair book, but probably one you will need to look through first to see if it is of any use to your model Please note that this is just my opinion of this book, if you disagree & think i have bagged this book, again its my thoughts ..if you think its better, you can always do a review yourself, cuz as with any book, its up to the individual as to what information they are seeking...thank you Andrew..will show Shane @ the next APMA meeting, so he can have a read etc also just a foot note, good luck to those battling the fires in Canberra if there are any SMMLiers from Canberra, pity to hear about the Mt Stromlo observatory was destroyed & all those houses lost, hope the zoo is ok... Just as well i went to Canberra last year to see everything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Re: African Queen >> Here is a link to the Billings model of the African Queen http://www.bestrc.com/billingboats/bilb1408.html#588 << Thanks, Clive I actually saw one the other day at a local Hobbytown USA - it does NOT look much like the boat in the movie (generally similar, but obvious differences); I'm wondering if they had a kit of some other vessel and just repackaged it. Anyway, I've got the hull (from a Monogram RAG boat kit, I think); I want to kit-bash and semi-scratch to get the model as close as possible to the movie boat ... but I do appreciate your perseverance in this matter. Thanks Ned ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: ZMzimmerman Subject: Abercrombie For the out of print Profile Morskies try www.alibbris.com and type in Profile Morskie in the title section of their site search. Good hunting. Michael Zimmerman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Re: Campbelltown >> There was a posting a week or so ago asking about the scheme applied to Campbeltown at the time of the St Nazaire raid. It set me re-reading 'The Greatest Raid of All' by Lucas Philips and dusting off the old Airfix Campbeltown. However, I was struck by a couple of things when it came to the colour schemes of the vessels involved in the raid. In chapter 10 of his book Lucas Philips stated that the MLs on the raid were painted Mountbatten Pink (also described as Plymouth Pink) after experience gained in Exercise 'Vivid'. That would be on and after 23rd March 1942. He then goes on to say that Campbeltown, newly disguised as a Mowe class Torpedoboot, arrived from Devonport on the 25th. Unfortunately he does not state whether Campbeltown was similarly painted. Obviously, the other main reference for this is Al Ross' Anatomy of the Ship book, 'Campbeltown'. Excellent reference though this is, there is no information pertaining to Campbeltown's colour scheme on Operation Chariot in the painting reference. From the few available photographs - which include those in After the Battle Magazine's piece on the raid - the scheme is clearly a fairly dark, plain colour. Can anyone say whether the Campbeltown was finished in Mountbatten Pink? It seems to my mind likely that she was not. Logic would suggest that a re-paint would not have been undertaken on this larger, expendable vessel so late in the operation. She would certainly have needed some touching up after the conversion (if she will forgive the phrase), but that seems likely to have occurred before the decision to re-paint the ML's. This is opinion, not fact. I hope that one of you may have puzzled over this one before and that you may shed some light on the matter. << I'll be looking for answers - I'd also like to know if anyone has sources for the Airfix kit, or either/both of the books, plus after-market PE/Resin or anything else that might help building the project. I could look on eBay and Amazon (and may have to do so), but I thought I'd check here first. Thanks Ned Hi Ned, The Airfix Campbelltown was re-released last year in a box set with the Cossak, Hotspur & "Narvik" class DD. Check your favourite online/offline hobby supplier for full details. Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Bud Link" Subject: propeller diameter - thanks Thanks to Keith Bender for the full info on Northampton-class propellers. Bud ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "lamkeel" Subject: A small world! Hi to you all. On the Holland Class submarine question Vickers built the first RN "Boats" to their design when five units were ordered around 1905. I have drawn this subject on two large sheets, L/S/52/A and B to the scale of approx 3/8" = 1Ft. If I recall hundreds of rivet heads. See my site www.john-lambert-plans.com Last Friday I had the pleasure of meeting Dan Taylor at his workshop in West Malling, Kent. I have known Daniel about ten years. He is a conversion to warships having been converted from building AFV's to warships. His club used to meet at the Army Museum in Chelsea and I was invited along to give a talk. He saw my drawings and decided he needed more of a challenge. We have met or telephoned from time to time, but this was my first visit to his "den". I was most impressed with his standard of work. A Hunt Class destroyer, and conversions from the standard Type 100 Schnellboote kit, with alternative scratch built detail. A scratchbuilt 70ft short Vosper MTB and WEM kits. He is open for interesting modelling contracts and works to the highest standard, in particular RN Coastal Forces. I suspect that he is too modest to tell the wide world, so send him an e-mail on d-taylor@dircon.co.uk and ask for a copy of his pamphlet which shows off samples of his work. Yours "Aye" John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Roland Mar Subject: The fires in Australia TO: our Australian list mates To Shane, Lorna, and all others on this list from OZ. We in Colorado had our own summer of fire. Fortunately, despite losing hundreds of thousands of acres to fire, we only lost property. We saved the lives. Colorado coped because we all pitched in as neighbors together to help those in need. From what I can see, Australia has it far worse and is suffering more than we did. It is time, perhaps, for us to help our brothers and sisters in Australia. If there is anything we can do, if there is a reputable charity we can contribute to; anything, could it be posted here? Roland Mar Hi Roland, I'm in contact with some SMMLies (some of who were right in the "firing line") in the ACT & will get back to you with any details as soon as they come to light. Regards, Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John Sutherland" Subject: What new for 2003? With the wonderful news of the IHP 700 scale kit of the Starling (I've wanted this kit for so long), what other delights have we for 2003 from other manufacturers (kits and PE)? What do we need to save our pennies / cents for? Any one heard anything? WEM? And who is stocking / taking pre-orders for the Starling? 2003 is going to be great. Best regards John Sutherland Wellington NZ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: wem Subject: Re: Reuben James/Abercrombie/Passing History/St Nazaire Colour schemes >> On the WEM re-stock - how close is the Reuben James to the Aaron Ward in it's 12/7/41 Pearl Harbor configuration? << Close, but not close enough to do straight out of the box. RUBE's after 3 funnels had been shortened, and WARD's--to the best of my knowledge--had not. RUBE had landed her after sets of torpedo tubes and replaced them with additional gun mounts, while WARD apparently still had hers. >> Can anyone guide me to a source for a book called 'Brytyjski Monitor HMS Abercrombie, Part1' (and any other parts!) in the Profile Morskie series. << The actual title is "British Monitors of the Roberts Class Part 1: HMS Abercrombie." We stock it. >> Ah, John, you forgot the USS Salem CA-139, which is at the yard now as a museum, future questionable? I hope the ship survives all the ego battles going on around it. << Nah, the person who wrote the news article forgot poor SALEM. >> Can anyone say whether the Campbeltown was finished in Mountbatten Pink? << Alan Raven lists CAMPBELTOWN as one of the ships wearing Mountbatten Pink in "Warship Perspectives: Royal Navy Camouflage, Vol. 1." I know that I have, in the past, also read the same elsewhere but can't recall the source. Perhaps WR will pipe up here? Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Dafuelmann Subject: Pearl Harbor Crane Barge Does anyone have any information on the large crane barge the was at Pearl Harbor in 1941? I'm talking about the one in the famous photo of the Arizonia's foremast being removed. Even the name or number of this beast would be a help, so I could then ask the Archives for information. TIA David ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: GD Quincy Yard- Passing History It is too bad that the Beth/GD Quincy Yard is a goner; all the great ships of history that started there. Interesting to note that when Beth Steel shutdown their operations in Quincy and GD took over, the Beth Ship employees were terminated (I think it was on a Friday) and had to re-apply for their old jobs, at lower wages, with no seniority, with GD on Monday. GD, with a great morale-building strategy, also terminated Electric Boat/Groton employees (especially design and engineering) and told them their jobs now existed at Quincy and if they wanted them, they had to relocate there at the employee's expense, and oh yes, at a lower pay scale.I don't think GD made the ex-Groton employees re-apply for their old jobs that now existed at Quincy, but I won't swear to that. I was an employee at EB/Groton and a member of our Engineering and Design Association (Union). This was during the time that the 637, 626, and 640 Classes were under construction. 688 wasn't quite yet on the drawing boards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: GWMcCue Subject: Holland Project - CD Supply Exhausted Ed Popko of IBM has received dozens of requests for the Holland Project CD from SMML. His supply of CDs has been exhausted and regrets that he will be unable to fulfill any additional requests. As mentioned in my earlier posting, we hope to re-issue the CD in a couple of months and set it up so that the CD can be ordered through normal IBM channels. Until that time, I encourage you to visit my website (www.geocities.com/gwmccue), where you will find a wealth of information about John Holland, Holland submarines, Holland's competition (Garrett, Nordenfelt, Baker, Tuck, Lake, etc), and details of the Holland VI (USS Holland) including photos, scans of original drawings, the specification, and trial reports. Unfortunately, there is only a minimum amount of information about the Holland Project on my website due to lack of space (I am using 14.3 of the 15 MB geocities provides for free). Sincerely, Gary McCue ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Ricjus001 Subject: Beginers Hello all, a friend of mine and I were talking about how to get kids ages 9+ into ship modeling. Car and airplane modelers have snap kits. Are there such things as snap together ships? If not, what do some of u suggest to get kids into ship modeling, wathcing while u work? Justin Richard Windham ME ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Millen, Alan R." Subject: Cambeltown at St. Nazaire Taken a step further, logic would also decree that, if they went to the trouble of modifying her to Mowe class configuration, they wouldn't then nullify the work of conversion by using a distinctly British camoflage. Alan R. Millen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Dimi Apostolopoulos Subject: Re: St Nazaire Colour schemes Dan, Campbeltown was painted in Mountbatten Pink. Dimi ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SAMI ARIM Subject: Gowland & Gowland kits I found the complete collection plus some extra of these gorgeous kits as a part of an old kit collection few years ago. First I kept one of each kit for myself, than sold them to another list member here. They represent an important part of kit making as they are transitional kits from old balsa to injection molded kits of today. The detail was exquisite and overall package was high quality. Sami Arim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: annobon4 Subject: VHS to DVD Hi I have a number of videos about old shows and references related to modeling on VHS cassette. Recently I was in a video store and DVD seems to be replacing VHS cassettes. Has any one hear how long it might be till DVD completely replaces VHS? If so how does one transfer VHS to DVD? Because I have some stuff I'd like to keep. Craig Bennett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Richa5011 Subject: Slightly OT - Forth Bridge I know this is somewhat off topic, but I am need of some help for a modeling project I am working on. I need to know the height above the water of the center span of the Forth Bridge. I also need to know the distance between the two vertical support structures (I'm sure there is a proper engineering name for those, but I don't know what it is), in otherword, how wide is the passage for a ship to pass through? Does anyone have a chart of the Firth of Forth or some other reference book that would have those details? I have a number of photographs, and could guesstimate the distances, but would rather have the actual numbers. Thanks! Nat Richards ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ALROSS2 Subject: Dry transfer hull numbers As part of the 1/192 DE kit I developed for BlueJacket, I had them make up a dry transfer sheet of hull numbers in both shaded and unshaded formats. The sheet contains: a. nine sets of 0-9, 1/2" shaded numbers b. ten sets of 0-9, 1/8" shaded numbers c. ten sets of 0-9, 1/8" unshaded numbers d. seven sets of 1/16" draft marks They will sell them separate from the kit at $15.00 per sheet, plus shipping. Contact them at www.bluejacketinc.com and ask about item #2000 - dry transfer hull numbers. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Snyder Subject: Regia Marina Re-stock Hi All, We've just received a re-stock on Regia Marina kits. After sorting out all the pre-orders, here's what we have waiting for you: USS WASHINGTON USS NORTH CAROLINA VITTORIO VENETO ROMA ANDREA DORIA TURBINE (destroyer) ATTILIO REGOLO POETI (transport) PILO-SIRTORI-LA MASA-CANTORE Class 3-stack destroyer RAMB (Armed Merchant Cruiser) Orders cheerfully taken.... Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: airartcsb@juno.com Subject: I need a 1/350 Resin kit of an old 4 stacker I have a BWN resin kit 1/350 of the USS Gwin. This is a Benson Class Destroyer and I am willing to trade it for a resin kit 1/350 of an old 4 stack so I can do the USS Pope. I am working on a waterline BWN U.S.S Houston and this would help me complete my diorama of the battle of the Java sea. Can any one help? Best wishes C.S.Bailey ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume