Subject: SMML VOL 2114 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:54:36 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Prinz Eugen Paint Scheme 2: Re: James Cameron's Bismarck Documentary 3: It's Ba-ack 4: Re: Anchors and Cables 5: Re: Nicknames 6: Tico hawser ports 7: Nicknames 8: Re: Anchor Trivia 9: website with many fotos of German WW2 warships 10: Poseidon Nanuchka Kit 11: Skywave or Hasegawa? 12: Hawse holes 13: Prinz Eugen - Naval German 101 14: Re: More on hobbyshop locations 15: Re: CV6 from CV8 16: Re: Nicknames 17: Looking for a DASH 18: USS Nautilus 19: Re: Knots and virii 20: Re: Anchors 21: final part of the mag review 22: Re: Knots and virii 23: Anchors et al -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Yorktown/Enterprise conversion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen Paint Scheme >> According to Steve Wiper in his latest book on PRINZ EUGEN, she did not wear the camouflage scheme shown in the Tamiya instructions during Operation Rheinubung. In fact, PRINZ EUGEN repainted in the same fashion as BISMARCK: Hellgrau 50 upperworks, and Dunkelgrau 51 hull. << The "Baltic" camo stripped pattern was worn only in the.......you guessed it.......BALTIC!!! The only time this pattern was worn outside the Baltic was when Bismarck and Prinz Eugen both steamed to Norway. This was painted out as John has stated above. Also, as a side note, I now have seen information on the Bismarck showing this camo pattern being painted out on the superstructure enroute to Norway! This may also have been the case with Prinz Eugen. The Tamiya kit of the Prinz Eugen is a great kit. One small problem with it is the fact that the forward AA directors (large round objects) were not installed until the ship reached France. They were then of course present during the Channel Dash. There are a few minor mistakes in my new Prinz Eugen book, but for the most part, it is pretty correct. Just look at all the pretty photos and they will answer many questions for you. Steve @ www.classicwarships.com/books ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: James Cameron's Bismarck Documentary >> Have just seen a trailer for this & it is scheduled for broadcast on the Discovery Channel in the UK @ 8 PM on Sunday 16th February. << I highly recommend this program. I think it is the best one on the Bismarck done to date. Thomas Schmid's computer graphics (CGI) is truly amazing. The animations are Titanic movie quality and look damn near real! The underwater footage on the wreck of the Bismarck is absolutely the best done to date. It is very extensive and the clarity is amazing. Of course there are a few mistakes, we all make them, like the stock historical footage some of the producers use, that are of Italian ships???? I have since learned that this happens, sometimes, because the holders of the footage, Archives?, have mislabeled them and so, not knowing any better, they get used. Also Cameron's conclusion about the infamous "Rudder" question, I think, is all wrong. Nonetheless, I say it is still by far the best documentary on Bismarck and Operation Rheinübung. By the way, did I mention that one of my next two books is on the Bismarck, using Thomas Schmid's CGI?????????? Steve Wiper www.classicwarships.com/books ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Allan and Crystal Plumb" Subject: It's Ba-ack The Spring catalog from USNIP just arrived; I see that "British Battleships Of World War Two" is due to be reissued "back by popular demand", in May. Cool. If my copy ever finally dies, I can now replace it. OTOH, the (non-member) price is $89.95 US. One of my favorite sources. And a new "US Destroyers" revision by Friedman with the latest classes; hmm, I guess that means most of the others won't be reissued since they haven't had any new battleships or cruisers lately? Allan Plumb ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Stephen Varhegyi" Subject: Re: Anchors and Cables As an avid boatie I can tell you one thing, if you don't attach a good length of anchor chain to your anchor rope you won't hold bottom. I bought a new boat a while ago but used my old anchor because it was better, had a longer length of chain attached and a heavier rope. Recently I was following directions from a fishing video on anchoring techniques, where you anchor across the current to have more fishing area. To accomplish this you have to throw an anchor off the stern as well and drag your boat back across the current. The anchor which came with the boat had a 4 foot chain attached, whilst my anchor attached to the bow had a 6 foot chain. No matter what I tried I couldn't get the stern anchor to hold in the current. The weight of the chain (or cable) keeps the anchor in position to grip the bottom. When pulling up an anchor you will have tension until the rope is basically above the anchor and the angle of the anchor blades changes such that it loses it's grip on the bottom. This is using a sand anchor. If however you have a reefy bottom you could be forced to cut off your anchor if you're unable to release it. When anchoring over reefs or rocky bottoms we always use a reef pick (reef anchor) which is shaped like a grappling hook. If you pull hard enough you can straighten out the prongs and release your anchor. Once on board you can bend the prongs back into a hook shape. Large ocean going ships usually anchor in relatively calm waters, relative to their size. Most of the time I think you'll find its more or less a straight up lift for them. Steve Varhegyi ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Nicknames USS BAINBRIDGE (CGN-25), "Billy B" (this appears to have been a later manifestation, as when I served in BAINBRIDGE 1966-70 there was no nickname). And, after a spate of homosexual cases aboard during the same period, the USS ST. PAUL was known throughout the fleet as the "Miss Pauline." Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Rod Dauteuil" Subject: Tico hawser ports Hi, I stand to be corrected. I was thinking they were below the main deck and ropes would pass through them--like a modern carrier. Rod ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "rt.rogers" Subject: Nicknames The previous Illustrious was known as the "Lulu!" and the full nickname of Albion was "The Grey Ghost of the Borneo coast!" I'm proud to have served in the latter as well as "The Happy Hermes", "The Vic", "The Big E", "The Rusty B", "The Fighting Fearless" & "The Ark". Also a brief sojourn in RFA Sir Galahad (Not bad for a "WAFOO!") The "Big E" became the "Not quite as big E" when we met the USS Enterprise in the Med!! By the way, Mr. Lambert, I believe we served in Bulwark at the same time? Ransford "Taff" Rogers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: Anchor Trivia Wayne, Mark Leonard, John Heasel, James Harwell and MGFoster all had excellent descriptions of anchor usage. One thing I didn't know was that the bigger ships set the anchor the same way as smaller boats, by reversing and digging it into the ground. A couple of additional points from my years on the water when I was a kid, Most anchoring is done near shore, (not so close that the vessel will run aground! but not in open ocean either) therefore, tides have an affect as well. That is to say, one of the reasons so much length is let out is that as the tide goes out or comes in, the vessel moves with it and swings around the anchor point and the depth obviously changes as well. I just thought I'd point this out as someone who hasn't been to sea might not realize this. So when anchoring, you have to make sure you have lots of room around you. Another thing is that it doesn't always work out for the best. I've seen anchors get stuck on sunken trees, sunken cars, rocky bottoms, etc. Then all you can do is cut the line and buy a new anchor. I don't know if this happens very often on the bigger ships, but they have to be careful as well. Just my 2 cents added, Darren Scannell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Emil Pozar" Subject: website with many fotos of German WW2 warships >> http://www.militaria-house.com/kriegsmarine-auswahl.html most were new to me, << The very most interesting - port side of the Bismarck with a MUCH LIGHTER painted stern (and maybe bow too)!!! (photo rhein7.jpg) Emil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: Poseidon Nanuchka Kit About how much would one of the Poseidon Nanuchka kits go on the market right now? IHS, Ralph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: Skywave or Hasegawa? Lars wrote more about the releases in Model Fan: I presume this is a German magazine. Also, you do not say who is releasing these kits of the DDGs, (or did I miss it?) so all I can say is that the only kits of these ships in plastic 1/700 scale are the Skywave kits. Aoshima produces kits of the Murasame class (so does Skywave - I have built the Aoshima one because it was half the price and also included the invaluable photo-etch set in the limited release version, while generally available PE sets for these ships and the other major JMSDF ships including Kongo class from Joe World are only on the market as of two months ago), improved Murasame class (no-one else does), Takao class heavy cruisers (so does Pitroad), and Tone class cruisers (update to their own older molds), Nagato class (ditto) and so on. In short: modern JMSDF ships have overlap only in the Murasame class. If you know who is boxing the kits please post - I have not heard of Pitroad or Aoshima letting others box their kits so far, except for the joint venture of Pitroad and Trumpeter on the Iowa class, which meant cheap Trumpeter versions overseas and expensive Pitroad boxed versions in Japan, bah! Cheers, Gernot ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: dfisher Subject: Hawse holes While it ws not in my area of work I recall that on merchant vessels they usually used some form of concrete to block the hawse holes when leaving port. Dave Fisher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Baumbach, Werner" Subject: Prinz Eugen - Naval German 101 >> Good points here. I was intending to build the ship shortly after they went out of the harbour...maybe in the Fjords. My guess, also seing some pictures of the cruiser, she still had the camouflage scheme in the fjord...when detected by the Spitfire. Still I can't say if she still had the swastika and the coloured top turrets. AFAIK, the germans called the ships "he". There was a discussion not long ago about this subject in SMML. Still, in my humble opinion I would prefer to call it "she". << Hallo Filipe, I have a German book printed in 1940 or 1941 on Prinz Eugen. I'll check the he/she thing. Language might have changed a bit, who knows (I was born after the war :-) Well in any case for those of you interested, here is a summary of the current status of the language: English German the der (male) die (female) das (neutral) the ship das Schiff (neutral) the battleship das Schlachtschiff (neutral) the cruiser der Kreuzer (male) the heavy cruise der schwere Kreuzer (again male) the submarine das U-Boot (neutral) the frigate die Fregatte (female) the carrier der Traeger (male) easy, right? Don't ask me why different types of ships have different sexes, anyone wants to help out? Now when you use the name of the ship, I think it is always female = die (can't think of an exception at the moment, again, someone might jump in here). So I would definetely say: die Bismarck, die Prinz Eugen, die Sachsen (new frigate named after the German state). Same would be used for die Prince of Wales, die Sheffield .... German articles are about as tricky as French (I still have nightmares from tests in highschool :-) I guess. Hope this helps a bit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Erhardtsen" Subject: Re: More on hobbyshop locations >> I've recently moved in the approximate vincinity of Copenhagen, Denmark. Does anyone know of any decent hobbyshops in that city? << Try: Stoppel Hobby Shop Smallegade 8, 2000 Frederiksberg http://users.cybercity.dk/~ccc92722/ or City Guns APS. Gammeltorv 8 1457 København K., Du er velkommen til at kontakte mig på telefon 54 60 06 23 Venlig hilsen Erik Erhardtsen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Silas Wellington" Subject: Re: CV6 from CV8 Dave I just took my razor saw and carefully cut down each side of the doors then with a #11 blade scribed the top till almost through broke the door off then filed and sanded the rest of door till it looks good.. did almost of the the hanger doors...and also made some opened just some of the way...looks pretty good (even my wife was impressed) as for the tripod try brass tubing from you local hobbie shop, or an easyer way Nautilus Models just came out with a conversion kit for the CV6 it looks really good and also has the gun tubs that Big E had the hornet did not. It's around $70.00... Good luck Si Wellington ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Daniel" Subject: Re: Nicknames >> The RN loves nicknmaes, here are some I know of ships old & new. etc. etc. << Wow, a lot of additions! I take it that the majority of these refer to modern or post-WWII incarnations of the names? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Looking for a DASH OK, it's not strictly a ship model, but they operated _from_ ships. I'm looking for a model of a DASH, the drone anti-submarine helo operated by the US and Japanese navies. Any scale will do, and while I'd prefer the QH-50D version, I can do some converting. Thank you! Joe Poutre ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "robert patmore" Subject: USS Nautilus I am collecting material in order to build a model of the USS Nautilus SS168. The boat mounted two 6/53 deck guns and since I like to scratch build ships guns I need pictures or drawings or both of this gun. I have failed to find any info on the web and Floating Drydock does not have anything on it. Can anyone offer help on this? Bob Patmore ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "David Griffith" Subject: Re: Knots and virii Dear Darren, Thanks for the warning. I got it too, delivered to my junk mail box. Deleted without opening, just as I do with the adverts for pornography and bogus university degrees. Thanks a lot. Regards, David Griffith ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Chris Johnson" Subject: Re: Anchors While serving onboard the USS America CVA-66 in 1968, we had to "anchor out" a lot on out around the world cruise. This is because the America drew 35 feet of water and could not be accommodated at many ports. Our captain (Capt Turner) was promoted to Admiral and we were assigned a new captain (Capt Rumble). There was an underway change of command ceremony while on yankee station in the Tonkin Gulf. All very formal and full of pomp and circumstance I'm sure. Made me glad I was a snipe and didn't have to get in my dress whites and attend. Captain Rumble (the XO at the time was Cdr Chew) had been a pilot. Most, if not all carrier captains are ex flyboys. When his flying days were done, he was put in command of a fleet oiler, where he could learn to handle ships. The first port we hit after he was in command was Subic Bay in the Philippines. The ship was docked at Cibi Point since the harbor was deep enough. We then left there and started for home. The next port was Sydney Australia. We had to anchor out. The Captain gave the command to drop the hook. He then wanted to lay our some chain (as described in the previous posts). He gave a command which was probably fine for a single screw underpowered oiler. He said "All back two thirds!". Needless to say, anchor chain started flying out at an alarming rate. There was a short time when there was a possibility of having an aircraft carrier sitting next to the Sydney Opera House as a permanent display. Jim Johnson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: andrew jones Subject: final part of the mag review World news Update: * The commanding officer of the USS Kitty Hawk was relieved of his commmand due to the ships detoriating condition. The carrier also failed a "light off" inspection of its propulsion plant. In Sept the new skipper, fired the carrier chief engineer & 10 other senior & mid grade sailors. * Candian Navy sent 2 of its ships into the artic for the first time in 13 years * US navy has taken the option for a 3rd T-AKE logistic ship * Sth AFrica has returned to service 2 of its upgraded Daphne subs. * India has launched the of this totally local designed & built patrol boats. Their top speed is 35knots * US navy destroyer John Young has been mothballed * French boosts defence budget * Bath Iron Works is contracted to build 6 Aegis DDG's * Very few of the Indonesian navy fleet of 113 is considered to combal worthy & most are not even sea worthy * Possible sale of USN Spruance destroyers to Brazil * Final group of Tiger class patrol boats wil be transferred to Egypt * Incat has leased a 2nd INCAT Boat * Perth in Australia, will be a bse for naval ship swap over programs. Crews wil change over in Perth to allow ships to reploy faster than coming back to the US. * US Navy has located the majority of nearly 600 computers reported as missing or lost * Pentagon has recomended the new US carrier CVNX to begin in 2006 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Knots and virii I think I may have been involved in a virus when I responded to an e-mail, one I find that was sent to other SMML people and seemingly from a young person, inquiring about the term "knot" My response was returned because the server didn't recognize the address. An appeal to SMML elicited the possibility that there just might be a contamination, even though I do have Norton anti virus protection (I hope). Be that as it may, perhaps my essay just might be of interest to a few SMML subscribers. Therefore I submit it for general enlightenment. It is a completely new composition, apart from the aborted original opus, therefore it should be sterile. Here goes!! A critical navigational need is the knowledge of the speed of a vessel, at least the speed through the water. On the old sailing ships this parameter was determined, albeit rather crudely, by means of a device known as a "chip log" (not to be confused with the record of the vessel's daily activities known as the "ship's log") or a "taffrail log". This consisted of a triangular shaped piece of flat wood (chip) attached, by means of a three-part bridle, to a long piece of rope (line) called the log line. When cast off the stern (over the taffrail), the chip dragged through the water, the bridle holding the chip perpendicular to the log line to assure maximum resistance (drag). Thus the log line, under tension created by the dragged chip, was caused to unreel itself from a spool on the vessel as it moved away and the chip tended to remain stationary (almost) in the water. Originally, knots were tied (I bet you can see where I am going with this) in the log line at intervals of 47 feet 3 inches. The log line was allowed to run out whilst the number of knots passing by an observer in a time lapse of 28 seconds was noted, using a special 28-second "hour glass". This observed count was the speed of the vessel (roughly, considering the many variables involved), and used in the procedure of so-called "dead reckoning". Dead reckoning was necessary when clouds obscured sun and/or the stars and a sextant was thus rendered useless. This process was later refined by adding bits of white cloth to the log line, subdividing each knot section into 5 segments. Other improvements such as sweep-second watches etc. followed, real high tech for that era. The unusual numerical values are derived from the fact that the ratio of one hour (3600 seconds) to 28 seconds is equal (nearly) to the ratio of one nautical mile (6080 feet) to 47 feet 3 inches. Some navigators eased the math a little by using 6000 feet (or even 2000 yards). Those old-timers weren't so dumb after all!! Later, the chip and 28-second glass were replaced by a device called a "patent log", but using the same basic principle. The wooden chip was replaced by a weight on the end of the log line. This weight had slightly curved fins which would cause the log line to rotate when the weight was dragged through the water. This rotation was metered by a revolution-sensing mechanical instrument which indicated the vessel's speed by means of a pointer in front of a dial calibrated in (you guessed it) knots, for that instant, at least. Very similar to an automobile's speedometer (hey, that's what it is, isn't it, a speedometer?). Whereas the chip log often required 3 people (one to monitor the 28-second glass, one to count the knots, and one to supervise and record the values), the patent log required only one (usually a Mate) to read and record the indicated speed. Then came radio, Loran, radar, satellites, GPS, computers, etc. In fact, the midshipmen at the Coast Guard Academy are not required to study navigation any more (I hope it is at least an elective!). They rely on hand-held battery powered individual GPS units. A prudent Coast Guard captain would be well advised to see to it that some crewmen will still be able to use a sextant etc., just in case. An ambitious boatswain would jump at the chance, it would help him to make Chief's rating. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Michael London" Subject: Anchors et al The new thread on anchors inspires me to tell a true story. The captain of a Great Lakes ship took his daughter with him on many trips in the summer months and, on this particular occasion, she brought along a school friend of hers. The ship was coming into harbor and the first mate was standing by the anchor chains at the bow awaiting the signal from the bridge to "let go". The daughter's friend joined him. She turned around and saw her friend the captain on the bridge and waved to him calling "hello". The captain waved back whereupon the mate called out "let go". Down went the anchor and all the chain from the cable locker in one great rush. Which brings me to an anchor question. It was the practice in the Royal and other navies to carry two bower anchors, one to port and one to starboard, plus a sheet anchor just aft of the starboard bower. In the German Navy however this sheet anchor was on the port side. Was there a technical reason for this, or just a desire to be different? Michael London ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: James Corley Subject: Yorktown/Enterprise conversion >> I would appreciate some advice on my conversion. What is the best way to remove some of the hangar deck doors? i surely don't want to screw up any parts. how can i scratch-build the tripod mast and gun control platform, etc.? does anybody want to swap a couple (maybe up to four) sbd's for a like amt. of f4's and/or tbd's? << Partly in response to this post, but as a general announcement, Nautilus Models now has the Yorktown/Enterprise conversion for the Trumpeter Hornet available. You can see photos at: http://nautilusmodels.com/enterprise.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume