Subject: SMML VOL 2116 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 04:11:28 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: PT Boat Questions 2: Re: Nautilus 3: USS Shanendoah 4: WW1 U-boats 5: German article confusion 6: Brazilian H and Turkish I 7: Airfix kit collectors 8: Re: Prinz Eugen - Naval German 101 9: Poseidon Nanuchka Kit 10: Re: Mirage 1/400 sub colours 11: Ex-Brazilian H- class & Ex-Turkish I- class destroyers 12: New Nicknames list 13: Ex Brazillian "H" class destroyers 14: nicknames 15: Re: Nicknames -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WTB: USN Destroyers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "David Edgerly" Subject: PT Boat Questions List, I have several questions on PT Boats (1/72nd Plastic Models): 1. Are the Revell hulls fairly accurate? 2. Are the deck layouts appropriate to the represented class? 3. Does anyone offer replacement armaments? (Especially the guns) 4. Would either of the boats offered by Revell have been used in the Med. and if so does anyone offer suitable paints? Thank you, DCE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Ives100@ Subject: Re: Nautilus >> You might call the submarine museum at Groton, CT. That's where the Nautilus is currently berthed, and the most likely place to have that information. 'Sorry that I don't remember the exact name, but they're almost across the river from the Coast Guard Academy. << Hi Randy, Robert was looking for Nautilus SS 168, not her namesake, SSN 571. Nautilus & Narwhal were originally designated as V-boats, and had 6 inch guns. These were built as large "cruiser submarines"; the largest submarines built by the US until the nuclear powered Triton. They were used to transport Marine raiders and perform rescues of those caught on islands captured by the Japanese. They proved too unwieldy to use as attack submarines. As it so happens, the guns of the Nautilus' (SS 168) sister ship, Narwhal, are on the grounds of the adjacent New London Submarine Base (which is located in Groton, CT, not New London). The correct name for the "Nautilus Museum" is the Submarine Force Museum & Library. Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Sean Obrien Subject: USS Shanendoah I know this isn't ships propper but it's naval. I am looking for an article in the April 1995 Fine Scale Modeler on the US Navy airship ZR-1 Shanendoah. I'd like to scratchbuild this airship. If anyone has a copy or could help me it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sean O'Brien ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: WW1 U-boats I have a couple of questions for SMML experts in WW 1 German (and Austrian) submarines. First) I would like to verify, and possible get more information about, the use of sails by U-boats in the Adriatic Sea in 1917-1918. I do know the subs had great difficulty getting into and out of their bases on the North Sea due to the Royal Navy's control of that area. Therefore the Austrian bases on the eastern edge of the Aegean Sea became very important in 1917-1918. The Allies set up a patrol line across the lower straits of the Aegean, called the Otranto Barrage. American 110 Ft. subchasers, using the latest in Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW), were extremely effective in detecting the subs' propellers and alerting other naval vessels, resulting in an attack. I have two separate brief mentions of the chasers sighting submarines trying to run the blockade by using sails instead of engines, thus avoiding the chasers' detecting devices. One sub dropped the sails and quickly submerged. The other submerged with the sails still set, that must have been a bear to maneuver!! Can any SMML U-boat expert please comment on this, or direct me to a source? Second) One "eye witness" source has made reference to the fact that the Kriegsmarine issued strict orders to all U-boat captains forbidding them from attacking the dreaded chasers. I can well imagine the reasons for such a policy. A) An attack, even if successful, would alert other Allied ships to the presence of a sub in the area. Stealth and surprise are great advantages of submarines and would be compromised by such an action. B) The chasers worked in teams of three, therefore attacking one would immediately pull the other two in to a counterattack with depth charges, and also result in other ASW vessels such as destroyers joining the engagement. C) Using a torpedo on such a small vessel as a chaser was not considered wise. The chasers' draft was less than the usual running depth of a torpedo, therefore a miss was highly likely. In fact, one young rogue captain did fire a torpedo at a chaser, but indeed missed as the missile went completely under the chaser. The U-boat managed to slip away without being attacked by the chasers. D) The cost effectiveness of sinking such a small vessel with an expensive device such as a torpedo was questionable, they could be better used if saved for larger vessels. My request is for any SMML people to please comment on, or give me leads to, the validity of such an order from the Central Powers' High Command. Sokol's book about the Imperial and Royal Austrian Navy doesn't mention either of the above. But that doesn't surprise me, as he was a young officer in that navy, and his book strongly reflects that background. Thanks. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "James Baumann" Subject: German article confusion As you would say in German, I now have to add my mustard to that subject as well. Dear Bert, Werner is absolutely right, that, when you use the name of the ship, it is always called die: die Gneisenau, die Rodney, die Bayern, die Akagi, no matter what nationality a ship has. When you refer to the shipname, you use sie (she), when you refer to the kind of ship, you have to follow the article: der Kreuzer: er (he), das Schlachtschiff: es (it), die Fregatte: sie (she). Btw, Bert, it is not der Fraeulein, but das Fraeulein. Don't ask me why. German articles are absolutely unlogical. For someone who learns german as a second language, there is only one way: to learn them by heart. The english are very gifted with only one article and the russians even more with none at all, and in french you have at least a fifty-fifty chance to get it right... Happy confusion, Katrin Kopte ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Robert and Rose Brown Subject: Brazilian H and Turkish I Hi everyone: From the books Amazon to Ivanhoe and the old Warship profile on HMS Hesperus, I have photos of all the appropriated H's and I's. With the exception of Ithuriel, the photos clearly show that they all had the modified bridge. The only photo I have of Ithuriel is from the stern and it doesn't show the front of the bridge, but I would imagine it too had the modified bridge. Amazon to Ivanhoe states that the H's were designed to carry 3-4.7". A photo taken of HMS Havant sinking on June 1, 1940 clearly shows only 3 mounts. The modified I class appear to have had all 4 mounts. Rob ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Robert and Rose Brown Subject: Airfix kit collectors I recently came across an MPC USS Saratoga, a kit I had never seen before. It is actually the Airfix Forrestal, but with a totally new and much larger box, slightly different instructions, and of course, number 60 on the decal sheet instead of 59. I was aware that MPC had repackaged some Airfix kits in the 1970's, including the Forrestal, but this is a surprise. So for you Airfix collectors who have to have everything, here is something else to track down. Rob ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Sab1156 Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen - Naval German 101 Dear Bert, German grammar can be confusing, but it is not "der Fraulein", it is das Fraulein, also not die Zerstoerer (this is plural),but der Zerstoerer. Best Regards Detlef ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: Poseidon Nanuchka Kit Hey All, I have a Poseidon Nanuchka Kit also that was why I asked how much they went for. Especially since they are OOP. IHS, Ralph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "David N. Lombard" Subject: Re: Mirage 1/400 sub colours >> just a quick question, what would be closest colours in Humbrol & WEM's range for the following 2 subs & pitty there is no pto etched for these subs yet or is there? << Go to http://www.jadar.com.pl/start-a.htm Select "Jadar Hobby Shop" banner on left. Select Union flag on right. Select Photoetched on left nav bar Select Mirage - PE for ships 1/400 on left nav bar Outstanding service. I faxed my CC info, and ordered online. Excellent selection and good service. My only connection is as a satisfied customer. David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA N 33 deg, 48', W 118 deg, 5' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: m.f.mclaughlin Subject: Ex-Brazilian H- class & Ex-Turkish I- class destroyers Hi John, The Ex-Brazilian destroyers based on the RN H-class destroyers were completed several years after the original RN order and recieved the modified bridge which some of the following I-class destroyers had fitted. Edgar March refers this latter built group as the Havant-class. You can find good photo's of most of the Havant-class destroyers except Havelock in the old Warship Profile # 20 on HMS Hesperus. The Ex-Brazilian destroyers were originaly designed to carry four 4.7 single mounts but, as you noted, completed without Y mount and had an extra 110 Depth charges fitted instead (E. March). Photo's in the Warship Profile show that Hesperus (H-57), Harvester (H-19) and Highlander (H-44, latter reduced to two 4.7 mounts with Hedgehog Anti-Submarine weapons in place of A mount. Although designed and some completed to carry two sets of quadruple torpedoe tubes, this class in general ended up reducing to a single quadruple mount. The Ex-Turkish destroyers based on the RN I-class also, completed some years after the original class and had the modified bridge. These two Ex-Turkish destroyers Inconstant (H-49) and Ithuriel (H-05) can be distinguished from the original I-class in that they carried a single quadruple torpedoe mount instead of the two sets of quintuple tubes of the older I-class. After the war, Ithuriel was reconditioned and resold to Turkey as the Mauvinet (E.March). A good quick reference are the two small volumes by H.T.Lenton entitled British Fleet And Escort Destroyers from the Navies of the Secound World War series. Although long out of print, you should be able to find copies on (abebooks.com). The best book on the subject is Edgar March's (OOP) book on British Destroyers but, is a great deal more expensive if you can find it. Hope that helps, Miles F. McLaughlin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Daniel" Subject: New Nicknames list I've posted a revised nicknames list, incorporating many suggestions I have received from the various listees over the last week (thanx!) Have a look at: http://www.ameritech.net/users/dkurtz/nicknames2.htm. ddk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "lamkeel" Subject: Ex Brazillian "H" class destroyers Hi All The question of bridge shape for the requisitioned destroyers building for Brazil. They were generally similar to the RN "H" class. Completed without Y gun and TSDS and carried four A/S mortars and two racks for 110 depth charges. According to British Fleet and Escort Destroyers by H T Lenton. Except for HMS Harvester, lost in 1940, the remainder later had the after bank of Torpedo Tubes replaced by a 12 pounder H/A gun mounting. In April 2000 I drew four sheets for HMS Harvester, from her original "As Fitted" drawings as supplied by her builders. Sheet A shows the external G/A and plan with hull lines and sections, plus detail of the gun mountings. (4.7") Sheet B shows the side profile G/A to a larger scale and a part key to detail. Sheet C shows the remainder of the key, (over 200 items) and enlarged upper deck detail. Three large sheets. As a bonus I have G/A drawings for the ships motor boat, which I have yet to draw. (Cost for all three sheets is £25.50 + £1.50 for the postal tube and £2.00 towards postage). Have a look at my web site www.john-lambert-plans.com to give you an idea of the standard of my work. If you look at the weapons list you will see that I have most of the weapons drawn as well. I am (Well my slave is) in the process of updating my lists, prior to increasing my prices for 1st April. (And - Its raining again)> Yours "Aye" John Lambert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "rt.rogers" Subject: nicknames Yes the "Vic" was Victorious, but bad marks Daniel for not knowing that the "Big E" was of course the "Eagle" Also, there were the "Tupperware Tubs" - relating to the first of the "Plastic" minesweepers! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Steve Singlar Subject: Re: Nicknames >> What was 'The Big E'? << In the US Navy, The Big E was USS Enterprise CV-6 and is currently USS Enterprise CVN-65. CV-6 was also know as the Galloping Ghost od the Ohau Coast" and the "Lucky E", but The Big E was the most common nickname for her. Once during an R&R period, men from the Essex suggested that the newer, larger Essex should be the "Big E" and the Enterprise become The Little E. Well one thing led to another and fists began to fly and CV-6 retained her nickname. Steve Pelham, NH (More snow on the way!!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Steve Evans Subject: WTB: USN Destroyers Hi, I'm after the following USN destroyer kits. Revell 1/240 USS Buckley Post WW2 Monogram 1/400 USS Halsey Post WW2 Regards, Steve Evans ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume