Subject: SMML VOL 2118 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:15:21 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Prinz Eugen - Naval German 101 2: Resin Kits in Blue 3: USS IOWA Nickname 4: Re: Wehrmacht 5: Wehrmacht 6: Re: German language - the myth? 7: Re: New releases from Japan 8: Re: Revell & Renwal USN kits 9: Re: new releases from Japan 10: Re: Revell & Renwal kits 11: New Releases from Japan 12: Re: German Language - myth? 13: HMS HAVANT 14: Re: new releases from Japan 15: 1/350th scale grate source? 16: Re: HMS Havant 17: Thanks on the PT Boat answers 18: Prinz Eugen Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Baumbach, Werner" Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen - Naval German 101 >> German grammar can be confusing, but it is not "der Fraulein", it is das Fraulein, also not die Zerstoerer (this is plural),but der Zerstoerer. << Hallo Bert, as Detlef said, German grammar can definetely be confusing. But definetely: das Fraeulein, der Zerstörer, die Fregatte, and trust me on this one (German is my first language): die Bismarck, die Prinz Eugen, die Graf Zepellin, die Gneisenau ... Happy modelling Werner ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Peter Subject: Resin Kits in Blue >> There are some interesting new 1/700 kits available in Osaka since the start of the year. Resin kits molded in blue which require some additional small parts readily available in weapons and accessory sets, but include small frets of photo-etch, primarily anchors and small AA guns. Instructions rudimentary, and hull is in sections. However, for Japan the prices are decent and the subjects extremely interesting. << I think I bought a kit in Japan from the manufacturer Gernot is referring to, in my case, a 1/700 container ship. I don't know of anyone else making such a ship in 1/700, so I was prepared to deal with a true garage kit. As stated, the kit is a little rough. The hull and deck were cast as five serious chunks of resin, light blue and smelling like some weird chemical spill. It took lots of sanding and lots of gap filling super glue to beat it into passable shape. I had to wash the resin parts several times to get enough of the casting goop off them so that paint would stick. The instructions consisted of a line drawing of the finished ship, and offered no real help on where many smaller parts should go. Because the cleanup task on these small parts was so daunting, I ended up replacing almost all of them with scratchbuilt pieces and/or things from my spares box. Despite all these flaws, the kit inexplicably included two very delicate photoetched anchors, along with some nice photoetched chain segments. In the end I have a decent container ship in 1/700 scale, but it was a lot more work than I prefer to do for a hobby. As for the Trumpeter Hornet, I bought mine at the Leonardo model chain store in Tokyo. Yellow Submarine in Shinjuku had a couple, as did Northport in Yokohama. I haven't seen them elsewhere in smaller shops, and the add on aircraft sets were less common than I would have thought. Trumpeter armor and aircraft kits are pretty easy to find over here, so this may be another example of ship model prejudice! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: aandmblevins Subject: USS IOWA Nickname I don't know if this has been mentioned but the post about the Big E dispute brought it to mind. USS Iowa, BB-61 was known as the "Big Stick". There are still some bumper stickers around with the saying "The Big Stick is Back" from her 80's redeployment. When the USS Theodore Roosevelt was commissioned it was proposed she was to be called "The Big Stick" for obvious reasons, but the Iowa won out. She is still know by that name, even in retirement. Al Blevins ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Baumbach, Werner" Subject: Re: Wehrmacht >> A German language question for the experts on the subject: "Die Wehrmacht," if memory serves correctly, is literally translated as 'Armed Forces.' As such, "Das Heer" (Army), "Der Kriegsmarine" (Navy), "Die Luftwaffe" (Air Force), and "Die Waffen SS" (lit.- Armed SS) were BRANCHES of "Die Wehrmacht." << Yes, I would say that is correct. Literally translated it is something like defense/repelling power (wehren = defend, repell ; macht = power, force). As far as I know, the Waffen SS was not part of the Wehrmacht and under seperate command. Basically formed out of Hitlers guard unit (Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler). SS = Schutzstaffel or Security detachment. Intially designed as an armed police force for the time after the war, these units evolved into combat units. In addition to the Waffen SS, there was the SS Totenkopf (=skulls) Verbaende (units), that were guarding the concentration camps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Gernot Hassenpflug Subject: Wehrmacht Mike ventured into German language territory and detonated some sea-mines with the following... >> Subject: German Language - myth? << ... you are quite incorrect here, the German language is in fact alive and well, although personally speaking, mine is rather ill. >> ..."Die Wehrmacht," if memory serves correctly, is literally translated as 'Armed Forces.' As such, "Das Heer" (Army), "Der Kriegsmarine" (Navy), "Die Luftwaffe" (Air Force), and "Die Waffen SS" (lit.- Armed SS) were BRANCHES of "Die Wehrmacht." << Yes, correct I believe. Die Wehrmacht translates more into Defence Forces than Armed Forces, although Verteidigungsmaechte would perhaps be better. The modern German meaning of 'sich wehren' is to defend oneself, armed or otherwise. Navy is Die Kriegsmarine, feminine like all the cute sailors and sailoresses (ducking!). If you choose Die Armee instead of Das Heer you can get all three in the same gender, a minor victory. And overall, these three services make up Die Streitkraefte: this is really a form of Armed Forces or fighting Forces because Streit has the meaning of fighting offensively rather than defensively. I am not sure how to use in the context of German Armed Forces other than the characteristic 'unsere Streitkraefte...'. I suspect it is not politically correct to use Streitkraefte, and that Wehrmacht is preferred, sort of the the Japanese Self Defence Forces instead of calling them the Royal/Imperial Japanese Military or something like that. >> Is this correct? If so, is the common English usage of the term "Wehrmacht" as a synonym for 'the German Army' in error (remotely>similar to 'neanderTal'), based on the above logic? And finally, is this error being perpetuated as a myth that "Wehrmacht" equals 'German Army' by ignorant English (language) writers? << I think you are correct here: the Wehrmacht is the overall term for all three branches and should not be identified only with the Army. The following link (in German) http://www.wk-2.de/okw.html is part of an interesting site, which includes a history of the change from Reichswehr (during the Weimar Republic) to the Wehrmacht des Dritten Reiches, together with the formation and composition of the OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht): I quote below the relevant section and give a short translation below the passage. "Das OKW setzte sich aus vier A"mtern zusammen: das Wehrmachtfu"hrungsamt (ab 1940 Wehrmachtfu"hrungsstab) stellte den eigentlichen operativen Arbeitsstab Hitlers dar, das Amt Ausland/Abwehr sowie die verwaltenden Abteilungen Allgemeines Wehrmachtsamt und das Wehrwirtschafts- und Ru"stungsamt. Direkt dem OKW unterstellt waren die Oberkommandos des Heeres (OKH) unter von Brauchitsch, der Luftwaffe (OKL) unter Go"ring und der Marine unter Raeder. Zwar a"nderte der Erla? vom 4. Februar 1938 die Funktionen der Oberkommandos der Wehrmachtteile nicht, wohl aber die Stellung der Oberbefehlshaber. Raeder, von Brauchitsch und Go"ring waren nun Hitler unmittelbar milita"risch unterstellt, was fu"r Go"ring nicht, aber fu"r die u"brigen Oberbefehlshaber von Heer und Marine auf eine deutliche A"nderung ihres bisherigen Dienstverha"ltnisses hinauslief." The OKW comprised 4 offices, namely Directing, Foreign/Defence, General, and Economy & Munitions. Directly under the OKW were the respective Oberkommandos of the Heer, Kuftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. These are referred to in the article as Wehrmachtsteile, or subunits of the Wehrmacht. The commanders of the three armed forces became directly responsible to Hitler as of 4. February 1938..... I hope this explains the position satisfactorily. (whew, thankfully something naval in all that!) Gernot H ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: URUDOFSKY Subject: Re: German language - the myth? I beg your pardon, but it is not "der Kriegsmarine". It is "die". It is "die" for Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. Why "das Heer"? No one knows! The proper use of articles seems to go along with the level of education in Germany, and not every German can handle them completely; moreover, there are regional differences in some dialects, too, to compound the mess, e.g., I used to call it "das Torpedo" for 50 years and then found out that in Hochdeutsch it is "der Torpedo". In addition, "der, die, das" each have different declinations from nominative to genitive, to dative and accusative, and from singular to plural. One would have hoped that during the recent ridiculous revision of the German language orthography, they could have done away at least with capitalization of nouns and, perhaps, with two of the three articles. For one thing it is time-consuming and, therefore, expensive, to hold down "shift" before every damn noun! Even capitalization is something that not every German can master flawlessly. Anyone who wants to get a good laugh, should read Mark Twain's essay on the "Awful German Language": http://www.cs.utah.edu/~gback/awfgrmlg.html Ulrich H. Rudofsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: New releases from Japan Hi Gernot, without seeing any of the kits you mentioned the only comments I could come up with are: 1- I bet that if there is any plastic left in Matsushima it will be main gun/mast/funnel sprue from Itsukushima/Hashidate set and (possibly) the ubiquitous wepons/boats sprue, 2- hulls of the new resin kits are in sections??? Can it, in your opinion, be a source of potential problems with section's matching??? Any guesses as to why this technique was adopted??? 3- SMS Scharnhrost and Gneisenau, wow, I am drooling already, but since, from the architectural point of view, they were such a complicated ships, I wonder how accurate those kits are... I, personaly, would hesitate to buy one without seeing the contence of the box first :-) Best wishes Darius ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: David Wells Subject: Re: Revell & Renwal USN kits annobon4 (Craig Bennett) wrote: >> A few months ago at a contest while talking to a ex- navy guy who collected Renwal and Revell kits. I learned that the reason the Renwal kits of our early DDG's and CG's or Revell kits weren't accurate was because of a disinformation program started by the USN to confuse the Russians in the early 1960's who buying anything to get accurate intelligence. Has any one ever heard of this? << There were rumors for years that the Renwal SSBN kits were so accurate that the USN got upset. There was even a joke that the Soviet Project 667 SSBNs (NATO code name "YANKEE") were so closely based on the Renwal kits that they had "Renwal Blueprint Models" printed on the bottom! There's no denying that the Project 667 boats were a major departure from previous Soviet designs, and they do strongly resemble US SSBNs. One of our fellow SMMLlies, (Tom Dougherty, perhaps?) once tried to get the real George Washington and/or Ethan Allen SSBN plans out of the National Archives so that he could compare them to the Renwal kits, but found that the plans were still classified. As for the Renwal DLG and CLG kits, yes they were inaccurate, but it looks to me more like Renwal just didn't do their homework properly. The Renwal DLG kits bear a stronger resemblance to the Mitscher class DLs than to the Farragut/Coontz class DLGs they were supposed to portray. I've long suspected that they got the plans for the Mitscher class DLs, and having been told that the Farragut/Coontz class would be essentially the same with a Terrier aft instead of a second 5 inch gun, Renwal designed their model accordingly. It's probably a similar case with the Renwal CLGs, which bear a strong resemblance to the unconverted Cleveland class, with what might seem to be some logical updates. I suspect that Renwal just took incomplete information from the USN, and then took their best guess. Renwal replaced the WW2 vintage 40mm quads with post-war 3"/L50 twins, (the USN actually did this on many ships, but not on the converted Clevelands) and replaced the two aft 6" turrets with twin Terrier launchers. A key question to my mind is when the kits were issued compared to when the 1/1 scale ships came out. My Renwal kits have no copyright dates on them, so I have no data. I've heard some stories that the DLG and CLG kits came out before the actual ships did, so it's possible that Renwal can be forgiven for its mistakes. "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: new releases from Japan Gernot, You wrote: >> There are some interesting new 1/700 kits available in Osaka since the start of the year. Resin kits molded in blue... << So here's the big question- do you know how those of us who live outside of Japan can get our hands on these kits? Are there any Japanese mail order companies equivalent to Pacific Front Hobbies that would 1) carry these kits and 2) sell them outside of the country? I have always seen the amazing variety of resin kits from small Japanese companies (from photos of model shows) but have never found a way of buying them. Thanks Yohan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Ives100 Subject: Re: Revell & Renwal kits >> A few months ago at a contest while talking to a ex- navy guy who collected Renwal and Revell kits. I learned that the reason the Renwal kits of our early DDG's and CG's or Revell kits weren't accurate was because of a disinformation program started by the USN to confuse the Russians in the early 1960's who buying anything to get accurate intelligence. Has any one ever heard of this? << Actually, I have heard this with regard to their Polaris SSBN kits with the cut away interiors. Supposedly, Rickover was very upset. That said, I think it is a bit if a stretch. The kits do not reveal the detailed engineering, which is the key. Further, the internal compartment arrangements are somewhat of a guess, even in the forward areas that are not classified. For example, the internal pressure hull area forward of the sail "necks in", giving a double hull area on the real submarine; not on the Renwals. The engineering spaces are, I have been told, way off. The Revell Nautilus (SSN 571) kit is incorrect in many features; I believe this is due to early Navy pre-launch depictions and (possibly purposeful) erroneous statements of ship's characteristics. As for surface ships, I can't imagine what could not be gleaned from a photograph that would be revealed by a examining a plastic model. Plus, models back then were crude and notoriously inaccurate compared to some of the current kits. I have heard "urban legend" stories of Russian diplomats supposedly buying these kits on orders from Moscow in the early 1960's. Tom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "MIKE EISENSTADT Subject: New Releases from Japan Gernot: Is it possible to provide information regarding the manufacture that released the kits of the Hermes, Glorious, and Wasp? And do any retailers that do international mail orders handle these kits? Inquiring minds want to know! Regards, Mike Eisenstadt ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Sab1156 Subject: Re: German Language - myth? Hi Mike, one part of your letter is wrong:It is "die Kriegsmarine", not der. Detlef Hartwig ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Tim Stoneman Subject: HMS HAVANT John Currie sought details of the colour scheme worn by HMS HAVANT when lost. I've seen 2 helpful photos: 1. National Maritime Museum (neg no D1676) appears in Capt A B Sainsbury, 'The Royal Navy Day by Day' (London: Ian Allan) 2nd ed, captioned 'HMS Havant arriving at Dover with troops from Dunkirk' (date not stated). It shows the port side of the ship. She appears to be in a dark grey (AP507B)? hull/light grey (AP507C?) scheme with the dark grey very badly worn. The pennant number is black, again badly worn (or even partly obliterated (perhaps deliberately?), and she wears one dark (red?) over two white bands on the after funnel. She was part of 9DF at this time, which Lenton says had worn one black over two white bands in 1939 so the top one might be faded black! 2. National Maritime Museum (neg no D1675) appears in John English, 'Amazon to Ivanhoe' (Kendal: World Ship Society, 1993) and shows her in her death throes with a bomb-hole in the starboard side. She is in the same scheme as above, although the paintwork doesn't appear worn, and the pennant number is clear and unobscured. Tim Stoneman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: John Currie Subject: Re: new releases from Japan Gernot you do not appear to have named the manufacturer of the Models????????? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Devin Subject: 1/350th scale grate source? I'm in need of vent and other types of PE grating for a 1/350th scale destroyer kit. The details on the kit were soft and misshapen, so I sanded it all down. Replacing cabling and doors are no problem with wire and GMM PE, but I can't find anything to do the grates with. Anyone know of any PE sets (maybe even rail road?) that would have appropriate items? Would appreciate part numbers, as the Walthers website doesn't picture the stuff, and I don't really have any hobby shops around to browse such items. Thanks, Devin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Bob Reddy Subject: Re: HMS Havant HMS Havant had an overall grey scheme in May 1940. I believe it was light grey as the contrast to her number "H32" was quite distinct. Anthony Preston's "Destroyers" on pages 84/85, has a large photo dated 3 May 1940. Hope this helps, Bob Reddy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "David Edgerly" Subject: Thanks on the PT Boat answers Thanks to John, Al and Steve for the great input and ref. list! I am now armed and ready. I think that I'll try an early Elco in the Pacific theater and (GASP) turn the Vosper into PT-73 for a laugh. I think LCdr McHale's boat is alive in Key West?! I must say that this list is a treasure trove of great information and some pretty good yarns on occasion. Thanks again. Dave E ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Fred Liedel" Subject: Prinz Eugen Question Having just received the new Warship Pictorials on Prinz Eugen and Myoko I would like too say well done to Steve Viper yet again. Can't wait for the Bismarck one. But I have a question about a photo in the Eugen book. On page 45 there is a great photo of the forward turrets. The thing I am asking is that on turret Bruno there is a large cylinder with what appears to be a pipe running from it back under the turret overhang. Does anyone know what this cylinder is for?. I have looked at all the other photo's in this book and many other books but this cylinder does not appear in any of them and for that matter on any other turret. Regards Fred Liedel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume