Subject: SMML VOL 2143 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 02:57:21 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: RIP Denis Campbell 2: Air Museum near Los Angeles CA 3: Site update! 80 gun ship of the line 4: Liberty Ship Models 5: Swastika orientation 6: Southern California Sights 7: Re: Missouri camoflage 8: Re: swastika orientation 9: Re: HMS Lion Plans 10: Re: Plans Copyright 11: Re: Swastikas 12: Re: copyright 13: Re: Missouri camoflage 14: Swastika orientation cont'd 15: Re: HMS Lion plans 16: Swastika Orientation and Franklyns? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: PE for 1/32 80' ELCO PT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane & Lorna Subject: RIP Denis Campbell Hi all, Today we received a message from Alison Campbell asking us to pass on the news that her father Denis passed away on the 27th Feburary. Denis was a long time member of SMML and posted here on a regular basis. We hope your new modelling room is a good one Denis... Shane and Lorna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: CJWTSN Subject: Air Museum near Los Angeles CA Someone asked about a large air museum in the LA area. It is Planes of Fame Museum in Chino CA. Largest Museum I have ever been to with over 150 WW2 aircraft, a thousand aircraft models, plus large scale ship models. CW ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Kerry L. Jang" Subject: Site update! 80 gun ship of the line Hi all, I have updated my work on building a 1:200 model of an 80 gun ship of the line from 1680. Although its a sailing ship, the technqiues are applicable to ships of any ea. I show in this update the first steps to building stern galleries - a major structural element of a ship - in wood, plastic, paper and brass. They are admiral's walks, only a lot more elaborate. http://www.nutsnbits.com/kerry_ambitieux.htm I also include a pix of HMS SUSSEX in 1:700. Check out the site! Best, Kerry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Vess Irvine" Subject: Liberty Ship Models I have both the Wilhelmshaven (1/250th waterline) and Halinski (1/200th) cardstock models of the USS Jeremiah O'Brien, unbuilt as yet. The Wilhelmshaven model is older and less detailed. The Halinski model is their latest release (just in the last month or so) using comprehensive state of the art computer technology in the design and artwork. It looks absolutely stunning. Drop dead WOW is the only way to describe it. Both models are widely available through most all card model mailorder firms. The Halinski gets the nod, with superior detail, printing, coloring and documentation, plus the underwater hull, plus a destroyer escort (UK Hunt Class DE in Polish service) as a bonus. Plus it is cheaper. Halinski and another firm, GPM, are transforming themselves into the Tamiyas of ship, airplane and armor cardstock models. Buy them at: http://www.papermodels.net/ (USA, owner taking leave of absense this month, $21.95) http://www.maquettespapier.com/ (Czech Republic, 19.90 Euros) Both mail order firms offer honest and speedy service in my experience. Check out the GPM HMS Prince of Wales in 1/200th as well (about $30). Unbelievable good looking model. No painting required with the quality 4-color offset printing on acid free top of the line paper. Models come published in oversized booklet form, easy and inexpensive to ship. I urge everyone to buy one of these models just to be able to see the unparalleled craftmanship. Can't go wrong in the $20 - $30 range. Plus you have an excellant painting guide. All paper models from these two publishing firms, and others, of the last 5 years or so, are excellant values. Models from decades ago are not quality. You have Graf Spee, Yamato, Roma, Bismark, Scharnhorst, WWI Battleships, submarines, cruisers, Zuikaku, Shokaku, Fuso, Sheffield, Arizona, Oregon, San Francisco, Indianapolis, Richelieu, Fletchers, Sovrenemy, Narviks, four pipers, liners, freighters, Invincible, Victory, frigates .... and the list continues with a multitude of titles not available in plastic. Only problem, out of production models can be hard to locate. I have been looking high and low for a GPM Roma and Zuikaku, with no success. One can hope E-bay. Contact me at vessirvine@chater.net if I may be of assistance sharing this discovery with one and all. Regards Vess Irvine Estes park, Colorado ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: D Wakefield Subject: Swastika orientation I'm not a big WWII ETO buff, but I did find this site that "might" be of some use in as far as Third Reich Swastikas are concerned. http://flagspot.net/flags/de193345.html It's at the "Flags of the World" website, and it appears to be at least somewhat well researched. Derek ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "William B Luther" Subject: Southern California Sights Dear Devin, Glad to here your are going to be in the neighborhood. I don't know of a air museum with ship models in the LA area, but the Los angeles Maritime Museum has a large number of small, medium and large scale naval ship models on display in their "Navy Room". The rest of the museum isn't bad either, 2 very large scale, cut away liner models, IIRC one is the Titanic the other the Lusitannia? Not to mention the sailing ship models and some interesting merchat ship models upstairs. There is additional info on the www.brigantines.com web sight, click on the "Museum" link. BTW, the Brigantines web sites shows what I do, no not the web site, the Brigantines! I design most anything that floats or gets wet and the last few years I've been working on these 2, 90 ft, square riggers. The structure, arrangements, systems and USCG compliance have be my main areas of responsibilty. If you visit the museum, you will drive by the SS Lane Victory, LA's restored and active Victory ship. Their web site is, www.lanevictoryship.com. Just over a couple of bridges, to the East, you will find the Queen Mary, she of course has tours, a museum and displays and some very good restaurants too. Tied up next her is a Russion sub (a Whiskey I think?) open for tours. Not far from the Queen is the Long Beach Aquirium, (not the official name, but it slips my mind at the moment) that is worth a visit. Those are all the maritime sites that come to mind at the moment, I'll post more if I think of any. Hobby shops? yes we have hobby shops too. Drop me a line at wbluther@cts.com if you are interested in visiting any and I'll put together a list to suit you time frame and travel plans. Have fun and let us know how your trip goes/went. Bill Luther ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: wem Subject: Re: Missouri camoflage Missouri's wood decks were still in Deck Blue 20-B at the time of the surrender ceremonies. They were cleaned and returned to natural teak on her way back to New York. Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Ron Subject: Re: swastika orientation >> I'm not the authority you seek, but I dimly recall that the swastika with the arms to the left (right) is an ancient (Native American or Viking origin) symbol for friendship. In this guise it was carried on the Indian war bonnets placed on the airplanes of the Lafayette Escadrille during W.W.II. With the arms in the other direction, it was the symbol adopted by the Nazis for their flags. I assume that it too had a ancient origin, perhaps from an occult source. << The swastika can be found in the mythoses Vedic India, the Germanic and Nordic countries and Native American. In the Vedic and Germanic/Nordic it is a sun sign, a symbol of cycles and seasons. It is related to the Norse rune jarre, for the letter J, the Loctite trademark symbol will give you an idea of the rune. There is a three legged type known as the fylkfot which is associated with Odinn and in this form is related to the Valknut (a symbol of death, literally the knot of the slain). Interestingly the symbol on the Manx flag is a fylkfot of armored legs. Any type of ancient swastika may have either straight angular legs or rounded curvy legs. As far as I know neither leg direction nor the angle of the symbol has any meaning but given that runes had differing meanings when sideways or inverted, it wouldn't surprise me if a swastika was similar. Bringing it back on topic, when used by the Nazis, the swastika was always on a white disc if the background was red (be it a flag, a painted marking on a plane, what have you). Ron Smith ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "jonathan webb" Subject: Re: HMS Lion Plans Steve Wiper Can I bring you to the attention of SMML Vol 2139 Index No 13. I would appreciate any information regarding this issue. I was not looking for a cheap option as mentioned. As Bill Livingston is the only source TO DATE I am grateful and do not appreciate criticism. I was under the impression this was an imformative and helpful organisation! If you have any further comments please return with reference to my original e-mail! Jonathan Webb ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Bill Livingston" Subject: Re: Plans Copyright >> Norman Ough's drawings are available from many sources without violating copyright. Try Abe Taubman for a start. << Hi Harold, I'm sorry, but I think you will find the plans available for the Lion Class from Taubman Plans Service are 1:144 scale RC Combat, not the Norman Ough plans at all. If you can show me any source selling Norman Ough plans Lion, I would be very keen to know. With regard to your other comments, I refer you to my answer in VOL 2142. Bill Livingston Cambridge UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Swastikas Thanks for the remarks about the swastikas. To Andy Vu: the terms refer to the way the center bars are arranged, one version has them crossing at 90 degrees to each other, with one bar horizontal and the other vertical. The other version has them crossing at 90 degrees, but both are at 45 degrees to horizontal. To other respondents: I must confess that although the ends of the Nazi swastika's upper cross bars are bent to the right in either configuration, I don't know which way the American Indian's (or Viking's, that's a new one on me) ends are bent. Nor do I know if the American Indian's (or Viking's) logo has the center bars horizontal and vertical or has them 45 degrees from horizontal, or if there is any significance to which way they are arranged. Back when it was a mini issue with the local Cub Scout den, over 50 years ago, the fine details didn't matter. If it looked like a swastika, then it was a swastika, I dare say that for many people, this is still true. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: raisingirl Subject: Re: copyright hello all.... Bill Livingston wrote: >> This is a difficult area. What happens to copyright if the thing that is in copyright is unavailable from any source other than a private collection. Perhaps one option would be to find out who holds the copyright, the estate of the producer (in this case Norman Ough, copyright date 1959, who died a few years ago) and then to find if it is possible to pay a fee which would then allow the commercial reproduction and sale. Not an area I particularly want to get into as I don't have the time or the inclination. << Although I'm rusty on the elements of the Berne Convention, and although I'm operating more or less on memory here (it's Saturday and I'm not teaching media law today), the way copyright law works here in the US, at least, is that the copyright is good for the life of the creator plus another 75 years. There's a different formula for people who died before the newer copyright law was enacted (1976, IIRC) that basically does much the same thing. After that, it's supposed to become "public domain," although the courts are now extending it beyond 75 years for stuff like the Mickey Mouse cartoons and are thus setting a precedent for indefinite copyright. Don't know what the regulations would be for copyright in the UK, but I can't imagine it would be terribly much different. If anyone knows more about this, please pipe up. But basically, it comes down to that Steve Wiper is correct on this point. jodie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Ralph Nardone" Subject: Re: Missouri camoflage Hello, all... The question was asked: >> O.K. So did the Missouri have Teak decks at the end of war surrender ceremony? Or was it still the measure 22 blue? Most specifically which decks were returned to their natural state and when. << The decks were still in their blue stain/paint during the surrender ceremonies. According to "Battleship Missouri" (Stillwell, 1996), the decks were holystoned a few weeks after the ceremonies (presumably during the ship's cruise to Pearl). There is a photo of said event on page 76 of the book. It is a photo from the National Archives (80-G-351246), so you should be able to view it. R ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: URUDOFSKY Subject: Swastika orientation cont'd 1. By "rolling" I meant that the cross is turned 45 deg. to the horizontal edge of the flag; with "horizontal" I meant that the hooks of the cross are aligned with the edge of the flag. 2. The emblem on the contemporary models of "Lützow" and "Hipper" is the usual white round disk with the black swastika, enclosed with a wide red circular border, similar to the NZ party pin; "Lützow's" cross is squared with the stern, "Hipper's" is turned 45 deg. to the stern. These models were surprisingly discovered in an office building in the former East Berlin. (Wiking-Modelle, by Peter Schönfeldt, Koehler Verlag, 1998, ISBN 3782207319). Schönfeldt states that the models must have been made in 1940, since these aerial recognition emblems were used only in April 1940, i.e., during Operation Weserübung - the invasion of Norway. By contrast, the 1:200 Wiking model of the Tirpitz, made in 1940 for the Laboe Memorial Museum, has no swastikas on deck. Ulrich Rudofsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "David Hathaway" Subject: Re: HMS Lion plans Bill Legally the position on copyright is clear - you can't copy something and pass it on, for profit or otherwise, until the copyright expires 50 years from the date of publication. If the copyright is owned (was owned) by Norman Ough you have to wait until 2009 before you can copy the plans. If he retained the copyright, his estate owns the copyright and are due royalties. But if the copyright is/was a company then the copyright may still be retained by a currently existing company. Either way you could be in trouble if pursued. There are moves afoot to make the copyright period 75 years (has it happened yet?). In practice, unless the copyright is vigourously pursued or there are trademarks involved, you won't be pursued. As you rightly say, what is permissable on the list is also relevant, the list could be shut down if it seen to be promoting illegal activities, of which breach of copyright is one. Personally, I think it would be a great shame if the modelling community cannot in good faith pass on material like your plans that are obviously unavailable elsewhere. As long as there is no profiteering and the people involved have made the situation clear as to the availavability and copyright situations I would support it. Goodness knows I have profited from this in the past. David Hathaway ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: David Sepos Subject: Swastika Orientation and Franklyns? Gentlemen: I had posed this question earlier (maybe 3 months ago): Did anyone else notice the orientation of the swastika in the center fold drawing of the Classsic Warships book on Prinz Eugen? The arms go left when there are pictures in the book that show them going right. Is this merely a boo-boo or is there another reason? Also: Franklyn wrote: Subject: Re: Swastikas >> But back to pure curiosity. Why were the Nazi Concentration Camp male prisoners required to shave, apparently daily? Some pictures show that even their scalps were constantly shorn. If it was for reasons of sanitation, why were the female prisoners' heads not shorn? How did the guards control the razors? Yeah, I know, this has nothing to do with ship modeling, but I have found SMML to be a veritable well-spring of information in the past. << The short answer: deprivation and control While not being an expert on Judaism, I do believe that certain sects require their male members to wear facial hair and long hair as a sign of full membership in the religious community. Very similar to the Amish sect of Christianity and their beards. How better to demean a captive held due to his religious beliefs (and that by nazi definition was held to be sub-human), than by taking his religious beliefs and symbols from him? As far as the razors, they were probably shaved by their "keepers" and it probbly wasn't daily. After a while, most lost the will to resist anyway, they were starving. It was obviously not for sanitation, as disease and vectors were rampant in these camps. The nazis were not interested in keeping these people alive! Even after the Allies liberated the camps, quarantines were in effect. And even with the massive influx of food and medicine, and the institution of sanitary procedures, thousands more died. The size of the problem literally overwhelmed the Allied medical and relief capabilities in the west, as they had not planned on encountering a situation such as this. That's my take, could be wrong, feel free to jump in. Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: PE for 1/32 80' ELCO PT I have five frets of PE brass left for a 1/32 scale 80' ELCO PT. If anyone is building the LINDBERG or older DUMAS kit, the PE will go a long way in upgrading the kit parts. One fret will do one boat. Included on the fret are parts for the roll-off racks, MK50 rocket launcher, SO3 radar, deadlights, cabin windows, instrument panel, etc. Price per fret is $65, including shipping to continental US. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume