Subject: SMML VOL 2144 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 02:57:33 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Swastika 2: Re: Missouri decks 3: Re: late Denis Campbell...Rendering Honors.... 4: Re: Kit wants 5: Re: NORMAN OUGH'S PLANS 6: Re: HMS Lion Plans 7: UK ship models 8: Missouri Decks at Surrender Ceremony 9: L.A area air museum 10: Re: Air Museum near L.A. 11: "Fair Use" Provisions of US Copyright Law (17 USC 107) and Research 12: Copyright 13: Re: Air Museum near Los Angeles CA 14: Re: Site update! 80 gun ship of the line 15: New "Silent Service" shows airing 16: Re: Swastika 17: Re: Swastikas 18: Re: Swastikas 19: Melbourne Model Expo 20: Re: copyright and plans 21: HMS LION Plans 22: SMMLiecon and Noreastcon 23: Re: swastika orientation 24: Re: Swastikas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "randy nugent" Subject: Re: Swastika Hi all, The original symbol comes from ancient India; it is actually a symbol which appears on temples, paintings, etc. which protects from evil (demons), and it can still be seen there. It is noteworthy that the Nazi symbol actually reverses this original symbol, something which protects from evil. Randy Nugent ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Keith Bender" Subject: Re: Missouri decks Her decks were touched up, repainted deck blue for the surrender so they looked nice but on the way back to PH they were stripped clean of paint, have several color photos from National Archives on this mater. KTB ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: stillmo Subject: Re: late Denis Campbell...Rendering Honors.... Salute to Denis and family from Ray in Canada....we render due and proper honors.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: ALROSS2 Subject: Re: Kit wants As many of you are aware, I spend a lot of time doing projects for BlueJacket Shipcrafters who manufacture traditional wood ship model kits. The annual meeting is coming up in April and I always present them with a list of "ought to consider" subjects for naval vessel kits. I'd be interested to hear from any SMMLies who are "into" wood kits as to your preferences. To avoid using up SMML space, please email me your suggestions at: aross@bluejacketinc.com Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: HGYL Subject: Re: NORMAN OUGH'S PLANS I fear that Bill Livingston's plea of mitigation does not stand up. Norman Ough's plans are freely available from recognised sources. In the US Abe Taubman lists the plans for HMS Lion at $25.00 (at least that is the price in the most recent catalogue of his which I have) and in the UK I believe that David MacGregor sells them. If my understanding is correct, David MacGregor is the copyright holder of Norman Ough's plans. Copyright is a complicated matter. The US Congress has just enacted an extension of the period of copyright. It is important to remember that copyright does NOT expire simply because the author is deceased or that the item is no longer commercially available. My local photographic shop, for example, will not make copies of my 33 year old wedding photographs even though I can prove that the photographer has been in the great photographic studio in the sky for many years. Please, if we want people to produce plans and other items for our hobby let us respect their copyright. Regards to all, Harold Lincoln ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Terry Wiltshire Subject: Re: HMS Lion Plans Bill and Steve I agree with Steve that it is wrong to copy material and deprive the originator of his due. Even forgetting for a moment the moral right of the author to receive payment for their work, the model warship world would be all the poorer without Steves products and he would not be able to afford to produce them without our cash. I also understand you point of view that if something is simply no longer available then you see no harm in making a few non profit copies for modeling friends. It may not be totally legal but..... And whilst on the subject of but's......Norman Ough plans are still commercially available. From, David MacGregor Plans, 12 Upper Oldfield Park, Bath, Avon, BA2 3JZ, UK (No web or e-mail address). They advertise in the UK magazine Model Boats, £4 for their catalogue. They specifically mention Norman Ough plans in their advert. Perhaps if you bought a few more of these wonderful drawings as a penance they might forgive you! Terry Budapest ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Terry Wiltshire Subject: UK ship models Mr. Coker The Admiralty no longer exists. It is now called MOD (Navy) which somehow does not have the same ring to it! The Old Admiralty Building is now used by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. For model ships in London I would try, 1. The National Maritime Museum in Greenwich (however I have heard they have gone a bit trendy and few models are now on display), 2. The Imperial War Museum which is south of the river and the Science Museum at Kensington. If your near Whitehall look in the window of the RN Recruitment office opposite Charing Cross Station. They usually have a ship model in the window. Also close by in, I think, St Martins lane is a very good bookshop with lots of maritime books downstairs. If you have time get yourself down to Chatham where there is the Historic Model Dockyard, I've never been but I've been told it's very good and has a great model shop and also Portsmouth is not far away with plenty to look at. I've head there are plans to open a model ship museum at Chatham to hold the Maritime Museum collection. Sounds like a great idea. Has anyone else heard anything? I replied on the forum rather than direct as I'm hoping other's may join in with anything I've missed so I can go looking next time I'm in London. Enjoy your trip. Terry Budapest ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Stephen Varhegyi" Subject: Missouri Decks at Surrender Ceremony There is a video series called the colour of war. This is an amalgam of colour film from around the world covering both the European and Pacific theatres in WWII. Recently I taped the last two episodes. One of these was the Japanese surrender ceremony, showing MacArthur's speech. The decks were definitely still painted blue and I might add it's a fairly light to medium blue, which might surprise some people. Steve Varhegyi ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Mike C" Subject: L.A area air museum I saw a local program on this museum recently; looks like a good one. They did feature several large-scale ship models. Palm Springs Air Museum 745 North Gene Autry Trail Palm Springs, CA 760-778-6262 Use mapquest.com for directions. Let us know if you go. Have fun, Mike C ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Re: Air Museum near L.A. "Planes of Fame" is a large air museum [I volunteer out there and build models for them] in Chino, at what was Cal Aero Field during WWII. It has a large collection, and you never know what might be flying on any given day. It is at 7000 Merrill Avenue, Chino. Phone 909-597-3722. There are very few ship models there, mostly a few carriers that are rather unimpressive builds. There is, however, a hangar devoted to Naval Aviation that has memorabilia from CV-6. If you want ship models, there is the Los Angeles Maritime Museum in San Pedro. I wouldn't recommend trying to do both in a single day, unless it is a VERY long day. They are not close to each other. Bill Luther's post in Vol. 2143 gives you a good idea of the San Pedro area. Ken Goldman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Bob Mills, The Aeronautica Shoppe" Subject: "Fair Use" Provisions of US Copyright Law (17 USC 107) and Research Personal ethics or morality aside, United States Copyright Law, in Title 17, United States Code (USC--see http://www.copyright.gov/title17/index.html), establishes a series of "Fair Use" exceptions that are not considered infringements of copyright in sections 107 to 118. Most pertinent to the discussion on copying of plans to build a model is Section 10. Here's a quote of the 17 USC 107 from Library of Congress Circular 92: >> § 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38 Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors. 38The Visual Artists Rights Act of 1990 amended section 107 by adding the reference to section 106A. Pub. L. No. 101-650, 104 Stat. 5089, 5132. In 1992, section 107 was also amended to add the last sentence. Pub. L. No. 102-492, 106 Stat. 3145. The Library of Congress US Copyright Office provides more information on Fair Use (Source: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html ), quoted as follows One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords. This right is subject to certain limitations found in sections 107 through 118 of the copyright act (title 17, U.S. Code). One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” Although fair use was not mentioned in the previous copyright law, the doctrine has developed through a substantial number of court decisions over the years. This doctrine has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law. Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair: 1.the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; 2.the nature of the copyrighted work; 3.amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and 4.the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The distinction between “fair use” and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission. The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.” Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work. The safest course is always to get permission from the copyright owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission. When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither determine if a certain use may be considered “fair” nor advise on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attorney. FL-102, June 1999 << Hope this provides a bit more light on the issue, at least from a use perspective. Bob Mills ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Chris and Kayo Amano-Langtree" Subject: Copyright Hi All There seems to be a serious misunderstanding about copyright due to the ignorance of the people who are claiming that Bill has violated copyright. The issue is fairly clear - you can copy articles and things for your own use. If you attempt to market or sell them then you violate copyright. Note this includes exhibitions where you charge for entry. As for copying them for someone for their own personal use this is perfectly legitimate and does not violate copyright. Asking for expenses is also perfectly legitimate as long as the expenses match the costs. Bill has a legitimate right to copy his set of plans (which if Norman Ough had passed on the copyright to someone else would actually rest with him). He is also helping fellow modellers - lets stop this mean-spirited debate and just enjoy helping each other. Just so everyone knows where I stand I do have a much acclaimed book in publication. I would like people to buy it but if they want to photocopy plans and the like I accept that. Maybe they'll buy it in future. All the best Chris Amano-Langtree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Richa5011 Subject: Re: Air Museum near Los Angeles CA >> It is Planes of Fame Museum in Chino CA. Largest Museum I have ever been to with over 150 WW2 aircraft, a thousand aircraft models, plus large scale ship models. << Planes of Fame is definitely worth the trip out to Chino, but I don't actually recall any "large scale ship models". There is a 30 year old display of 1/700 scale models of the Pearl Harbor strike force, but those are the only ship models that I recall...but if you want to see the finest privately owned (and for the most part - flyable) collection of aircraft in the world, it;s the place to go. If you are there on the first Saturday of the month, be there before 10:00am as they have a special guest program featuring a theme focused on one or more of the aircraft in the collection....then there is a flying presentation at about 1:00pm. Nat Richards ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Mark Brown" Subject: Re: Site update! 80 gun ship of the line Hi Kerry, Thanks for posting the link showing construction of your lovely timber model of the "L'Ambitieux". One of these years I would like to try something like this myself. For the moment I will content myself with watching your progress. I'm very much looking forward to future updates. Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Burl Burlingame Subject: New "Silent Service" shows airing Here are some upcoming new episodes of the submarine history show "Silent Service" on the History Channel. I can tell you that the one on Japanese submarines will have a fair amount on Pearl Harbor. The times given are for Pacific Coast: History Alive Silent Service Tuesday , March 18 9:00 PM-10:00 PM Wednesday, March 19 1:00 AM-2:00 AM Sunday , March 23 3:00 PM-4:00 PM Japanese Submarines During WWII, the Imperial Japanese Navy maintained a fleet of submarines that included the largest and most powerful underwater weapons the world had yet seen. From giant aircraft-carrying submarines to the smallest human-driven suicide torpedoes, Japan fought and lost a war of desperation. Their one goal--to destroy the U.S. fleet. In almost four years of war, they would achieve numerous victories and claim thousands of American lives, but we see how, in the end, the hunters became the hunted. TV G History Alive Silent Service Wednesday, March 19 9:00 PM-10:00 PM Thursday , March 20 1:00 AM-2:00 AM Sunday , March 23 4:00 PM-5:00 PM Submarines of Russia Since the 18th century during Peter the Great's reign, Russians have been students of submarine warfare. Focusing on the period after WWII up to the present day, we see that at the height of the Cold War, the Soviet Union boasted more nuclear subs than any other nation--a record achieved at great cost in both rubles and lives. Includes firsthand accounts of Soviet submarine operations in Cuba, launching a ballistic missile for Nikita Khrushchev, and the behemoth Typhoon-class submarine. TV G History Alive Silent Service Thursday , March 20 9:00 PM-10:00 PM Friday , March 21 1:00 AM-2:00 AM Sunday , March 23 5:00 PM-6:00 PM Deterrence from the Deep The story of the Navy's ballistic missile submarines or "Boomers"--from origin in the 1950s to preeminent status in the U.S. strategic nuclear deterrent forces. Today's Ohio class subs are the most lethal warships ever created. We also look at the Fleet Ballistic Missile--from the first generation Polaris to the Trident II. Behind the scenes, we examine the command and control mechanisms and the complex authentication procedures required to release one, or all 24, of the sub's nuclear missiles. TV G Burl Burlingame ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Swastika Thanks again, to the latest respondents. To David Sepos: I didn't see your inquiry of several months ago, nor did I see any answers. My recent inquiry was purely original, to me, at least. Your suggestion about shaving Concentration Camp prisoners makes sense. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "bert" Subject: Re: Swastikas I have been reluctant to enter the discussion on the swastika, the orientation,(that is, 45 degrees or horizontal) I have no answer for, the fact that the one on the Prinz Eugen, appears to be reversed to the usual german way i e:- arms going right, could be due to the fact that the photograph has been printed in reverse from the negative. Before you all start screaming! I saw a photo on a web sight that was of H.M.S. VINDEX. an escort carrier on which I served and they had managed to shift the island from starboard over to port, I have a film of Aircraft taking off from the carrier Glorious or Gourageous, (My memory is not as good as it used to be) and the serial numbers on the fuselage of them are definitely in reverse. obviously these films had been printed from the wrong side of the negative. 2 the national emblem on Finnish aircraft is a pale blue swastika on a white circle, horizontal, with the arms going to the left. 3 I am fairly sure also there was an SS panzer division that used as its "Wappen" a swastika where the arms were curved as if in a circle, and it was called "Wiking" or Viking in english. Buuut! if you know differently goferit.! (TaT). After thought coming back to seafaring matters it could be that the 45 or horizontal orientation of the swastika could be down to the local C.O. as was the case of certain ships captains not sticking to the laid down camo patterns or colours! (TaT) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: ModelFlags Subject: Re: Swastikas Hi Franklyn Because of our Hakenkruz, Naval and U-Boat Ensigns, which are some of our best sellers, I found the various postings on this subject very interesting which prompted me to do some online research. These 3 sites were the most informative ones I managed to find regarding American Indians and earlier origins of the swastika: http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html http://www.northvegr.org/lore/swastika/ http://www.geocities.com/angryindian/page5.html I hope these answer some of your questions. Brian ModelFlags.com [An independent authorised distributor of Miniature Cotton Flags & Signal Sets, Self Adhesive Vinyl Flags, Sheets of Vinyl Lettering, Individual Warship Lettering, Sponsors Logos and RNLI Bow Emblems manufactured by BECC Model Accessories] http://www.ModelFlags.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "David Clark" Subject: Melbourne Model Expo I attended the Melbourne Model Expo last weekend and there really wasn't much to report on in my favorite 1/72 scale. There were two excellent models; a Bathurst Corvette and a PT 109; inspirational to say the least. However, the highlight for me was meeting Shane and Lorna. It was great to learn that they are the same 'in the flesh' as their electronic persona indicates. David Hi David, Cheers mate - the cheque is in the mail ;-). It was great to meet all the other SMMLies who attended as well. We agree with you on the Bathurst & PT boat (which took out first prize), but did you feast your eyes on the 1/700 IJN Zuikaku - bloody amazing - it also took out first prize in it's category. Look for pics on the site in the next few days. Regards, Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Ted0330 Subject: Re: copyright and plans Is there not a provision in the laws for the making of limited copies for personal use, as opposed to distribution? I wonder if making one copy of a plan for the purpose of making a personal model is different from making a copy of a plan for the purpose of marketing a model. For example, a musician may make copies of music for personal rehearsal purposes, as long as other musicians do not play from those copies, and a book owner may make a copy of a page for personal purposes, but not for a class hand out. Ted Tsaltas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: John Currie Subject: HMS LION Plans So what is basically being said then is, if you were not lucky enough to have been able to get hold of these plans when they were available THEN ITS TOUGH LUCK. I cannot see what the problem is here, Bill has obviously gone out his way to help these guys and is not doing it for profit or anything in return and is being crucified, so i take it this is the end of the Help your Fellow Modeller as we know it and we go underground either that or we turn up at some model show and have all the HMS LIONS being completely different in detail, or even worse we take some model manucturers word that their product is 100% right (I am not having a go at the manufacturers here). Come on cut us some slack, I can go into the library in Portsmouth UK and photocopy from any book i want to so what really is the difference, Bill is helping promote and expand Ship modelling and the willingness and Helpfullness of this board to assist others. John Currie, CPO(M) Royal Navy P?@#$d off that i am not out the Gulf doing my job ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "John Rule" Subject: SMMLiecon and Noreastcon I had been looking forward to going to the Smmliecon in Buffalo, but regret that I probably will not now attend. The US, I believe now require me to obtain a Visa at a modest cost of $100 in order for them to have the pleasure of my company. Yeah right!!!! I am sorry, I never was and never will be a terrorist. I'm just interested in ships. Maybe when the terrorism paranoia passes I will be able to revisit the States without the $100 entrance fee. Sincerely, John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Arjun Sarup" Subject: Re: swastika orientation Hi, Ron Smith has hit the nail on the head with respect to the origins of the swastika. Given that Vedic India precedes that of the other cultures mentioned, the origins of the swastika seem to be of Indian origin. The 'swastik' is still used in India, on Hindu temples and on wedding invitations as an auspicious symbol. There are no political connotations to its use in India, and its orientation could be in either direction. It would be reasonably safe to assume Adolf borrowed the symbol from Vedic India as an auspicious sign for Nazi Germany. Though it may be considered as a political aberration, the swastik(a) is auspicious! Back to the topic, It would probably be better to refer to the same as hakenkreuz when speaking of Nazi paintjobs. Arjun Sarup Mauritius http://pages.intnet.mu/warbirds/warships/index2.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "RAY MEHLBERGER" Subject: Re: Swastikas I have been following the thread about swastikas on here and have not seen anybody mention that the Finish Air Force early in it's career used a bright blue swastika as a national marking on it's aircrafts. This was on a white disk and was horizontal, as apposed to Hitler's tilted one. The story I heard was that some Count...or royalty figure....from Finland visited the U.S. and was chaparoned through American indian territory. He became enamored with the swastikas he saw decorating teepees and asked his guide on the tour what the symbol meant. He was told "GOOD LUCK". Well, he later donated one of the first aircraft that the Finish Airforce got and asked if the markings on it could be the swastika that he liked, and had seen on his U.S. visit. This symbol was later dropped by the Finns in favor of a roundel...still in the blue and white colors...probably because of the swastikas evil reputation due to the Nazi's. I don't know, for sure, if this story about the Finish count is true or not....but it sounds plausable. The swastika on ships interests me, because one of the few ships...that this mostly armor builder has...is the Tamiya 1/350th scale Bismark...and I want to get the colors and markings on it correct. Gee....I even sprung for the PE set that goes on it. I hope to put it into an artist's jel medium ocean too. Regards, Ray Mehlberger Contributing Armor Editor for INTERNET MODELER MAGAZINE www.internetmodeler.com (sometimes ship modeler too...mostly submarines) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume