Subject: SMML VOL 2145 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 03:05:42 +1100 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Southern California Sights 2: Re: Hakenkreuz 3: Re: UK ship models 4: Copyright - a sanity check please 5: Re: SMMLiecon and Noreastcon 6: Re: Swastika 7: Re: HMS Lion Plans 8: Re: Copyright 9: Re: Swastikas 10: Modelship Museum 11: Re: more on copyright 12: Copying Plans 13: Re: Midway site 14: Japanees LST WW-2 15: Re: swastika 16: Hobby shops in Kaohsiung, Taiwan? 17: John Rule's US visa costs 18: Liberty Ship Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Richard Charlotte Marelius Subject: Re: Southern California Sights You may be thinking of the Palm Springs Air Museum, http://www.air-museum.org/. Air and Sea Models.com (aka Navismagazine) ran some photo spreads of some of the large steel warship models that they have there - of course, right after my wife and I returned from a weekend there. It's not exactly on the way to the Bay area, but it's only about an hour farther east from the Chino museum if you are going there. Another museum that might be of interest for those interested in other types of old mechanical toys, (though not ship related some of the artifacts were probably transported on ships) is the San Sylmar/JB Nethercutt museum in Sylmar, just off of Interstate 5 on your way north toward the Bay area. It has an extensive collection of antique cars and automatic and reproducing musical instruments. It's free, but San Sylmar requires a reservation, though I believe that the Nethercutt museum across the street is walk-in. http://www.nethercuttcollection.org/index2.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: Hakenkreuz A simple question: was the hakenkreuz oriented correctly per Nazi definition, on both sides of the flag (possible if the hakenkreuz was a separate piece sewn on) or was the flag fabric-dyed, so that only one one side of the flag (presumably with the traditional orientation of the grommets to the left) in fact showed the 'proper' orientation? Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "David Hathaway" Subject: Re: UK ship models The plan announced to create a large display of ship models in a single place is the result of some "joined up thinking" by the Science museum, the National Maritime Museum and the Historic Dockyard in Chatham. As announced the three organisations are going to renovate a building in Chathan historic Dockyard and place most of the three organisations ship models which are currently in storage on display. Some caveats apply, namely it won't happen for a couple of years, the models will be displayed "as is" and there are some very battered models in their collections (but still of value), I don't know if it is reliant on getting extra funding and that is usually the stumbling block with plans like this. Personally I think it's a great idea and I can't wait for it to happen. Having have the priviledge to wander round the NMM's model store (2,500+ articles) in a state of close to orgasmic delight, the sooner some of them are on display the better! Anyone know any more? David ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "David Hathaway" Subject: Copyright - a sanity check please People Can we calm down a bit please. The whole point of copyright is to protect the rights (and income) of the authors. If something is within copyright and commercially available it should be bought commercially (a note to a list like this should be one route to finding a supplier). If something is out of copyright (and can be confidently identified as such) it can be freely copied. More difficult is when something is not obviously copyright - copies of plans from the National Maritime Museum are copyright even though the plans themselves are hundreds of years old. Also items not generally available but within copyright should legally not be copied - even if it would be of great help to someone. I would suggest that people try hard to identify the copyright status of something before offering a copy to someone and treat the "grey" areas pragmatically. Otherwise we will all lose out. David Hathaway ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Bill Livingston" Subject: Re: SMMLiecon and Noreastcon Hi John, >> Maybe when the terrorism paranoia passes I will be able to revisit the States without the $100 entrance fee. << I have been to the USA twice this year already, the last time was last week. I wasn't asked to pay a $100 Visa fee. I would check your source, because unless this 'fee' came in this week, I very much doubt this is true... On a slightly different subject.... But related. I'm travelling to Korea on Monday evening and will arrive in Seoul on Wednesday morning. I will stay in Seoul until Saturday when I leave for Japan. Korea will be a busy time for me, but I should have a little more time in Tokyo. I was wondering if anyone knows of a model shop I shouldn't miss? Chris A-L, whereabouts are you? I owe you a beer. Bill Livingston Cambridge UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: URUDOFSKY Subject: Re: Swastika Swastika -Hackenkreuz left or right? I hope we can settle the swastika issue soon. There are several instances in books, particularly those which have lifted photos from other publications, where the prints are mirror-images. Even at the height of the Kriegsmarine's propaganda machine, a photo of the deck of the Scharnhorst shows the hooks of the emblem reversed (Kriegsmarine am Feind, Friederich Meier, 1941); later reproductions of the same picture are OK. As to the Kriegsmarine ensign: portside has the swastika always reversed turning in the wrong direction and starboard it is always in the proper orientation. That is necessitated by the mirror-image overlap problem of the design on both sides of the ensign. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: HMS Lion Plans Jonathan, I stand by what I said. I know I am right in what I said. Mr. Livingston actually called my by phone and we had a good talk. He is a good person and realized his mistake, as did I some long time ago in a very similar matter. As to the availability of the Norman Ough drawings of the HMS Lion, I believe David McGregor Plans in the UK carries these. Check with White Ensign Models to find this source, as they seem to have their fingers on the pulse of what is available in the UK. Basically, when looking for something, just try a little harder. That's all. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: Copyright >> Don't know what the regulations would be for copyright in the UK, but I can't imagine it would be terribly much different. If anyone knows more about this, please pipe up. But basically, it comes down to that Steve Wiper is correct on this point. << My point to the original post I made was that we all should try not to fall into the sort of thing were we may be making copies for our friends, of something that someone has worked hard at and is trying to make a living with this hard work. I used the example of my books to state this, because I found someone making photo copies for a friend who was too cheap to purchase a book, which in itself is really. The photo copies will cost almost as much as one of my books! Duh! Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Swastikas All the SMML people who rose to the occasion and shared your observations about the swastika and its variations have warmed the cockles of an old mans heart. If it has helped even one modeler, no matter how obscurely, then we are "just doing our job". I thank you for your efforts, individually and collectively. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: Modelship Museum >> I've head there are plans to open a model ship museum at Chatham to hold the Maritime Museum collection. Sounds like a great idea. Has anyone else heard anything? << I read the press release of the NMM in the latest Model Shipwright. Apparently plans exist to combine the reserve collections of modelships of the National Maritime Museum, the Science Museum, the Imperial War Musuem and the Chatham Historic Dockyard in a venue in Chatham. Called the Maritime Models Collection Centre, the models would be on show, excluding these under restoration or awaiting restoration. Plans also exist to include a restoration centre.The most probable location would be the No. 1 Smithery building and the target date is 2006. I have mixed feelings about this, for one thing it will be wonderful to have all those models in one location, furthermore it is easier to reach for myself, (I live in Belgium). You also avoid the Londen Area. On the negative: I'm always a bit worried when art or other collections are combined in one place, if a catastrophic event takes place (fire, flooding...) you risk losing a major part of, or even completely an unique heritage... Erwin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: raisingirl Subject: Re: more on copyright hello all.... Regarding copyright, some things caught my eye. Chris Amano-Langtree wrote: >> He is also helping fellow modellers - lets stop this mean-spirited debate and just enjoy helping each other. Just so everyone knows where I stand I do have a much acclaimed book in publication. I would like people to buy it but if they want to photocopy plans and the like I accept that. Maybe they'll buy it in future. << I personally feel the same way you do, but other people may not. There are *many* people out there who take their own intellectual property very seriously, or whose estates may take it very seriously as well. And while I personally don't have a problem if somebody copies something that I created, since I have bigger fish to fry, you never know when somebody might catch wind of copying and decide to call the lawyers. (Just look at any time on Hyperscale when somebody offers to scan a copy of an article from FineScale Modeler and Paul Boyer catches wind of it.) Copying stuff for personal use is one thing -- there are "fair use" provisions in copyright law for that. But copying it and distributing it is another ball game. John Currie wrote: >> here). Come on cut us some slack, I can go into the library in Portsmouth UK and photocopy from any book i want to so what really is the difference, Bill is helping promote and expand Ship modelling and the willingness and Helpfullness of this board to assist others. << With all respect, Mr. Currie, the problem (if there is one) is not with your fellow modelers -- it's with the law. The law is what needs changing in this regard. I seriously doubt that any of us who are pointing this out are intending to be mean-spirited. I'm certainly not. What I *am* saying is what the law says on this matter, and if there is a problem with the way the law is, then it's the law needs to be changed. Most of us are just trying to stay out of trouble with the law -- and since I teach media law as part of my duties, I have to teach my students this same point. The analogy I most often use to drive home the difference between "intellectual property" and "real property" is buying a copy of a film on videocassette or DVD -- when I buy a copy of that movie, I'm buying the use of that particular copy of it. This gives me the right to use the copy of the film, but it does not mean that I own the movie itself. The copyright stays with the people who created the film. Much the same is true for any other form of intellectual property, regardless of whether it's in production or not. There are several films I'd love to own on videotape or DVD, but they're not available in those forms, therefore it's similarly "tough luck" that I can't get them. But just because they're not available doesn't give me the right to violate the law. I'm not necessarily any happier about the laws of copyright than are you. But the law is the law, and to a judge and a jury (especially in today's *very* litigious culture, in which I have to carry liability insurance just to do my job!), one's personal feelings often take a back seat. The safest recourse is to not copy any of this stuff at all, except under "fair use" provisions which were very nicely spelled out by other posters. Please don't get upset at those of us who are merely trying to point out what the law says on this matter (I personally fail to see what's really been so "mean-spirited" about it), because any problem there might be isn't with *us* -- it's with the law. Jodie Peeler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Joel Labow Subject: Copying Plans As my contribution to (once again) beating this subject to death I submit that: A. If plans are available commercially it seems to me that it is both illegal and unethical to make copies for another purely so that that 'other' may avoid paying for them. Further, it's just plain dumb...if we want the Abe Taubmans and David MacGregors to remain in business to serve our needs we shouldn't be in the business of circumventing their legitimate need to make a profit. B. If plans are not available commercially then both common sense and the oft-cited 'fair use' clause seems to justify making copies for others on an episodic not-for profit basis. I clearly don't qualify as a member of the Honorable Consort of Pettifoggers and Sea Lawyers...but the whole thing just doesn't seem all that complicated to me. Joel Labow ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Robert Healy" Subject: Re: Midway site Alcon, The USS Midway restoration site is up. I think they can use all the help they can get... Sounds ambitious! Regards, Bob Healy http://www.midway.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Don Macdonald" Subject: Japanees LST WW-2 Hey all hope everbody is doing fine, Let hope and pray nothing gets started with what is going on in the world OK Now I was ask if I could another fellow modler with a Problem, OK I have done my research and cant realy come up with any good answers on this one. Dose any body know of a web sight that I we could go to and get some good pictures or Drawings or what ever would help in finding out information on Japans LST or something near that class of LSTs during WW-2. The one they are trying to fine is one called the T -3 Class??? MY self I have never heard of it untill today. This person has help me many times with some of the Modeling problems I have had so now I turnng to our fine board for help so if any body has any answers please get back to me, I would think someone can help me on this one?? ON this board or my E mail at donrcships@earthlink.net thanks and lets hope for the best for everybody Don That Portland Rustbucket ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Robert Healy" Subject: Re: swastika Alcon, Off the beaten track again... I remember reading somewhere that the Nazis, in particular Goebbels, decided that the Swastika would be placed in a position whereby it would "give the illusion of a wheel in motion". This would be a subliminal message to the average imbecile of "progress", thus good. Remember, these wre the folks that had a "Ministry of Propaganda and Enlightenement". It may have been in the translated Goebbels diary (which I lent out and never got back)or Speers book. I would have to do a bit of research to find the original osbcure statement/quote. Regards, Bob Healy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "William B Luther" Subject: Hobby shops in Kaohsiung, Taiwan? Dear SMMLies, I am going to be in Kaohsiung for a week in early April on business. Do you know of any hobby shops that would be worth a visit? Thanks in advance, Bill Luther ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Robert Lockie Subject: John Rule's US visa costs John Are you sure it isn't because of your evening cabaret performance at the first SMMLieCon that the US authorities are trying to deter you from travelling back there? Perhaps they are merely trying to protect the innocent minds of other SMMLies. Robert Lockie Swindon UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Lou Meszaros Subject: Liberty Ship Models Can anyone comment if cardmodel plans are accurate so that they may be used as a template for a wood hull version? Thanks, Lou ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume