Subject: SMML VOL 2165 Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:17:32 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: TV ALERT for New Zealand. James Cameron's Expedition:-Bismarck on Discovery Channel on SKY TV 2: Re: 1:400 scale photoetch for small ships? 3: Official RLM colours for marine aircraft 4: PE Liferaft query 5: Re: Commissioning pennant revisited 6: Re: Call signs of WWII USN vessels 7: Re: Was Musashi better than Yamato? 8: Altmarck 9: Musashi and Yamato 10: Re: Musashi vs. Yamato 11: Re: Was Musashi better than Yamato? 12: Ship Numbers Font Type 13: NASM Website 14: Re: Colours for HMCS Snowberry 15: USN/USCG Call Signs 16: Re: Photos of Dido 17: Re: Sinking of Yamato 18: CAM Ships cat's 19: Ship call signs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Next books from Classic Warships ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Nick and Joy Rogers" Subject: TV ALERT for New Zealand. James Cameron's Expedition:-Bismarck on Discovery Channel on SKY TV Hello from Godzone, Time to beg,borrow or steal access to SKY TV this coming Sunday night Kiwis.As in April 13th 9.30pm for two hours. See http://www.skytelevision.co.nz/index.cfm?pageID=13&highlightID=851 "Join Oscar-winning "Titanic" director, James Cameron as he demonstrates his deep-sea filmmaking expertise and state of the art equipment to conduct the first detailed external survey of the sunken ship, Bismarck. In May 1941, a furious British Navy bent on revenge relentlessly attacked Germany's "unsinkable" DKM Bismarck while on its maiden voyage. The wreck, still upright on the North Atlantic floor, lay virtually unexplored until Discovery Channel fully funded Cameron's three-week expedition. In this two-hour special, Cameron guides viewers on his unprecedented journey aboard the Bismarck to bring the ship's embattled final days back to life. The program uses Remotely Operated Vehicles (ROVs) to explore the wreck of the massive battleship." Well actually Robert Ballard found the wreck first in June 1989. I recall someone's description of exploring deep water wreck sites "as being like exploring a blacked-out multi-level department store with just a packet of matches. Also David Mearns Expedition explored both the Bismarck and HMS Hood wreck sites in 2001. Also see John Asmussen's superb Bismarck website as he was a member of James Cameron's June 2002 Expedition to the wreck. http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/bismarck_menu.html#diving Lucky guy he got to visit the wreck on one/some of the 12 minisub dives to the wreck. The doco's intro naval history is a bit dodgy but I hear the images are extraordinary. The theme is some beat-up about who sunk the Bismarck? The crew's scuttling charges or the Royal Navy? Regards, Nick Rogers Auckland, NZ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: PAUL TOSCANO Subject: Re: 1:400 scale photoetch for small ships? >> Re mirage 1/400 kits I have several of these kits,of mirage and I got some P/E for their submarines from NKR MODELS made by mirage, I do not know if mirage do etch for the destroyers and escort vessels. I think I found NKR via sandle's site << >> Mirage makes a series of dedicated photoetch sets by Mirage for the their 1:400 scale ship and sub kits. These sets are very well done, rivaling anything done by the other "mainline" PE manufacturers. These sets have been reviewed here and on some of the other online sites. They fit the kit - exactly. They are highly recommended. I have not found any other site than Squadron Mail Order that carries these products. In fact the Mirage website links to Squadron in order to buy them. << Hi, You can get the Mirage kits and the photo etched parts from this hobby shop in Poland. They have an English site and give nice service. http://www.jadar.com.pl/start-a.htm Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Stephen Varhegyi" Subject: Official RLM colours for marine aircraft The official RLM colour scheme for marine aircraft was an RLM 72 and RLM 73 splinter scheme with RLM 65 undersides. Unfortunately I don't have any colour chips. This reference was obtained from the Kookaburra series "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings". Whilst in some black and white photographs of the time it may appear that upper surfaces were one colour, if you study them very closely you will be able to discern the two different shades of green, which were quite close in hue. They were slightly lighter and a greener shade than the standard RLM 70/71 scheme used on land based aircraft. Believe it or not, some aircraft on capital ships were rumoured to have carried allied markings for deception. I have some colour artwork I could email as a reference if you like. Steve Varhegyi ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Bob Evans" Subject: PE Liferaft query If anyone has used Tom's Modelworks generic liner/merchant rail set 6012 (1/600 scale) I would be grateful for an explaination as to how the "lifeboat hardware" is used. Thanks Bob Evans ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Commissioning pennant revisited In addition to my earlier comments about Commissioning Pennants, my source recommended that I try Google to get more details. I did, and indeed found a wealth of information, which I pass on to SMML. When you reach Google, use keywords "Flags", "Commissioning Pennants", and "Homeward bound pennants". Be prepared to devote a goodly block of time to the search, as you will find all you need to know, and then some. But it will be a good investment if you want your model to be as accurate as possible. For instance, I didn't know anything about the Commissioning Pennants, as they do not show in most photographs, and on real Navy ships they are relatively small and are not easily noticed. But they are required to be flown at all times on U.S. Navy ships as long as they are officially on commissioned status, regardless of the circumstances (at sea, moored, in dry dock, undergoing repairs, etc.). And the locations of some flags (ensigns and jacks) are changed as a ship puts out to sea, or puts into port. This should be of interest to diorama builders. Few models have this pennant, I find. My 1:48 model of a WW 1 subchaser will, and soon. Picky, picky, picky? Well. yes, but hey, different strokes for different folks. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Call signs of WWII USN vessels Thanks, Ed. Reminded me of one of my signalman freinds favorite obeservation about the flag codes: BJ - If you Desire His response was always BL - When Ready!! It took a while for an AW(non-acoustic) like me to catch on, but I got the joke with little explanation. James Corley AAA Hobby Supply www.aaahobby.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Fernando, Yohan" Subject: Re: Was Musashi better than Yamato? Yes- Musashi and Yamato were of the same class. >> The Yamato blew up after a mere 10 bombs and 12 torpedo hits, << "Mere 10 bombs and 12 torpedos"?? I don't think many other ships could have survived that long to even get hit that many times. Both ships probably took equal amounts of punishment before going down and just tallying up the number of recorded hits doesn't tell the whole story. The damage of each hit is largely dependent on the location. If I recall correctly, the torpedo hits on Musashi were pretty well distributed on both sides and she eventually sank on a pretty level keel. When the US planes attacked Yamato, they purposefully concentrated their torpedo attacks on one side of the ship which is the reason she capsized after a "mere" 12 torpedos. As for the disparity in the loss of lives, Yamato went down alot quicker and her magazines exploded after the hull capsized. Musashi slowly sank by the bows on an even keel so there was more time to rescue the crew. Hope this helps. Yohan Fernando ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Chris Drage" Subject: Altmarck Hi Guys and Giggles, Does anyone have the deck arrangement for the KM oiler Altmarck at the time of her intercourse with HMS Cossack in Norway? If we can find this info then it will be short time before we see a 1:700 Altmarck available. Regards Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo kupu kaore e taea te karo (Te reo Maori) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: MRCSCARDON Subject: Musashi and Yamato When the US Navy sank the Musashi, the torpedo hits were on both sides. This in effect counter flooded the ship and prevented her from capsizing. When the Yamato was attacked, there was a concerted effort to torpedo only one side. The Yamato capsized and then suffered a catastrophic explosion in the aft magazines. The ships torpedo defense was simply overwhelmed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: spallen@fidnet.com Subject: Re: Musashi vs. Yamato >> Musashi was sunk in the Sibuyan Sea on October 24, 1944, after being hit by at least 17 bombs, 20 torpedoes, with a loss of 1,039 lives. The Yamato blew up after a mere 10 bombs and 12 torpedo hits, with a loss of about 2,000 lives. Why was the Musashi harder to kill than the Yamato? << The USN was kind enough to provide ad-hoc damage control for Mushashi ;-) That is, the attack on Yamato was more closely coordinated. All but a couple of the torpedoes were put in only one side of Yamato; the torp hits were split almost evenly on each side of Musashi, providing impromptu counter-flooding. Since she remained on an even keel, Musashi took longer to sink. Steve Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: Was Musashi better than Yamato? The attack upon the Musashi was a lessen in tactics for the USN. Musashi was harder to sink because the USN planes attacking the ship were doing counter flooding for the IJN. They were getting torpedo hits on both sides of the ship, thereby keeping it level. When the Yamato was attacked, all torpedo runs were ordered to be made to one only one side of the ship to cause it to capsize, which it did. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: rolie muise Subject: Ship Numbers Font Type Could some one tell me what the name of the font type used by the military for ships numbers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Rowe, William L." Subject: NASM Website Here is NASM's site: http://www.nasm.edu/ Look under Collections and Research for various unmentionables. Bill Rowe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Graham Preston Subject: Re: Colours for HMCS Snowberry For Bjorn Dahlberg, The Humbrol based colours for HMCS SNOWBERRY are: The overall base colour is Humbrol White # 34 (the base colour for Western Approaches Schemes, with "panels" of Western Approaches Pale Blue (Humbrol # 25 Matt Blue being added to the Humbrol Matt White at a ratio of 15 drops of white or more if needed, to 25 drops of blue), and Western Approaches Pale Green (Humbrol #90 - straight). Deck Grey would be Humbrol # 88, and Semtex being mixed from Humbrol Matt White (# 34) and Humbrol Matt Black (# 33), at a ratio of 50 drops of white to 33 drops of black. Hull Red is Humbrol Matt Brick Red # 70. The other alternative is to check out White Ensign Models web-page for their Colourcoats range of model ship paints. They have all of the above mentioned colours for R.N. and R.C.N. ships, already pre-mixed in the correct shades for Western Approaches Pale Blue and Green, as well as Deck Grey and "Semtex". They come in the same sized "tinlet" as Humbrol, and are enamel based. These colours are from the Colour Chart from "CANADA's FLOWERS - History of the Corvettes of Canada, 1939-1945", by Thomas G. Lynch, ISBN 0-920852-15-7. Hope this helps. Cheers, Chris Preston, Victoria, B.C. Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: John Fail Subject: USN/USCG Call Signs All Coast Guard vessels have call signs using the same nomenclature as U.S. Navy vessels. Their call signs start with an N. The W that seems to be siezed upon was never used on Coast Guard ships as a call sign. Commercial vessels such as freighters, tankers all used callsigns starting with W or K. The 327 foot cutters all started with NRD and the last letter was the first letter of the ships name such as Taney=NRDT, Campbell=NRDC, Bibb=NRDB, Duane=NRDD. The W such as WHEC, WLB, WPG etc. is a U.S. Navy designation for Coast Guard ships. In the years before the Coast Guard stripe in 1967, Coast Guard ships used a W in their hull number such W37=Taney, W387=Gresham, W32=Campbell. John Fail QMC U.S. Coast Guard (Retired) PS: I should have made clear above that only U.S. Flagged commercial vessels used the W/K as the first letter in their call sign. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Bill Livingston" Subject: Re: Photos of Dido >> I have recently been sent a port broadside photo of the cruiser Dido as in mid 1943. This picture matches the sequence of IWM photos numbered A21017, A21018 and A21019. In the IWM records, 21017 is labelled as the Sirius, 21018 I believe is labelled the Aurora and 21019 is labelled the Dido. 21017 is in fact the Dido and 21019 is labelled correctly. Is it possible that someone can visually confirm if in fact 21018 is a cruiser of the Arethusa class. If so then the photo that I have is the missing one in the sequence of three. As an aside it shows the camouflage pattern fairly well, and when combined with the other two the complete port side pattern which consists of four colors, can be established. The starboard side pattern is known to be different, and for which to date there is only fragmentary evidence. << Hi Alan, Are you looking for someone to actually physically check A21018 at the IWM? I have photo's A21017 and A21019 but do not have A21018. I was at the IWM sometime last year and bought copies of these as well as a number of other photo's of Dido (and managed to convince them that 21017 was Dido and NOT Sirius, so that particular photo at least is correctly labelled!). I am pretty sure the IWM's A21018 is not of Dido, if it was there at all, otherwise I would have got a copy of that as well, but I am quite happy to recheck next time I am there (should be relatively soon). I would love to see a copy of your 'A21018'. It would make sense for the 'missing' photo to have been Dido in a sequence of three shots (From a KGV Class, Howe, if I remember correctly). Any better idea of what the four colours on the Dido scheme where? I'm REALLY interested in that... Are we going to see a new Dido book in the near future? If so, put me down for one. Bill Livingston Cambridge UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Melvin Burmaster" Subject: Re: Sinking of Yamato The USN absorbed the lessons learned from the attack on Musashi and carried out the next attack on Yamato with the idea of concentrating hits on one side. Also assisting the USN that day was the provident hit on the aft 6" turret, the weakness of certain structural members as a result of the prior torpedo hit at Truk, and the statistically near - improbable hit on the same spot by two torpedoes in the vicinity of an engine room. (Someone chime in, didn't this happen at Pearl?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: andrew jones Subject: CAM Ships cat's Hi There I think you can find basic side views of the cat in the book "a modeller's guide to the Hurricane"... i cant remember the exact title, but they also release the Spitfire & a few other aircraft books ..it might be put out by SAM publications regards Andrew Jones Oz ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "David N. Lombard" Subject: Ship call signs From: URUDOFSKY >> I was told a long time ago that the K and W call letters on yacht and ship radios were divided by the Mississippi. Is that a myth? << Well, ships do move, so I don't know about that, unless you're talking about the home port. But, shoreside radio and TV do follow that rule. K is west, W is east. David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA N 33 deg, 48', W 118 deg, 5' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SteveWiper Subject: Next books from Classic Warships Warship Pictorial #18 - USS New Mexico BB40 This book has been sent off to the proofreaders. I have some of the drawings (a reproduction of the 1934 and 1944 Booklet of General Plans) left to finish restoring and also the centerspread illustration in color of that ship in 12/1941, in its Ms. 12/modified camo pattern. This book will have about 85 B&W photographs, 20 plus sets of drawings, a color illustration, and color photos on the covers. Price will be $15.95 US. Warship Pictorial #19 - KM Bismarck Still acquiring photos (400+ and counting) for this one and my partner in this book, Thomas Schmid of Germany, is working on a few Computer 3D CGI illustrations of different parts of the ship for this book. Mr. Schmid did the fantastic CGI work for James Cameron in his "Expedition Bismarck" that aired on the Discovery Channel. A CD or video is available thru the Discovery Channel on their web site. Get it! It is the best documentary on the Bismarck at this date. I hope to print these titles by June. Thanks, Steve Wiper www.classicwarships.com/books ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume