Subject: SMML VOL 2172 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 05:27:01 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Great Eastern. More info on this famous ship 2: Re: German "Balkans" Barge 3: Queen Mary II in News - British Triumph being built in France 4: More Potemkin-Info Requests 5: Re: Ogoniok kits 6: Re: Hull number fonts 7: Supply Ship Drawing Source 8: Re: Were 6 inch guns used as AA weapons in WW2? 9: Re: Great Eastern Reference 10: Re: Were 6" guns used as AA weapons in WW2? 11: Re: Hull Lettering 12: Re: Were 6" guns used as AA weapons in WW2? 13: Re: TODAYS MATHS LESSON 14: Re: Maths lessons 15: Re: Pacific Front 16: Amati Planet Working Bench 17: Re: Super Model - no, not Tyra Banks or Gisele either 18: Looking for 1/700 X-35 JSF ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Michael London" Subject: Re: Great Eastern. More info on this famous ship She was the brainchild of the famous engineer Brunel and was almost five times bigger than any ship built before. She was laid down in 1854. Because of her size and the rather primitive engines available at that time, she was equipped with two sets of engines, one set (3,400 IHP) driving paddle wheels and the other (4,900 IHP) a single screw. Her design speed was 13.5 knots. Gross tonnage was 18,915 and length 689 feet. She was launched for the Eastern SN Co as the Leviathan on the Thames by J.Scott Russell of Millwall on Jan 31st 1858 after earlier abortive attempts starting in November 1857. She had five funnels and six masts and carried sails, totaling 54,900 square feet in area, in addition to her engines. Her owners had been ruined by the long building time and had sold her to a new company, the Great Ship Company, who renamed her the Great Eastern. Whereas her original service had been intended for Britain - India she was now destined for the North Atlantic. The worry caused by her problems are believed to have contributed to the early death of Brunel. She started trials in Sep 1857 during which there was a boiler explosion resulting in six deaths. Further trials proved equally troublesome and she was laid up until the Spring of 1860 when, on June 17th, she undertook her maiden voyage from Southampton to New York. This service lasted until 1863 but was not particularly popular and the owners realised very little profit. The Great Ship Co. was liquidated in 1863 and she was bought in early 1854 by the newly-formed Great Eastern Co. She now commenced the most important phase of her career. Her huge capacity made her an ideal vessel for cable-laying and she was converted for this purpose starting in July 1854. During this conversion the fourth funnel was removed. Her first attempt at laying cable in 1865 ended in failure when, after laying 1,000 miles of cable between Valentia and Newfoundland, the cable snapped and the project had to be abandoned. In July 1866, however, she laid the first successful transatlantic cable, a feat for which she achieved her greatest fame. After some modifications she was used as a passenger vessel between New York and Brest to serve the Paris World Exhibition in 1867. She was then laid up until 1869 when she returned to cable laying, this time between France and the USA, and Aden to Bombay, following which she was laid up, her active seagoing career over. In 1866 she was used as a floating exhibition at Liverpool before being sold for use as a hulk. This did not come about and she was resold for breaking up in 1887. She was scrapped 1889-91 at New Ferry on the Mersey. The Great Eastern was not to be exceeded in length until 1899 when the White Star Oceanic was completed, or in tonnage until 1901 with the completion of White Star's Celtic. Michael London ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: David Gregory Subject: Re: German "Balkans" Barge This looks vaguely like a German Pioneerlandungsfahre, a close cousin to the more well known Siebel Ferry. The two towers would definitely be 20mm or 15mm gun positions. However, this doesn't match any of the real or projected landing craft listed in Groeners. Perhaps it is a converted civilian ferry? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Ned Barnett Subject: Queen Mary II in News - British Triumph being built in France http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=GHVLEMXDW111ICRBAE0CFFA?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=2577945 France? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Tom Ruprecht Subject: More Potemkin-Info Requests I am leaving lurk mode after the recent thread on Potemkin and the old Heller/Ogoniok kit. Brief intro: I am returning to the hobby after a 15 year absence, due to A.M.S. burnout and business responsibilities. Formerly did only WW I aircraft in 1/72 with lots of experience in conversions and scratchbuilding. Always had an attraction for predreadnought ships so thought I'd try a ship because I might avoid risk of AMS (first mistake). Picked up the above Potemkin kit (second mistake). Yes, it is an awful kit, but I'm way too far along to give it up and start on a 1/700 resin. I know very little about ships, learning fast but need some reference help. (Thank you Vladimir Yakubov and Jim Baumann for your generous help to date!) I am building him in 1905 mutiny garb, have a good article by Falk Pletscher from Jim and some poor locally available references (Marquette, MI, USA) only. 1. What colors were the various boats? 2. One of the powered launches is special- it appears to have a ram-style bow and a tube (in the kit and in the reference sent by Vladimir) at the bow. Is this a little torpedo boat? How interesting! 3. The recent thread on signal flags was interesting- any ideas on what I might do with signal flags for my model? 4. Color of funnels? In his article, Falk expresses uncertainty. My references and his say yellow, but he thinks possibly white from photos. In my experience "reading" photos from WW I, it can be dangerous to guess red and yellow from photographs of the period, due to the emulsion sensitivities of the two major types of film used. I don't know about film in Odessa ten years earlier. I sure would like yellow (it would look good!), but if so those funnels should look darker in the photos. My photos are poor quality and some are retouched heavily, but I think I detect a subtly different color from the rest of the upperworks (yes, I may be biased in hoping they were yellow...) If yellow, should all those ventilators also be yellow or should they be white like the rest of the upperworks? If yellow, was it actually an ochre like British and American ships of the period or could it have been a shade specifically Russian? I have seen modern paintings of other Russian ships of the era in which Russian upperworks are a more golden yellow tone. 5. Torpedo nets were apparently carried at that time in his service. The plans I have both show the booms but no hint of the nets themselves. I have access to an etched brass set from WEM for the Konig/Grosser Kurfurst shelves to model mine on. Would that be reasonable? Any ideas on what to make the nets from (they will be stowed in my model) The only close-up photo I have of any torpedo nets is the famous one of Seydlitz battle damage after Skaagerak. Are there any other references on the web for torpedo nets? I thank all of you for your patience! Rupe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: Ogoniok kits >> Ogonok (by the way....I see no letter "I" in the spelling of this brand name on the boxes). << Yes, but does the addition of the "I" in a transliteration more correctly represent how the word would be pronounced in Russian? Is "N" in Russian really an unterminated "n" sound, or is it actually more of a "Ny'eh" sound? Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: Re: Hull number fonts To: Chris Herron Thanks for your tip about ASTM F-906. Please advise how to access (from scratch) the "online standards services" to which you referred. To: Michael McMurty Don't feel bad about the use of figure styles on aircraft and on ships. I have seen cases where they were indeed the same, and others where they were not. It may depend on the era of the aircraft, for the ships have used the familiar "squared" style for a long time. But I do not recall ever seeing the shadow effect on aircraft. I was suprised to see "rounded" letters on the U.S.C.G. EAGLE, I had assumed they would use Navy style "squared" fonts. I suggest that a reason for the squared Navy style is the fact that repainting would be done by the crew, few of whom could be expected to be professional painters, and following straight-sided originals is easier than curved. Especially if the painters were suspended over the side in bosun's chairs. But thanks for the lead, anyway. That would be a good rainy day project, checking out all of TLAI's offerings. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: Supply Ship Drawing Source Windjammer Arts has some supply ship drawings and a bunch of other ships at this website. They also have prints and other items, all at good prices. http://wja1992.safeshopper.com/18/cat18.htm?255 God bless and Happy Easter. IHS, Ralph B ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Mackenzie Gregory Subject: Re: Were 6 inch guns used as AA weapons in WW2? In HMAS Shropshire, in the Pacific War when attacked by the Japanese Kamikaze aircraft, we certainly used our main 8 inch armament, ie, 8 by 8 inch guns in 4 twin turrets. Using High Explosive shells set to explode at about a range of 2,500 yards and controlled by radar, we used to blast off a salvo at the incoming Kamikaze planes. And quite a deterrent it proved to be. When combined with 4 twin 4 inch gun mountings, about 13 single 40 mm Bofor mountings spread around the ship, and two 8 barelled 20 mm Pom Pom mountings, we threw an enormous amount of lead up in defence of the ship. The 8 inch were particularly used in the Lingayen Landings in the Northern Philippines over January in 1945. Shropshire shot down a large number of attacking Jap aircraft, and did not lose a man to enemy action, in contrast, HMAS Australia our sister ship, usually in close company, was hit by one Kamikaze at the Leyte landings, and a further five at the Lingayen landings. All with a large loss of Officers and sailors. Now I don't expect you needed to know all of the above, but we were very proud of our Shropshire, and our crew at that time, and still are as a matter of fact. Regards, Mackenzie Gregory. President Victorian Division HMAS Canberra/ HMAS Shropshire Association. AHOY. Mac's Web Log http://ahoy.tk-jk.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Great Eastern Reference Coincidentally, I was surfing over at the USNI book store and found "Brunel's Ships" by Denis Griffiths and Andrew Lambert. About $60 for nonmembers. It has 3 line art drawings, 91 photos and 115 illustrations in 160 pages. Contains informaton on the Great Western, Great Britain and Great Eastern. Here's the URL: http://www.usni.org/webstore/shopexd.asp?id=19435 Marc Flake ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: Were 6" guns used as AA weapons in WW2? >> Somebody recently stated that USS Helena was the first to use proximity fuses on anti-aircraft cannon, in 1942. The Helena had 15 6" guns in five turrets plus 8 5" guns. Did the USN use 6" guns as AA artillery, or only 5"? << The US was working hard to develop a DP 6 inch (which went into service postwar on ROANOKE and WORCESTER) but did not use the 6 inch in the AA mode during WWII. Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: Hull Lettering As an aside, in the Osprey book on the Iran-Iraq war 1980-1988 I saw just tonight photo of USS KIDD DDG 993. Her hull numbers were in a grey darker than the hull, instead of white (and I wouldn't bet that she was in haze grey, but possibly painted a lighter grey) although still with the black shadows. I recall reading that US warships operating in the Persian Gulf during the tanker war repainted the hull numbers and painted over the black funnel caps and masts to grey because the edges of the light and dark colors made good aimpoints for TV guided Maverick missiles which the Iranians had purchased from the US under the Shah. Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Allan Wotherspoon" Subject: Re: Were 6" guns used as AA weapons in WW2? >> Somebody recently stated that USS Helena was the first to use proximity fuses on anti-aircraft cannon, in 1942. The Helena had 15 6" guns in five turrets plus 8 5" guns. Did the USN use 6" guns as AA artillery, or only 5"? << As far as I know, the only US 6in guns capable of AA fire were the ones mounted in the Worcester class CL's. I believe that the Helena fired VT from it's 5" guns rather than the 6" main battery. Allan Burnaby, B.C. CANADA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "bert" Subject: Re: TODAYS MATHS LESSON John wrote >> a torpedo is about a foot wide << R.N torpedo's launched from Swordfish etc were in fact 18 inches in diameter. Those launched from ships were 21 inches in diameter, I Believe that the U.S torpedoes were all 21 inch but not being an armourer I stand to be corrected. Japanese torpedoes were 21 inch but their "long Lance" torpedoes were 24 inches. German torpedoes were 550 mm which is about 1/8th of an inch larger than 21 inches, could/would this make a difference to the calculations? Yours Aye Bert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "bert" Subject: Re: Maths lessons Melvin that is why "smart bombs and fly by wire" were developed, to make ballistics more of a science and less of an art. Yours Aye bert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: wem Subject: Re: Pacific Front Hi Roger, Our good friend Bill Gruner at Pacific Front is still very much in business. However, he regularly advises everyone who wants to reach him NOT to use e-mail, as his e-mail is always jammed and at least 2 weeks behind. If you need to reach Bill, your best bet is to phone or fax. Best, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models Home Page for WEM, http://WhiteEnsignModels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Michael McMurtrey Subject: Amati Planet Working Bench Does anybody know where in the U.S. I can find this item? Catalog number is AB7396. Thanks. Michael McMurtrey ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Ouellette, Lawrence M" Subject: Re: Super Model - no, not Tyra Banks or Gisele either Franklyn, I have sent this same photo along to Shane and Lorna; maybe it will end up on smmlonline as a 'miscellaneous reference' photo! I don't know how the US Navy let this classified photograph leak out! Nobody is supposed to know how fast the Nimitz class carriers can go. The rumors about waterskiing behind the ship must be true! We'll have to send the picture to the Weekly World News. Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: Looking for 1/700 X-35 JSF I have been searching for one 1/700 X-35 JSF produced by Pitroad as a metal plane. I have checked with many vendors... Does anyone have ONE to spare? Please let me know... Thanks IHS, Ralph B ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume