Subject: SMML VOL 2191 Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:02:15 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: U boat Film 2: Bismarck 3: Kidd: Pirate Image 4: Power, speed, and fuel consumption of ships 5: Re: Bismarck Decks 6: Re: USS MISSOURI FUEL CONSUMPTION 7: Re: Webb Plans 8: Airfix HMS Daring 9: Re: USS MISSOURI FUEL CONSUMPTION 10: power and speed 11: USS MISSOURI FUEL CONSUMPTION 12: photo sources for Kure IJN diorama 13: Re: Paul Webb Plans 14: Re: Bismarck Decks 15: Re: P.A. Webb RAN Ship Drawings 16: Re: USS MISSOURI FUEL CONSUMPTION 17: Tamiya's KGV 18: gun tubs in very small scale 19: Re: Arizona colors 20: Re: 40mm Quad Gun Shields 21: Eagle Boats 22: Re: P.A. Webb RAN Ship Drawings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: AOTS - "The Fletcher Class Destroyer The Sullivans" 2: Airbrushes 4 Sale! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Miguel Costa" Subject: U boat Film Many thanks to all for your assistance, I get the film in ebay, I hope I can give to my father as a present for his birthday. A funny think of the film.... the submarine has an engine inoperative, an she can not be submerged, so to simulate the emerging boat, the sailors (my father one of them), has to throw water in the tower and deck..... old sailor tales..... Thanks another time, from Spain Miguel Costa Simón ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "ShipLover" Subject: Bismarck Hi Ken & list A great website to check out regarding the Bismarck is http://www.bismarck-class.dk/ That is the 1st site I went to, and it is from there that I found my way to SMML. There are many knowledgable people there and they are fairly quick to answer questions if you don't see an answer already on the forum. I am currently working on Tamiya's 1/350 of the Tirpitz and have received much help. Hope to see you there. Amy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Steven P. Allen" Subject: Kidd: Pirate Image Does anyone make a decal for the Capt. Kidd image painted on the stack to the USS Kidd (DD-661)? Ideally, I want 1/125 (yeah, I'm gonna do a "Blue Devil" conversion), but anything that comes close will do. alternatively, does anyone know of a clear pic of it on the web that I can use to create a decal or transfer? Thanks, Steve Allen PS still have the Heller 1/2000 Bismark for sale and still looking for those 1/350 a/c and weapons. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: billkaja Subject: Power, speed, and fuel consumption of ships >> But of more interest to me: something happens to fuel consumption above 16 knots. At this speed the fuel consumption curve breaks back upwards, it's not a smooth change but is quite sharp - as if there is an overdrive or turbocharger that kicks in to lift the speed above 16 knots, or extra boilers that fire up to provide the extra power for the GE turbines to lift above 16 kts. Being a mechanical simpleton and a new list-member I'm hopeful that there is a knowledgeable old salt (or an infracaninophile for that matter - love that word!) out there who may have enough knowledge of Mighty Mo's power train to be able to explain this. Any ideas? << Tony, I don't know about the Missouri exactly, but I do remember from my old Naval Architecture class that the amount of horsepower needed to propel a ship goes up as a square of the speed. If it takes a certain amount of horsepower to go 12 knots, for example, doubling the power might get you about 16 knots, not 24. And, as power rewuirements go up, you need a bigger ship to hold the bigger engines. Bigger engines need more fuel, so you need a bigger ship. Bigger engines mean a larger crew, which means more space for them. A bigger ship needs more power to overcome the increase in displacement, etc. etc. This is why the Iowa class "fast" battleships were so much bigger than the slower BB's of the classes that preceded them, and why the Montana class was going to be a slower ship as well. The power available also effects economical cruising speed. I was stationed aboard the USCG Cutter Harriet Lane, a 270 foot long cutter, powered by twin Diesels. Max speed was about 19.5 knots. Economical cruising speed was about 10-11 knots, which could be done on one engine. Bringing both engines on line at cruising speed gave us about 15 knots. This meant that a speed of 12-14 knots was un-economical-- it required us to run both engines, at less than maximum efficiency. If we had to get from point A to point B by a certain date, and it required an average speed of 13 knots, we'd make part of the trip at 10 knots, and the rest at 15. This used less fuel than just running at 13 knots for the whole period. (As an aside, I used simple algebra to figure out how many hours at 10 knots and how many at 15 it would take to cover a certain number of miles at an average speed of 13 knots. My math teacher would have been pleased!) I would assume the Missouri had a suimilar situation. Every time you have to light off another boiler, your fuel consumption goes up significantly. Hope this helps.... Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Daniel Bauer" Subject: Re: Bismarck Decks Hello Ken, The Fine Arts Model is an excellent model. The deck work is very good also. The paint scheme is good also except for one problem.Photo evidence from the wreck of Bismarck suggests the banner on the bow was red, and the banner on the stern had no border at all, just the circle and swastika. The paint on the hull should be dunkelgrau 51. The colour should have alittle more blue in it.The supperstructure should be Helgrau 50 a lite gray colour. WEM has the correct colours when you are ready to paint the ship. Look also on the various websites on Bismarck there are some good ones out there. Don't just use one reference. You will be suprised to find alot of misinformation about Bismarck's colour scheme's etc. It will pay to look over several books and sites on the internet. Happy Modeling! Dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Brooks Rowlett Subject: Re: USS MISSOURI FUEL CONSUMPTION >> the most economical speed for this great ship was 16 knots, at which speed she consumed 8516 litres of fuel an hour, or 532 litres per knot. (see http://www.ussmissouri.com/speedVSFuel.aspx) But of more interest to me: something happens to fuel consumption above 16 knots. At this speed the fuel consumption curve breaks back upwards, it's not a smooth change but is quite sharp - as if there is an overdrive or turbocharger that kicks in to lift the speed above 16 knots, or extra boilers that fire up to provide the extra power for the GE turbines to lift above 16 kts. << Probably additional boilers have to be brought online. The speed/length ratio (V over square root of L) is just over 0.5 at 16 knots, so there probably isn't a complex hydrodynamic reason, only the simpler one of needing more than four boilers starting at that point. Sumrall's book doesn't have any particular indication of a reason, either. There isn't an 'overdrive' or a turbocharger' on a steam turbine system, although there can be a superheat system - the boiler steam is brought back into the boiler in the area of the uptakes to absorb more heat, before it is sent on to the turbines. So that is another possibility - the superheat may need to be cut in at that point. Brooks A. Rowlett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Ken Hoolihan" Subject: Re: Webb Plans I have seen Mr Webbs drawings of HMAS Australia and HMAS Canberra in A3 format. I think he has also done HMS London and HMS Shropshire. The drawings certainly look very nice but I cannot vouch for their accuracy as I have not checked them against other references or photos. I have no reason to doubt them however and at only A$6 each for the A3 size, you can't go wrong. Ken Hoolihan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Connor, Michael" Subject: Airfix HMS Daring Hi All, Am making my first attempt at PE sets. I was hoping someone could help with a little problem. I am doing the Daring out of the box and fitting the PE. I cannot get any pictures of the ship as initially built so am unable to see where the verticle ladders are located from the main deck to the aft superstructure deck(where the aft 4.5 is located). Can any one assist this beginner. Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "David N. Lombard" Subject: Re: USS MISSOURI FUEL CONSUMPTION If you smooth that curve out, it's about what the power curve would look like as the ship approached its maximum speed, which varies with (is proportional to) the square root of the hull's length on waterline. More closely, the maximum speed (kts) is approx. 1.3 times the square root of the Lwl (ft). You'll often hear of a "speed-length ratio", which is the ship's speed in kts divided by the square root of the Lwl in feet. Note, I use "maximum speed" as if a ship can't go faster that this, it can, be it takes extreme amounts of power to push beyond that 1.3 factor. The physics involves the waves made by the ship -- at maximum speed, you'll see the crest of a wave at the bow, the trough of the wave at midships, and the other crest of that wave at the stern. This can be seen quite clearly in photos of displacement hulls are maximum speed. MISSOURI is 887 ft long, for a square root of about 29.8. At 32kts, the speed-length ratio is a little under 1.1; while a ratio of 1.3 gets you to a little under 38 kts. Anyway, the while fuel consumption "curve" posted at http://www.ussmissouri.com/speedVSFuel.aspx is fairly crude looking, it does show something of the basic picture. David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA N 33 deg, 48', W 118 deg, 5' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: ED LARYEH Subject: power and speed I realize we are all model makers so I will try to keep this simple As a ship moves, the bow pushes water away to both sides (and underneath!) After the stern passes, the sea rushes back in to fill the void. This is complicated slightly by the churning effect of the propellers below. The motion of the water creates a pattern of waves that we usually call the wake of the ship. These waves have much more influence than you might think. When a ship starts moving most of the power is used to push the hull forward. As speed builds up, more water is thrust under the ship and it tends to lift the bow. The faster she goes, the more the bow tends to rise. Its almost like the ship is trying to climb up on the bow wave that she, herself, is creating. How does this affect power? Well, the faster you go the more effort is directed to LIFTING the ship and less to driving it forward. Shaping the bow with a sort of bulb under the waterline directs some of the water flow over the upper surface of the bulb and helps keep the bow down. The point is, it’s not just the efficiency of the engines that causes the extra fuel consumption. At higher speeds 90% or more of the each additional HP generated is wasted in trying to lift the weight of the ship and only 10% or less goes to making her move faster. There is, in theory, an absolute limit on the speed of a conventional hull in the water and it is dependent more upon the length of the hull than on almost any other factor. So much for a first lesson in basic naval architecture. Hope it helps you understand why fuel consumption rises sharply at higher speeds. Aryeh Wetherhorn Elazar, Israel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Norman Samish" Subject: USS MISSOURI FUEL CONSUMPTION The fuel consumption figures at http://www.ussmissouri.com/speedVSFuel.aspx look somewhat contrived. It's not reasonable to suppose that the fuel increment from 31 to 32 knots is the same as 17 to 18 knots. When I fit an equation to the data to force it to a curve, the best fit said the fuel consumption was a function of the speed raised to the 2.3 power, as opposed to the 1.0 power implied from the unadjusted data. There are some data on WW1 destroyer fuel consumption vs. speed at http://www.gwpda.org/naval/wrndd001.htm. I looked at three of those data sets and found that the best fit formulas required the speed raised to the 2.6, 2.8 and 3.0 powers. Plots of the three showed smooth curves, not the intersecting two straight lines shown at the Missouri site. Along with Tony Mattson, I'm hoping one of the SMML Missouri experts will tell us the explanation of the surprising data at the Missouri site. Thanks in advance, Norman Samish ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Phil Stewar Subject: photo sources for Kure IJN diorama Hi folks. I'm in the early stages of planning a diorama with IJN ships based at Kure harbor, and am looking for photo sources that would be particularly good for this. Also, any tips on IJN shipbuilding and maintenance practices and equipment from the WWII era would be very helpful (books in English or with pictures of such equipment). Thanks for any help. Best regards, Phil Stewart ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: M Brown Subject: Re: Paul Webb Plans He did RN (Sussex & London) & RAN (Canberra) Hylands have the RN ones. www.hylandsbookshop.citysearch.com.au Michael Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: URUDOFSKY Subject: Re: Bismarck Decks There are a comprehensive volume of detailed photos of Bismarck models from 1:100 to 1:1250 at http://www.kbismarck.com/models/index.html and at http://www.bismarck-lass.dk/shipmodels/shipmodels_menu.html Extremely detailed 3-D computer assisted designs are also found at the site. Stefan Draminski's exceptional 3-D modeling of Bismarck's various structures are also found at his site at http://www.bismarck3d.prv.pl/ Ulrich Rudofsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Starline / Fleetline Subject: Re: P.A. Webb RAN Ship Drawings >> This message is to Graham Murdoch and anyone else familiar with the P.A. Webb series of ship drawings that we have been discussing here in recent days: does anyone know if he published plans of any of the British County Class cruisers that served in the RN or RAN in WWII? Just curious, though there may be a future project brewing here.... << Hi Mike, no actual COUNTYs but their very close cousins, he has however in the frameable A3 Profile & plan series: HMS LONDON London Class HMAS SHROPSHIRE London Class HMAS AUSTRALIA Kent Class HMAS CANBERRA Kent Class ...and in full planset: HMAS CANBERRA Kent Class 1/192 scale Hope this helps, Kevin@Fleetline ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SolidStump Subject: Re: USS MISSOURI FUEL CONSUMPTION >> But of more interest to me: something happens to fuel consumption above 16 knots. At this speed the fuel consumption curve breaks back upwards, it's not a smooth change but is quite sharp - as if there is an overdrive or turbocharger that kicks in to lift the speed above 16 knots, or extra boilers that fire up to provide the extra power for the GE turbines to lift above 16 kts. << The additional fuel consumed "per knot" at higher speeds occurs because the power required to drive the hull is not proportional to speed. For example, 16 knots may be achievable on 40,000 hp (depending on displacement) but 32 knots will require upwards of 200,000 hp rather than 80,000 hp for the Iowa hull. The turbines need more steam to generate higher horsepowers which requires more heat which requires more fuel. And yes, more boilers are lit off and/or "turned up" to get more steam. There are 8 boilers in the Iowa class. S. Scheuer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: EDBRIGDALE Subject: Tamiya's KGV I am building Tamiya,s KGV @ 1-350 scale with the WEM fret. I have a worry as to the pegs [for want of a better word] that are moulded on the upper bridge, what do they represent? The best I can come up with are supports for optical sighting, telescopes etc. Having studied books and plans I cannot get an answer. I am sure that I will have this cleared up by a SMML reader! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: John Kutina Subject: gun tubs in very small scale Recently a modeler asked if there was anything that could be used for making a mold for very small gun tubs. I have an ink pen manufactured by SANFORD - UNI - BALL - that has a 1/4 inch circular cover that could be cut and used to make a gun tub mold. The size may not be exactly correct but it would be easy to mold. If you need more info, contact me at: JRKutina@webtv.net I live in Seattle, WA, U.S.A. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: Arizona colors >> O.K. then. SO definitively if I am reading this right. The Arizona at the moment she was bombed was carrying teak decks in natural color and deck blue on the remaining horizontal surfaces.........???? << OK. Here goes! I just spent 6 days at the US Naval Historical Center and the US National Archives and amongst the thousands of photos I looked at and scanned, about 500+, I looked over the aerial photos of Pearl Harbor, taken during the attack (Japanese) and on 12/10/41 (American). Arizona absolutely had natural wood decks at that time. No question. Tennessee and possibly the Nevada were the only BBs with painted wood decks. Oklahoma had already capsized at the time of the photos, so no info there. Of course the steel decks were painted, but the color is in question. At this time, a transition to the "Blue" based paints was happening. My belief is that some had the blue based paint applied and some were still in the older Dark Gray 5-D. I think there is a chance that I may be wrong and that they were all in the blues. I base this information on a document stating that Pearl Harbor was out of stock of the 5-D and to use 5-S, later changed to 5-N. I have a color photo of the wreck of the Arizona, taken in February 1942 and it is very blue on the mainmast tripod and aft turrets. These are all the facts as I have seen with my own eyes. No biasness (is that really a word?). I hope to do a book on USN camouflage one day, but as you can see there are still many unanswered questions. Steve Wiper www.classicwarships.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: 40mm Quad Gun Shields >> Does anyone know what the "rule" was on when quad 40mm mounts in the U.S. Navy in WWII had gun shields and when they didn't? I'm not talking about the circular gun tubs the mount sat in; I'm talking about the shields on the mount itself. It looks like mounts on battleships had shields, and I assume that mounts on destroyers didn't, but I don't know about aircraft carriers, cruisers, and all the other ships. The WSW Georges Leygues has resin quad 40mm mounts with shields, and after looking at photographs it looks to me like the shields need to come off. << Art, It is different for each ship, so I recommend looking at photos for each. Example. I am about to go to the printer with my 19th book, subject BB40 New Mexico and she had quad 40mm AA mounts without shields. Steve @ www.classicwarships.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Eagle Boats I just ran across a source of information about the Eagle Boats, but am embarrased to admit that I have misplaced the name of the modeler who is involved in creating a kit for making an Eagle Boat. If the sainted soul who is working on this project will contact me off-post at fkbrown90@aol.com I will mail him this list, which I am sure will be helpful. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: P.A. Webb RAN Ship Drawings >> This message is to Graham Murdoch and anyone else familiar with the P.A. Webb series of ship drawings that we have been discussing here in recent days: does anyone know if he published plans of any of the British County class cruisers that served in the RN or RAN in WWII? Just curious, though there may be a future project brewing here.... << Yes. He did numerous County class cruiser drawings is many configurations. His plans are available again thru Hylands Book Store in Australia. Try a google.com web search for their web site. The plans are buried somewhere in the site, so be persistent! Webb drawings are quite good, I recommend them to anyone. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Graham Preston Subject: AOTS - "The Fletcher Class Destroyer The Sullivans" Does anyone out there have a spare copy of the "Anatomy of the Ship - the Fletcher Class Destroyer The Sullivans", that they would be willing to part with for a reasonable price? Thanks, Chris Preston, Victoria, B.C. Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Michael D'Silva" Subject: Airbrushes 4 Sale! Hi! While cleaning out my modelling closet over the weekend, I found three! airbrushes in my collection that I've never used. These airbrushes are new and in their original packaging. All prices are in Australian dollars. Buyer pays postage. 1 x Aztek/Testors 1000S Airbrush Set $40 + P&H Set includes: Single-action airbrush and hose; 12cc colour cup with removable lid; compressor and propellant can adaptors; general purpose nozzle; nozzle wrench & cleaning tool; pipette; Instructional video (PAL). 1 x Aztek A3205 Airbrush Set $80 + P&H (new price = $102 approx.) Set includes: A320 Single-action airbrush & hose; General Purpose Nozzle (.30mm); 15cc (1/2oz.) bottle; 20cc (2/3oz) bottle; 28mm Quick Change Cap; 33mm Quick Change Cap; 12cc top feed colour cup; Nozzle wrench & cleaning tool; Instruction manual & video (PAL); Compressor adaptor. 1 x Aztek A4305 Airbrush Set $125 + P&H (new price = $165 approx.) Set includes: A430 Double-action airbrush; hose with propellant can adaptor; General Purpose Nozzle (.53mm); 3cc & 12cc colour cups with removable caps; 15cc (1/2oz) bottle; nozzle wrench & cleaning tool; Instruction manual & video (PAL). Lifetime guarantee on airbrush body. For more information, please contact me off-list on my personal e-mail address: mdsilva@mira.net Thanks, Michael D'Silva Scoresby, VIC, Australia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume