Subject: SMML VOL 2193 Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 03:13:38 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Creating a Revised WW2 BB 2: First with Electric Lights? Gotcha in spades! 3: Mighty Mo' and the Fuel Consumption Mystery plus steps on hydroplanes 4: Re: P.A. Webb Plans: HMS Exeter 5: Kombrig's 1/700 "Slava" 1916 6: Re: Letter sizes 7: RN Ship's Crests 8: Re: Arizona Colors 9: Color of the battleships at Pearl Harbor 10: Re: Power vs. speed ratios 11: Re: Creating a Revised WW2 BB 12: Re: Arizona colors 13: Camouflage of Italian CA FIUME 14: CONSTITUTION'S World Cruise ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Mr. Fixx" Subject: Re: Creating a Revised WW2 BB Often thought of how powerful the IOWA class would have been with a 4th 16 inch turret... I know this is basically what the MONTANA class ships would have been, but still would be interesting to seen how a modified 4th turret IOWA or MONTANA class would have done in WWII... Just my 2 cents... Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Tony Mattson" Subject: First with Electric Lights? Gotcha in spades! >> What was the name and date of maiden voyage of the first passenger vessel completely equipped with Edison's new electric light bulbs? << Cunard introduced the first passenger ship to be lit by electricity (Servia, 1881). The Servia was the first steel ship to be built for Cunard, and it was the largest and most powerful ship at the time (except the Great Eastern). The Servia possessed compound engines generating a total of 10,000 horse-power. The passenger accommodation was also of a high standard and modern appliances such as electric lamps were introduced. The fastest passage of the ship was made in December 1884, when it steamed from New York to Queenstown in 7 days 1 hour 38 minutes. The Servia made its maiden voyage from Liverpool to New York, via Queenstown, on 26 November 1881. In 1889 the passenger accommodation was modified to allow for 400 1st class, 200 2nd class and 500 3rd class passengers. In 1899 it was used as a Boer War troop transport but resumed its usual service in June 1900. Its last voyage on the Liverpool-New York route was on 17 September 1901, and soon after it was sold. It was then scrapped in 1902 at Preston. Source: http://www.cunard.co.uk/aboutcunard/GetShip_Submit.asp?ShipID=143 The first installation of electric lights in a US Navy warship took place during the summer of 1883. Earlier that spring, seven electric power companies were asked by the Bureau of Navigation to submit bids for installing lights in USS Trenton, then currently berthed at the New York Navy Yard in Brooklyn. Only one, the Edison Company for Isolated Lighting, submitted a bid of $5,500 to install one L dynamo & one Armington-Sims engine complete to supply light via insulated wiring to 104 16-candle power lamps, 130 10-candle power lamps, and 4 32-candle power lamps. The ensuing contract also included 238 key sockets, 6 extra brushes, 1 automatic regulator and 1 dynamo foundation. Lieutenant.Commander. R. B. Bradford, executive officer of the ship, oversaw the installation of this equipment in Trenton between 7 June and 21 August 1883. Owing to the need to maintain the engine and dynamo, the system was only run at night. Other than minor wiring problems, the initial trial during Trenton's service on the Asiatic Station was a success and in 1884 the Bureau of Navigation decided to light Atlanta, Boston and Omaha. The plant for these ships were supplied, respectively, by the U.S. Electric Lighting Company of New York, the Brush Electric Company of Cleveland, and the Consolidated Electric Light Company of New York. In 1886, the Bureau of Navigation reported that "[t]his method of lighting ships of war, owing to the small amount of heat given off, the absence of disagreeable odors, and the more perfect illumination, adds much to the health and comfort of the officers and men, tends to make them contented and happy during their long absences from home and friends, promotes discipline and prevents crime." Source: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq117-2.htm Ain't it amazin' what a bit of electric light will do for a jolly matelot's disposition! Cheers from Auckland, where if you don't like the weather, then wait ten minutes! TONY MATTSON Scale Marine Modellers Association Auckland New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Tony Mattson" Subject: Mighty Mo' and the Fuel Consumption Mystery plus steps on hydroplanes Many thanks to all those who have spent a bit of time responding to my query. Although there seems to be a bit of disagreement about the cause of Mighty Mo's fuel usage at diferent speeds there is still a common thread running through that helps me understand a little better that great mystery called naval architecture! As to the question of steps on hydroplanes and seaplane floats? I understand that designers worked on stepped hulls from the mid-late 1800s but were unable to generate sufficient power to get the vessels up on their steps. The earliest steps were incorporated into hydroplane hulls from around 1910 and provided a break which reduced the wetted surface area, and therefore the drag coefficient. The first step hydroplane that actually worked was the PIONEER was an English boat, owned by the Duke of Westminster, and challenged America for possession of the Harmsworth International Trophy in 1910. Pioneer was powered by a 12-cylinder Wolseley-Siddeley engine, rated at 400 horsepower, and left the American defender, DIXIE II, in her wake, running laps in the 40 mile an hour range on Huntington Bay, Long Island, and travelling three feet for every two of DIXIE. Unfortunately for PIONEER, the engine overheated and caught fire. The fire burned the ignition wires. This caused the engine to miss and slowed PIONEER down. DIXIE II, a displacement craft, managed to overtake PIONEER and retain the trophy for the United States. But the victory was a hollow one, inasmuch as PIONEER was clearly the faster boat. One imagines that exactly the same principle applies to the step on a seaplane float. Many thanks once again TONY MATTSON Scale Marine Modellers Association Auckland New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Starline / Fleetline Subject: Re: P.A. Webb Plans: HMS Exeter >> P.A. Webb ship drawings, they have a listing for HMS Exeter. Does anyone know the date/fit that the drawing portrays? << Sorry Mike it's 1939. Kevin at Fleetline ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Kombrig's 1/700 "Slava" 1916 I have managed to lay my paws on Kombrig's 1/700 "Slava" and "Imp. Alekander III" resin kits and this post will deal with "Slava". Since "Borodino" sisters are somewhere near the top of my "all time favourites" list I was really looking forward to see how far Kombrig's designer progressed since their early and very basic "Kniaz Suvorov". Here is what I have found upon opening the box: Hull is a beauty to behold.... delicate, detailed, crisp and clean.... No flash and no air bubbles in sight. I have spend quite some time just looking at it with awe!!! It is only 0,5mm too narrow (which is terrific) but it is also 3,0mm too short (which isn't). Anchor beds are depicted wrong way around (the curved edge was near the steam and the straight one near bow casamates) but a judicious use of scalpel and a little filler should correct this problem easily. The bigger problem is a skylight and a bollard between the anchor beds. They weren't present on the real ship and removing them means recreating plank plattern in a very visible area. I have also a problem with with arrangement of various details (bollards, skylights ect.) aft but hey, maybe in this scale nobody will notice??? All the separate elements of the ship are delicately design and nicely casted, with no flash or air bubbles but after having gone into all this trouble Kombrig than crams them all into a sigle little ziplock bag so it is a pot luck just in what condition they will be at the end of their journey. The platforms of the main bridge are MOSTLY correct in shape but, for some reason, all are casted with solid bulwarks (which are too high to boot) when Slava's platforms all had two bar railings instead. The shape of the aft bridge platform is incorrect and the upper platform (where second raised compass platform was mounted) is missing alltogether. Notice thou that this platform is shown in the drawings of the ship on the instruction sheet!!! Now comes the bitching part so those of delicate disposition can stop reading right now!!! :-) Slava's superstructure makes no sense at all and instructions are useless in helping you in this matter. It all has to be seen to be believed!!! In fact, I challenge anybody to assemble Kombrig's kit using existing (unmodified) superstructure parts and instructions alone!!! Just for example: instructions invite you to place the forward midship superstructure with the raised funnel base to the back and long, lower part to the front. You are than invited to place a raised compass platform in the middle of the lower part. If you do it that way (using first funnel location pin for orientation and not forgetting to remove deck hatch which gets in the way) you will end up with funnels being WAY too close and the compass platform being burried somewhere under the main bridge!!! And if you think that it was just a simple mistake of the draughtsman, try to place the offending part the other way around.....Now it fights for space with the second funnel base and it is impossible to reconcile them sucessfully!!! Overall a beautifully casted model very badly let down by research, instructions and assembly problems. I genuinely doubt if anybody at Kombrig ever attempted to assemble this kit before or after it was casted or they were bound to notice the problems before releasing "Slava" to general public. Regards Darius Przezdziecki ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: Re: Letter sizes To: Keith Bender First off, Keith, the draft markers on the stem are not letters, they are digits, but in some cases Roman Numerals (okay, which look like letters) were used. I have seen something about these characters in a Bluejacket's Manual, but can't lay my hands on it right now. If you don't get the sizes from SMML, let me know and I will go through my paper data bank some rainy day. One thing that I have always been curious about is how the captain knows what draft value is indicated at any given time, for they surely can't be read from the vessel. Do they lower a small boat over the side? Do they lower a crewman over the side in a bosun's chair at the bow? I imagine those numbers normally below the waterline might be difficult to read if they should happen to be exposed when the ship is riding high. Comments, SMML? Look carefully, some applications have black characters above the waterline and white characters below the waterline. If you are going to use decals, procure those made by Woodland Scenics, obtainable through model railroad supply stores. Specify MG746 Model Graphics Numbers 45 Degrees USA Gothic Black dry transfer decals and MG747 Model Graphics Numbers 45 Degrees USA Gothic White dry transfer decals. These are the classic Navy style. They have letter characters also, but I do not know the specification numbers. The dealer can look them up for you. Incidentally, SMML people, these dry transfer decals are 5/16" maximum, but you can make larger characters such as bow numbers by dry transferring the largest ones, arranged as you need them such as in a specific required number, onto a paper base, scan and enlarge the image as required, and print the image on clear decal film on your computer. Be sure to spray the area with a glossy clear coat before applying the decal (to prevent small air bubbles), apply the decal, and then after the area is thoroughly dry spray the area lightly with a clear dull coat to "kill" the reflectivity of the clear decal film. Don't worry if there is no agitating ball in the glossy clear coat can, as there are no suspended particles in glossy clear coat to be agitated, so some manufacturers leave out the ball to save money, but neglect to mention it in the instructions. That information didn't come easily, one dealer was even on the verge of sending back his inventory of glossy clear coat spray as defective because of lack of the agitator ball. I convinced him otherwise. As Boris Karol used to say, "Experiment !" (pronounced "Expediment !"). Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "raymond guy" Subject: RN Ship's Crests Hi All The discussion on ships crests painted on dock walls prompted me to write about the real thing. As a youngster accompanied by my father who was a "Dockyard Matey" in those days, visiting establishments with naval connections. There was always a collection of RN ships crests on the walls.One place in particular that I recall was the mess in New Mole House Gibraltar, which was the single quarters for dockyard staff. There were one or two highly collectable items on the walls including the Hood and the Repulse along with many others. I had three original crests from the later "Battle" class destroyers, namely Barrosa, Corruna, and Matapan.I also acquired a ships crest of the Town Class Cruiser Liverpool. These now priceless historical items were left in the care of my relatives in Liverpool and were last seen by yours truly in 1956. When they moved from the old property I believe the crests were left behind in the attic of the house, this was sometime in the mid seventies. I hope the new owner on discovering these jewels realised the value and did not dispose of them as scrap brass!! I would like to acquire these crests again,obviously not the originals or the same size but accurate minatures of good quality accurately representing the originals. If anyone out there knows of a manufacturer of such items would they kindly point me in the right direction. I knew the three Battle Class destroyers quite intimately as all at some stage were drydocked at Gibraltar for refitting and my father being a gunnery specialist worked on all three so I often had an open invitation to visit the ships, and the best place on board was always the P.O's and C.P.O.'s mess where one was always royally entertained and well fed with "goffers" and other delectables from the NAAFI canteen. Yours Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: DRPREUL Subject: Re: Arizona Colors To add to Bobs comments, Knowing that the ships log for the Arizona were never turned in for November we looked at the logs of the Pennsylvania. In the log it tells us that the Arizona didn't leave dry-dock until the 14th of November. So the Arizona was in dry-dock from Oct 27 until Nov 14. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Billgior Subject: Color of the battleships at Pearl Harbor First at the time of pearl harbor all the battleships were painted in measure 1 camo which is 5d dark gray and 5L light gray deck blue on all metal decks and main decks were all natural teak. now two weeks before before pearl harbor the battlehip Uss oklahoma had her bow wave painted out only the Uss Nevada at the time of the attack had her bow wave. Also some of the battleships with the cage masts had dark gray all the way up to the fighting tops like Uss Maryland and the Uss Tennessee. West virginia and the California had dark gray painted on there aft cage masts half way up to the top of the funnels the other half light gray. This comes from documents that i have on this. measure 14 was used by the battleships from november 1940 to august 1941 when they went to measure 1. which used deck blue on all metal decks. measure 14 used dark gray on all metal decks. I hope this helps you guys out. Bill G ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "David N. Lombard" Subject: Re: Power vs. speed ratios >> Playing around with these figures led me to wonder about the effect of the "step" on the bottoms of the floats and on the hulls of some seaplanes. And how about hydroplanes? Any comments, SMML? << Hydroplanes, and smaller boats that run at much higher speeds are not "displacement" hulls, they are "planing" hulls. Planing hulls are very different from, and are not subject to the bow-wave phenomenon that limits the speed of, a displacement hull. A planing hull litterally runs "on" the water, with the force of the water on the hull lifting it up. When moving slowly, these hulls displace water suject to Archimedes' rule, the volume of water displaced is equal to the weight of the vessel -- same as a displacement hull. As they move faster, the hull form allows them to rise up and displace substantially less water. This is a dynamic effect only present at speed. David N. Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA N 33 deg, 48', W 118 deg, 5' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: David Wells Subject: Re: Creating a Revised WW2 BB "Katz, Gene S" wrote: >> Has anyone ever done surgery on or performed homemade SHIPALTs to a WW2 BB? What I mean is, has anyone (for instance) added a 4th main battery turret to a 3-turreted BB, or added a 4th barrel to a 3-barrel turret, or added more catapaults and cranes, or maybe increased the secondary battery and added radars even where none previously existed, or all of the above? Ever think that you are the "Grand Naval Architect of the Universe" and able to re-design and up-fit KGV, Bismarck, Iowa, Jean Bart, or Roma, etc. Or use a SWATH hull? Could make for some interesting designs. << I love to do this sort of thing, and I've made up all sorts of hypotheticals. It's lots of fun, it is a good use for "wrecks", and I learn about model construction techniques. One of my more "realistic" projects now is a 1/570 Gneisenau, as refitted with 15" guns. I'm using the hull splicing techniques I learned from my hypotheticals to lengthen the bow. It's working fairly well. Another one I'm working on is a modified British Minotaur (1947) CL. I started with an Airfix Belfast hull, and some Airfix Tiger guns. I'm learing quite a bit about construction techniques there too, and may eventually use what I've leared to make a 1/600 scale Lion class BB. On my "someday" list is making a Tillman battleship, as refitted during World War II. If you want to talk weird hypotheticals, feel free to contact me off list at dave "dot" wells "at" att "dot" net. Or we can discuss them here on SMML, if Shane permits. David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | http://home.att.net/~WellsBrothers/ Hi David, No worries mate - you can talk hypotheticals as much as you like on SMML ;-) Shane ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: Arizona colors >> We have 2 month period of time between the September directive and the dry-dock work and the repainting of the ship. With this in mind why would the ship be painted contrary to the latest specification? The big question is what the actual hue or paint color is! Using 5-O I found three sources that pretty well agree that FS 35164 is the color. 20-B pretty well checked with FS 35045. There is nothing like finishing a model and you find a week later from a new incontrovertible source the particular aircraft or ship should be in paint Scheme A instead of Scheme B << HUGE MISTAKES!!! Get away from these FS colors. This is a very big mistake perpetrated by Al Adcock of the Squadron "Ships in Action" series books. The FS (Federal Standard) system did not exist until well after WWII. You must use the then existing USN color system of the neutral grays and purple-blues just then (late 1941) coming into being. Finding "Sources" that concur on something that did not exist is silly. Example. The "Green" battleship in 1942. This was a bad rumor about the Indiana that turned into fact for quite some time. Another mistake is this belief in the Pearl Harbor battleships painted in 5-O. By just looking at the black and white photos, one can clearly tell that the tone of the vertical paint is WAY to dark to be anything other than 5-D or 5-N. A mutual friend who works with all of these historic photos from the US Navy as his career and has more access and knowledge than any of us, has shown me color motion picture footage of the wrecks at Pearl Harbor. This footage dates from early February 1942. Make no mistake about this. They are very blue! I have examined this footage and determined that there is no color shift, or water reflection to alter the image to make it this way. It is correct. This friend has also produced documents from October 1941, that state that Pearl Harbor was out of the 5-D and to start using 5-N. I have also seen the motion picture footage of the Nevada being put into drydock to be repaired after the Pearl Harbor attack. Now this one could go either way. She did not look very blue, but more toward 5-D. I am presuming that she may not have been painted into the 5-N prior to 12/7/41, which might be one of the reasons she, and Oklahoma, still retained the Ms. 5 (false bow wave) addition to the overall Ms. 1 camouflage. Also, the overhead photo I have of the Nevada, dated 12/10/41, appears that she had a painted deck and did not have her 1.1in AA mounts installed, even though the tubs were in place. All other battleships present at Pearl Harbor, except Tennessee, had wood decks that were unpainted. Please remember, I have seen all of this with my own eyes. I do not have any bias as to which colors were used. I am the type of person who strives for facts. Just the facts. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Paul & Renee Jacobs" Subject: Camouflage of Italian CA FIUME Shortly before her loss in 1941, the cruiser FIUME was camouflaged. I am looking for a drawing of the pattern so that I can do a paint job on a model of the ship. Can anyone help me here? Paul Jacobs ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: CONSTITUTION'S World Cruise To: Joe Poutre Thank you, Mr. Poutre, for an excuse to re-read the book about CONSTITUTION'S World Cruise. I have extracted the salient dates, as follows: 29MAY1843------Left New York 12JUN----------Arrived Azores 20JUN----------Left Azores 1JUL-----------Arrived Canary Islands 6JUL-----------Left Canary Island 1AUG-----------Arrived Rio de Janeiro 5SEP-----------Left Rio 25SEP----------Arrived Tristan de Cunha ?SEP-----------Left Tristan de Cunha 4OCT-----------Passed Cape of Good Hope 15OCT----------Arrived Madagascar 20OCT----------Left Madagascar 27OCT----------Arrived Mozambique 12NOV----------Left Mozambique 18NOV----------Arrived Zanzibar 27NOV----------Left Zanzibar 3JAN45---------Arrived Sumatra 6JAN-----------Left Sumatra 2FEB-----------Arrived Singapore 10MAR----------Left Singapore 18MAR----------Arrived Borneo 10APR----------Left Borneo 10MAY----------Arrived Cochin (China) 27MAY----------Left Cochin 5JUN-----------Arrived Macao (China) 18JUN----------Left Macao 19JUN----------Arrived Canton 27AUG----------Left Canton 13SEP----------Arrived Manila 20SEP----------Left Manila 16NOV----------Arrived Honolulu 2DEC-----------Left Honolulu (?)------------Arrived Mazatlan (Mexico) ?MAY46---------Left Mazatlan No dates given, but ship sailed South to Valparaiso and beyond 4JUL-----------Cape Horn No dates given, but ship sailed North to Rio and beyond 27SEP----------Arrived Boston, completing the cruise. Franklyn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume