Subject: SMML VOL 2199 Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 02:41:06 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: RN Corvette colours 2: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay 3: Re: converting scans using CAD 4: Re: USS Narwhal & Nautilas colours 5: Re: Mystery Span-Am model 6: American built sub chasers 7: Re: Mystery ship on Ebay - Piotr Velikij? 8: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay 9: Re: Decommissioned and stricken 10: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay 11: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay 12: Re: CAD question 13: A CAD Answer 14: I.J.N. FLEET SUBS 15: Re: USS Narwhal & Nautilas colours 16: Re: Pearl Harbor subs 17: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay 18: Re: A CAD question 19: Re: A CAD question 20: Re: A CAD question 21: Re: Help attack on Pearl Harbor 22: Re: Cad Tracings 23: Whats the drill for getting in touch with Taubman's Plan Service? 24: Re: A CAD question 25: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay 26: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay 27: Fiume, Königsberg and Atlanta - repost ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: WYNBERG Subject: RN Corvette colours What colour were Royal Navy Corvettes below the water line in 1941? Was it red lead or some other substance? Many Thanks, Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: ALROSS2 Subject: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay >> I am trying to win this model of a warship offered on ebay. It appears to be an 1890s vintage protected cruiser or second-class cruiser. << This is not my period, so I may be way off. It looks rather like a photo of PETR VELIKI, a Russian turret ship from the 1870s, on page 83 of Conway's History of the Ship - Steam, Steel, & Shellfire. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR Subject: Re: converting scans using CAD >> Since my knowledge of CAD is very limited I have a question to those who use it often: is it possible to scan an existing drawing into a CAD program and that, using overlay as a sort of tracing paper, trace the drawing onto the overlay restoring and correcting as you go??? << Yes, take your drawings to an architectural supply house that does printing for architects. Kinko's may also have a large format scanner. We have a store here in OKC called Triangle A&E. They have a large format scanner made for such projects as you speak of. Have them scan it in as a TIF file. Then import the file into your CAD program if it can import TIFs. CAD programs aren't too friendly with TIF files because CAD creates and reads lines as distances between two points (in 2D CAD, three points in 3D CAD). TIF files are created as many tiny lines making up the whole line you see on paper. So your CAD program will snap to any one of the many points created by the TIF files. They are a bit of a pain to work with in CAD programs, but it can be done given enough time and effort. The result will be a very accurate drawing after a lot of clean up and drawing time. I have been doing the same thing you have with my CAD program. Unfortunately, with the National Convention looming large on the horizon, my time is very limited. Any tips and techniques anyone here has had doing this would be most appreciated. I'm a LONG way from being an expert transposing scanned drawings to CAD, so please let me know if anyone here has had better success. Rusty White - #20181 IPMS/USA Pres. Candidate ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: USS Narwhal & Nautilas colours >> I am trying to find out what color the USS Narwhal and USS Nautilus were painted prior to World War II. In looking at the photos it appears to be nearly white though I imagine it must be lighter color gray. Also was the hull painted the standard red lead color? << The hull was painted a light gray, similar to FS 16440 Light Gull Gray Gloss, as was most of the deck. The numbers were white on a black background. From scaling photos of her near-sister Argonaut in the dry dock, the boot top was a 6" stripe with red antifouling below. From similar B&W photos, I have concluded that the red used was a brighter red than is given in the Acryl rack, being closer to insignia red, but the color differnece can easily be attributed to process, film age, print age, lighting or any of a number of other reasons. Of course, without authentic paint chips any colors chosen can be argued. http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h45000/h45666.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "D.Przezdziecki" Subject: Re: Mystery Span-Am model Jim, It certainly isn't a model of a Spanish or American ship. In fact it is quite a nice looking (judging by the photos alone) model of Russian ironclad "Peter Vielikij" which was laid down in 1869 and launched in 1872. Regards Darius ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Fkbrown90 Subject: American built sub chasers To: Any marine historian, especially French In 1917 and 1918 the French Navy purchased one hundred 110 foot long wooden hulled submarine chasers from the USA. One became separated from its mother ship due to bad weather conditions while being delivered ran out of fuel, and was given up for lost. The resourceful all-French crew rigged a sail from blankets, tarpaulins, etc. and proceeded to the Azores after being under sail for 46 days, just about out of water and food. I am interested in documenting the transaction and the history of as many of these vessels as possible. I believe there were about 20 of them still in service in the French Navy when WW 2 began in 1939, and about a dozen of them were interned in England when France capitulated in 1940. Did they sail as WW 2 Free French Navy, or were they taken over by the British Navy ? Others were in French ports, and may have fallen into German hands. I have a little information, very little, and am trying to confirm and/or correct it. I have been referred to a French book, and am requesting that some French (or other) naval historian please advise if Xerox copies can be made of any pages having information about these American made boats. I will, of course, pay the costs for the copies. I can arrange for translation into English here in Boston, Massachusetts, USA. The book is "La Marine Francaise et la Guerre 1939-1945", by Phillipe Masson, Paris. Tallendier, 1991, ISBN 2-225020440. Other published references will be appreciated. One chaser was in Ajaccio on capitulation day, can anyone please tell me where the port of Ajaccio is? Please contact me off SMML if you prefer, at fkbrown90@aol.com or through SMML, either way. Thank you. Franklyn Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "David Hathaway" Subject: Re: Mystery ship on Ebay - Piotr Velikij? Jim I have a reasonably firm idea it is the Russian turret ship Piotr Velikij (or Piotr Velikiy - check the spelling). It matches the diagrams of that ship which I have. She was launched around 1870, later converted into an artillery training ship and survived I think until after the first world war. There are a couple of book covers showing her at: www.warshipbooks.homestead.com/ Page2.html My first thought was HMS Devastation but she didn't have the flying deck aft, neither did HMS Dreadnought. Best guess is the Piotr Velikij. Good luck with the auction David ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Richa5011 Subject: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay It's definately not from the Spanish American War era. Nor is it Spanish or American. It does not really represent that closely any of the following but it is certainly in the style of the British Coastal Defense Ships of the Cyclops class (Cyclops, Hydra, Hecate and Gorgon) or the Breastwork Monitors of the Cerberus (Cerberus and Magdala) and Abysinia or of the 1870's. This model does not appear to have all of the recognition feaures of any of these classes...and may simply be done "In the style of..." All of the above ships have one funnel, two round turrets and breastworks. However, the model is not flush decked, as all of these ships are. The hull design more closely resamples later ships. Nat Richards ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Glenn and Kelly Neklason" Subject: Re: Decommissioned and stricken Hi All My understanding is the USS Independence (CV-62) is the only carrier that is in reserve, not stricken. I heard the Bush Administration was mulling whether or not to bring her back on line. As to the USS Ranger (CV-61), her anchors are now on the USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76). She successfully completed builder's trials earlier this month and is due to be commissioned here in Norfolk on July 12. Glenn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Vladimir Yakubov" Subject: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay It is actually a model of a first Russian Battleship - Petr Veliky, which had nothing to do with Spanish American War. It was built in 1870s and spent its entire career in the Baltic. Vladimir ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Tony Mattson" Subject: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay Jim Bloom writes: >> I am trying to win this model of a warship offered on ebay. It appears to be an 1890s vintage protected cruiser or second-class cruiser. I have searched through Hovgaard's Modern History of Warships and can't find a match. Only a one-stacker and the main turrets (no secondary armament) seem to be of the late 1890s vintage. Does anyone recognize her, or is it simply a generic or composite done from the modeler's imagination. << I'm no expert on these things for sure but the model appears to be a breastwork or harbour defence monitor from the 1880's. The small masts, steam power, main fore and aft gun turrets, central superstructure and low freeboard all point to the monitor type of warship that was typified by HMAS Cerberus and subsequent Royal Navy warships such as HMS Devastation. I've seen these things described as the first generation of modern battleships, and that with their development, naval warfare was stripped of its dash and gallantry, to be replaced with science and calculation. Hope this helps. good luck with your bid. Kind regards Tony Mattson Editor - Mailship Scale Marine Modellers Society Auckland New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SAMI ARIM Subject: Re: CAD question Darius, It is possible to scan any drawing and insert into CAD as a "raster image". You can use that as a guide to draw your plans on top of this image. There are also several vectorization programs, which could take these raster images and turn them into actual CAD lines. You can than edit and manipulate these lines in the CAD. Sami Arim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Ralph Batykefer" Subject: A CAD Answer Hey Darius, I used AutoCAD since 1987 and although you can lay the drawing down and take points from it for a computer generated sketch, it is not as "clean" or accurate. I took numerous plans of the USS Tarawa (LHA-1) and compiled them into an AutoCAD drawing. I used a dial caliper to keep it very accurate and used a graph square method to make the curves accurate. Yes it took a while, but it turned out more accurate for my abilities. There is probably some technology where one can scan the images in, but at my limited budget I could not afford one. In fact my AutoCAD software is from 1992... it was given to me when I worked as a self employed, part-time contractor as I worked on my master's of divinity degree. Hope this helps... God bless IHS, Ralph B ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "DUCKMAN" Subject: I.J.N. FLEET SUBS HAY CAP'N AN' ALL, According to "I-BOAT CAPTAIN, BY ZENJI ORITA, THEY WERE: I22, I-16, I-18, I-20, AND I-24. DAVID IN DIXIE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: USS Narwhal & Nautilas colours >> I am trying to find out what color the USS Narwhal and USS Nautilus were painted prior to World War II. In looking at the photos it appears to be nearly white though I imagine it must be lighter color gray. Also was the hull painted the standard red lead color? << Hi Richard, I don't know about the underwater hull, but anything appearing that light in a prewar photo is almost #5 Standard Navy Gray (Colourcoats US01). Cheers, John Snyder The Paint Guy White Ensign Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: joe.sus Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor subs The 2 man sub carriers were: I- 16, 18, 20, 22, and 24. 25 other submarines took part in the operation as patrol subs or for reconnaisance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Kevin Woodruff Subject: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay Jim: I'm almost sure that is it the Imperial Russian Navy Turret Ship Petr Veliki (Peter the Great)launched on August 27, 1872 and scrapped in 1922, Used as a training ship in 1905/6. After a major refit she was renamed Respublikanets in 1917. She was hulked in 1922 and then converted to a mine depot ship called Barrikada. Broken up in 1959. A picture of a model in the box may be had at: http://www.steelnavy.com/images/ComBrig%20Page/PetrV2311box.JPG Kevin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Doug Wilde Subject: Re: A CAD question Darius, Regular 2D and 3D CAD programs are not up to the task of drawing boats and ships. Why? Because they do not include tools for assessing the fairness of curved lines. For that you a programs such as AUTOSHIP or MULTISURF. Both are expensive: $2,500-$3,500. I used Multisurf for three years and it is an incredible parametric CAD package with, shall we say, a steep learning curve. A less expensive yet very powerful NURBS modeler is RHINOCEROS, at $895. One neat trick (that I have not used yet) of Rhino is obtaining a curve from curves in two views. You scan in the plan and profile drawings of a ship, trace and true the lines in both view. Then select the same curve in both views and the program derives the resulting curve in 3D. More information may be obtained at http://www.rhino3d.com/ While there take a look at the Flamingo add-on. I have no commercial interest in the program, just a happy user, currently lofting the hull of SS GREATER BUFFALO, later converted to USS SABLE (IX81). Doug ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Ron Subject: Re: A CAD question >> isn't something which can be easily done (IMO anyway). Since my knowledge of CAD is very limited I have a question to those who use it often: is it possible to scan an existing drawing into a CAD program and that, using overlay as a sort of tracing paper, trace the drawing onto the overlay restoring and correcting as you go??? << It's a bit more involved than that. Scans by definition are bitmaps, AKA raster graphics, while CAD is the visual representation of pure math, AKA vector graphics. What you want can be done but you need a good CAD program and something like Corel Draw 8 or higher (which contains Corel Photo Paint for editting bitmaps). You scan the image, import to Corel Draw, edit the bitmap and convert to black and white line art, save as a .dxf file then open that file in your CAD program (AutocadLT while expensive is the best bet here). The scanning and converting will blur and even lose some information but it beats trying to measure and draw everything freehand. In some cases you'll have to either take the average of what's been scanned and converted to a line or take your best guess. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Randy Ward Subject: Re: A CAD question >> is it possible to scan an existing drawing into a CAD program and that, using overlay as a sort of tracing paper, trace the drawing onto the overlay restoring and correcting as you go??? << I'm just learning CAD myself, but I seem to recall that Adobe PhotoShop has this ability. 'Can't remember if Adobe Illustrator has a similar capability. Adobe Streamline is supposed to take a scan and convert it into a vector-based drawing that can be edited, but in years of playing with it, I never could get the right settings. When I get a bad drawing, I generally scan it as grayscale, then edit/clean it up in Paint Shop Pro. If you reduce the color palette to 256 colors, it's easy to clean up. Randy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Ken Goldman" Subject: Re: Help attack on Pearl Harbor The five mother subs were I-16, I-18, I-20, I-22 and I-24. Reference used is ADVANCE FORCE PEARL HARBOR by fellow SMMLer Burl Burlingame. Ken Goldman ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: Cad Tracings >> is it possible to scan an existing drawing into a CAD program and that, using overlay as a sort of tracing paper, trace the drawing onto the overlay restoring and correcting as you go??? << Possible, yes. But extremely time consuming and tedious. Dimensions are not always 100% accurate due to many factors like original line width, original drawing accuracy, photocopy stretching, etc. A lot of larger corporations do this very thing, but they have massive amounts of computers and drawing techs working full time with original specs to go by. You'll have to find a decent sized scanner as well, or do it in pieces. There was a product by AutoCAD a few years back that tried to trace the original scan, didn't work very well. I don't know if they ever improved it. The actual process is pretty simple, scan the drawing and import it. Put it as a background layer and just start drawing. I do it all the time with CorelDraw. Have fun! Darren Scannell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: EDWARD GRUNE Subject: Whats the drill for getting in touch with Taubman's Plan Service? Whats the drill for getting in touch with Taubman's Plan Service? Two months ago I placed an order using the Taubman's online shopping cart system. I paid with a credit card. The following day I received an email confirming my order. Fast forward four weeks. I have heard nothing. I have neither received my order or any communication that the order was incomplete or back ordered. Nothing. I followed the procedure on the "Contact" page at the Taubmans site to contact them via a snail-mail letter. I wrote a letter to Mr Taubman inquirng as to the status of the order, including a copy of the original confirmation email, and sent it off by mail. Fast forward another 3 weeks. I still haven't heard anything on the order status. I sent an email to the webmaster that runs the 'Friends of Abe Taubman - Online ordering system', hoping that he could provide some assitance in determining the status of the order. I received an automatically generated responce to my email saying that they'd get back to me. It has now been 8 weeks since I placed the original order and I still have not heard anything substantive from either Mr Taubman or any of the 'Friends of Abe'. Whats the drill on successfully contacting him? If anyone has contact with him please forward this message to him. Ed Mansfield, TX ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: George Colleen Hargreaves Subject: Re: A CAD question Hi Darius, I use a CAD program call Micrographix Designer, it is now available from Corel. This is a vector based drawing program rather than a frame and wire based program. With vector based graphics you see your drawing as you go. I have a second story railing that looks down on to the main floor below. I place the plan on the main floor with half under the railing. By leaning over the railing I can take a digital photo directly down onto the plan. This avoids distortion. I then import the plan into Designer as a jpeg. I rotate the jpeg to get horizontal in agreement with a line in the CAD program. Then just as you said it is only a mater of redrawing the lines. I do not use the 'trace' function as clean continuous lines are not generated. Once the drawing is complete, I group into a single item. I can then stretch or shrink the drawing to the scale I wish to work in. Cheers, George ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "gthorsby" Subject: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay This is confirmed as what I would think is a thired class cruiser. Not a Naval expert but a collector of photos of the period I have attached a bitmap of the image for this and it appears to be a converted plated sail and steam ship. I have no other information from my computer. Thanks. Gordon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Lars Scharff" Subject: Re: Mystery Span-Am model warship on E-Bay This ship is most probably the Russian turret ship Petr Veliki, built 1869-1876. Her armament was 4 12in and 6 3.4 in. Best regards Lars Scharff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Lars Scharff" Subject: Fiume, Königsberg and Atlanta - repost Hi all, Fiume's camouflage in 1941: Profile Morskie 17 Zara contains a camouflage scheme of Fiume, but I can't commend on its accuracy. Does somebody know the colour of the funnels of the German light cruiser Königsberg in 1929/1930? In some photos Königsberg had much darker funnels than the superstructure, e.g. in 'Vom Original zum Modell: Die Leichten Kreuzer der Königsberg-Klasse' by Koop and Schmolke (p. 4, 25) and in 'Krazowniki Typu K cz.1' by Cieslak and Danielewicz (p. 8). This is called by some authors an experimental colour scheme. What was the armament of Königsberg 1929/30? She didn't got the 8,8 cm SK L/75 C 25 twins, which were planned, but only installed in Köln. Königsberg had two old 8,8 cm L/45 C 13. But there were also four platforms for 3,7 cm twins, were later two additional 8,8 cm were installed. In some plans this guns are shown and also on the model in the Deutsche Museum in Munich. But I can't see them on the photos. Is it correct, that Königsberg had as built no light AA armament? In PSM 28 is a photo of the protected cruiser USS Atlanta on the inside cover. Atlanta is shown with no sailing rig. The gun on the forecastle looks different from the original 8 in and it is not in a barbette. What type of gun was this? Did Boston had also her rig reduced at the time of the Battle of Cavite/Manila in 1898? Best regards Lars Scharff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume