Subject: SMML VOL 2215 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:33:46 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Starting ship modeling club? 2: Re: starting a model club 3: Re: Warship design 4: Randy Ward - IPMS Club 5: Re: IPMS 6: Re: Starting ship modeling club? 7: Re: Typhoon Louise 8: Re: Ship modelers in general and IPMS/USA 9: Scharnhorst Mooring 10: Re: IPMS/USA member minimum 11: Re: Dennis Disbrow's Walk to the Washington Navy Yard Museum 12: Re: starting a club 13: hull of the s.s. united states 14: Re: Black lighthouses 15: Re: IMPS Ship Judging Problems 16: Re: Lighthouses 17: Starting a ship model club 18: Re: IPMS vs RC judging 19: Re: USS Macon 20: USS Macon, missile on fantail 21: USS Macon, missile on fantail 22: Saratoga plans 23: Wisteria or?? 24: IPMS "Boat Club" 25: 1/72 US Gato/Balao Hull in Australia? 26: Re: Hawk OHKA 27: Re: USS Macon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Ives100 Subject: Re: Starting ship modeling club? >> OK, with all of the talk of IPMS, I'm going to revisit an old dilemna... I live about 35 miles from the Atlantic Ocean. New England has a fairly large number of people. There are two IPMS chapters within a 30-minute drive << Where are you in New England? I know there are several ship modelers in the Southern New England area; perhaps there might be a possibility? Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: GKingzett Subject: Re: starting a model club Randy, you didn't say where you live in New England, and the Atlantic Ocean is a big ocean, so it is hard to give you specific advice, but the best idea is this: If you want to talk about ships, join a ship modelers' club. There at least 5 of them I am aware of in New England, full of nautical enthusiasts of all kinds. The prejudice against plastic and miniatures has long since disappeared. If you have information, skill or research to offer, or just want to listen, you will be welcome at their club meetings. And if you really get interested, you might want to join the Nautical Research Guild. That is a world wide organization of knowlegeable folks (male and female), who welcome new members. I bet that half the models on the tables at the last NRG annual conference were plastic. Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Roger Chesneau Subject: Re: Warship design Hello all The discussion about carrier design has been fascinating, as are all topics raised in SMML.. The argument rages on, and always will. I make one observation. There is no definitive answer here, simply because warship design - indeed ship design in general - is, almost always, an evolutionary process, not a revolutionary one: naval architects proceed from the known to the unknown, utilising their experience. This is particularly the case with such basics as hull forms, the installation of machinery, etc. Aircraft carriers are no different: all have elements in their design which reflect, or even duplicate, earlier practice. The point in the Hermes-versus-Hosho argument is whether, when their keels were laid, the end products were essentially complete in terms of their design and finalised in terms of their intended role - i.e., were the ships envisaged as aircraft carriers on that date? We are certain that, for Hermes, this was the case; with Hosho, there is strong evidence to suggest that it wasn't. Hermes' role was that of an aircraft-carrying scout, not an attack carrier per se, and therefore it is hardly surprising that, given the Royal Navy's war plans of the day, her design incorporated elements of experience with light cruisers. Okay guys, you can wake up now! Roger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: GUSDOCVILL Subject: Randy Ward - IPMS Club Randy, Afraid I am with you!! I live around three Air Force and one Army base!! They call my ships, "cute"!!! Lord has blessed me in that I build armor and military planes as a break from my 1/700 ships -- trying to save my eyes!! As I read your comments, I found myself asking you why don't "we" do it over the Internet!? Grace and peace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, bless you and your beloved family forever. Gus Semper Fi ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: IPMS >> I stand corrected. I could not see the forest for the tees. I needed to pull my self away from the projuct in order to see clearly (please remember it has been a big part of my life for the last 3 yr. almost). I was use to going to shows that judged differently and I see that now. Taking third was good espescly when you think about the sub also getting horonable mention. The judging was different that is for sure and something that does seem to be more on skill and not what you like. So I stand here today to say I am sorry if I steped on anyones toes and to say thank you for allowing her in. As for the Hornet I am working on a different way to do the flight deck that will hide the seam line and screw holes. So again I stand before you to say I am sorry.It's not sour grapes but a lack of understanding of the rules of the show that were unknow to me. Again sorry and to the judges thank you for a job well done. And I plan to join IPMS. Looking forward to more shows. << Don, I am glad to see that you now understand what I was telling you at the show. The rules IPMS use put wood and R/C models at a huge disatvantage when the guidelines are applied equally. This is just another case to support my view that IPMS needs to include different classes for non-plastic and non-display models if we want to get these people into the society. As for the color, as we discussed, the ship was painted in Measure 11, overall Sea Blue (5-S). By the time she was readying for Midway, there is one photo of the outboard side of the island which suggests she has either severly faded or was repainted. When the ship was repainted following the damage she recieved in October, she was repainted in Ms 21, Overall Navy Blue (5-N). In both cases the flight deck was stained with Deck Blue Stain or painted with Deck Blue 20-B http://www.cv6.org/noumea/default.asp?uri=detail/nhc-img-nh80g66121&ref=May+1942 In this photo one can clearly see a difference in the colors above and below the hangar deck. The shaded area of the hangar wall is lighter than the hull below it, but darker than the sunlit areas. This suggests that the Ms11 was dropped at this time. Also look at the #3 Gallery; the entire side plating is in shadow but a difference in color can be seen. The island in this photo appears to be darker than the hangar walls and the rest of the hull above the hangar deck level. As for what you could do to hide the deck seam here are two suggestions: 1) either cut the deck so that the seam falls along an expansion joint/tiedown plate and use a tiedown plate to hide the seam or; 2) cut the deck so that the seam butts perfectly and it looks like a normal plank joint. To hide the screws you could countersink them at a place where the arrestor drums go and use a piece of dowel to both cover the screw and imitate the drum. Another item I am not sure you understood was that the some of gun barrels were bent on both of the models. These looked like the HR guns, so bending them back straight would help. It looked like this happened in transit, so just check them the next time you bring it somewhere. Now all you need is a deckload of aircraft to complete the model! James Corley ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Starting ship modeling club? >> I thought about starting my own club. But, I believe IPMS requires several (12? 15?) already-members to start a chapter - more than the number of ship modelers I know in the surrounding states. 'Haven't found any other related clubs within quite a drive. The local hobby shop doesn't know of any. Is there any other organization in this area I don't know about? It seems nuts to be in the middle of so much nautical history and there's no interest in model ships! << Randy, All that IPMS requires that you have five IPMS/USA members, and that all officers are also IPMS/USA members in good standing (paid-up) - however, they cannot be 5 people in a family membership, there has to be 5 IPMS numbers involved. You can check for chapters in your area by going to the IPMS/USA home page at: http://www.ipmsusa.org/ you can also find chapters in your area by going to: http://www.ipmsusa.org/Groups_Contests/locator_main.asp and clicking on the state's name you want to see - in NE these are out to the side, if you click on the map you'll get nothing except for Maine. A link to this page is also on the main page in the button bar on the left side of the page, third button down says "Chapter & RC Directory" IPMS/USA has chapters in every state except North Dakota (Freezin's the Reason?) and Montana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: Re: Typhoon Louise >> From: Harold Chvarak MOMM3/C Thank you very much for all you and all the other people and replyes to my inquery as to typhoons off Okinawa in 1945. The morning of April 5 all the transports and cargo ships got order to leave the area for two reasons. 1 typhoon is headed our way plus jap kamakazes were becoming much greater and our being ther would put us in great danger. we all were to head for Guam. and safety. the morning of April the tyhoon hit us hard we were in the storm until April April 7. our escort ships left us after one day they were taking 2 out of 3 swells under our ship one night rolled over 40 degrees the max. to stay afloat was 45 degrees very close to rolling over and sinking. we sailed out of the storm unharmed. thank god morning of April 9 we arrived at Guam. in all of my trying to find a name no such luck as yet. the local library now also is trying to help me. So thank you for all the help again. << ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR Subject: Re: Ship modelers in general and IPMS/USA >> I joined the first one for 6 months, brought some scratchbuilt boat models, and felt totally like an outsider. 90% of what was talked about was planes. There is an R/C boat club about an hour and a quarter south of me, but they haven't been that friendly or open in my attendance at two of their events. << With all due respect, what exactly do you want from a model club? An invitation, 21 gun salute, personal attention by the Pres. when you walk through the door? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or disrespectful. What you describe is the same thing that occurs to almost all ship modelers who join IPMS chapters. The chapters aren't anti-ship models, they are just populated by builders of the more popular model disciplines. The group I belong to in Okla. City has mostly A/C guys, followed up by armor modelers with some figure guys here and there with some auto modelers as well. At the bottom of the numbers list is (you guessed it) me and another guy who build ships. Out of about 40 or so members there are TWO ships only types. As disheartening as that may sound, that pretty accurately represents the proportional number of ship modelers in the US compared to the other modeling disciplines. It's been mentioned here before that ship models are at the bottom of the list in popularity among modelers in the US. You say you were treated like an outsider. What does that mean? Were you just ignored and treated like crap, or was there just a somewhat lack of interest in your model by the non-ship builders? As long your given the same time and common courtesy as the other modelers to discuss your project, I think that's about all you can expect. What I have done at our chapter meetings being the vast minority in my group, is work to bring some of the other guys from the dark side to ship modeling. I have brought some of the really cool multi-media models I have to the meetings unbuilt in the box and discussed them with the group. At the meeting yesterday I took my 1/350 Iron Shipwright Langley. That REALLY got some interest with the massive amount of photo etch in the kit. Over the years several of the hard core non-ship builders have been building ships! Not a lot, but some have been showing up lately. Upon entering the door they come to me first and want to know what I think of their FIRST ship effort. I always give them an encouraging response to possibly drive them to build another one. In short, we won't be making ships only builders out the "others" in the chapter anytime soon, but we can (as ship builders) offer encouragement to first timers and continue to expose the "non-believers" to ship modeling. If you want to start a ships only chapter on the East coast, that's a great place to do it. Contact Jack Kennedy (the Director of Local Chapters) on the IPMS/USA web site. He has all kinds of helpful information that will get you going in the right direct to starting a chapter. That's his job and he'll be happy to help any way he can. I'll be happy to offer what advise I can as well. Just contact me off board and we can discuss it. Sorry to ramble. Rusty White - #20181 IPMS/USA Pres. Candidate ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Cameron Lynch" Subject: Scharnhorst Mooring First, I am not a sailor and never have been. I live 1500 miles from the nearest ocean so I don't have any personal experience.... I'm working on my first ship, a 1/700 Scharnhorst, and am planning on portraying it at anchor in a Norwegian fjiord following Operation Juno in June 1940. There is a beautiful photo I have of her and her sister at anchor with a handful of seaplanes and a cruiser (whose name escapes me). Unfortunately I have no knowledge of standard mooring procedure of warships, and the photo doesn't show the relevant detail and need some help so that it looks historically accurate. The Scharnhorst has two bow and a stern anchor...I'm sure that at least one and possibly more would have been payed out. How would you portray this? Thanks in advance. Cameron ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SHIPMDLR Subject: Re: IPMS/USA member minimum >> I thought about starting my own club. But, I believe IPMS requires several (12? 15?) already-members to start a chapter - more than the number of ship modelers I know in the surrounding states. << IPMS/USA requires only 5 people with national membership to be a chapter. Rusty White - #20181 IPMS/USA Pres. Candidate ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Gmshoda Subject: Re: Dennis Disbrow's Walk to the Washington Navy Yard Museum My wife was nice enough to walk those very same long blocks with me so that I could see it. And she was not wearing sneakers. Next time we will take a taxi. But the walk was worth it. There was a quaint diner across from the entrance, I think. Didn't know the area was dangerous. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: starting a club There is a club that meets or did meet in New Haven at The Univ of New Haven. I don't know whether they are still active. Somehow I have never gotten around to joining, though I suppose I should. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: EBENCARL89 Subject: hull of the s.s. united states hi, with all the talk about the united states being sold, and refitted to service it made me wonder about the secret hull design. i think i saw a picture of it about 3 years ago or maybe i was wrong, but it had a very long fin from about the middle of the ship all the way to the propellors, two on either side. was i dreaming this or was that true?? i cant remember where i saw the picture at. thanks, Ed Wilde ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "David Hathaway" Subject: Re: Black lighthouses The black lighthouse in Cork is actually at Ballycotton, about 8 miles east of the mouth of Cork harbour. Took me a bit aback when I saw it this summer for the first time. David ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "KLW" Subject: Re: IMPS Ship Judging Problems This is mainly for Mike Maynard: Mike, as an IPMS member and judge in our Regional Show/Contest, let me assure you that there is NO requirement that a model be plastic. There has been discussion along those lines in the past, but nothing was ever decided as there are so many multi-media models these days. If indeed a model decision was made on the basis of whether or not a model was plastic versus other material, then this was way outside the limits of proper judging. There are definite parameters for judging. Unless it is an out of the box category, the material is immaterial. As a static and RC modeler myself, however, I do know the same prejudice you ran into in that an RC model ship in an IPMS show does not stand a chance. Sorry you experienced that. Kevin Wenker ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Tony Mattson" Subject: Re: Lighthouses Mac Gregory asks: >> I believe there are three Black Lighthouses worldwide. One, is at Queenscliff Victoria, one at Cork in Ireland, can someone please point me to the location of the third? << Mac, I have been able to find references aplenty to Black Lighthouse in Castlecliff, Victoria and references to Irelands Blackrock Lighthouse (variously described as Blackrock Sligo and Blackrock Mayo), the unfortunately named Blackhead Lighthouse in Antrim Ireland, a Black Rock Harbour Light in Bridgeport Connecticut, Black Bear Island light in Selkirk, Manitoba, and so on but no success I regret to advise on your third Black Lighthouse. Perhaps the accompanying link may be of general interest or a starting point for lighthouse researchers. http://www.lhdepot.com/database/list.cfm Kind regards Tony Mattson Editor- Mailship Scale Marine Modellers Inc. Auckland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Rod Dauteuil" Subject: Starting a ship model club Randy, Where are you? There are a lot of square miles that lie within 35 minutes of the Atlantic in New England, including my hometown of Methuen, Mass. Rod ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: GKingzett Subject: Re: IPMS vs RC judging To Donald Haugh and the SMML list. I would like to offer my congratulations to all concerned about this thread. To all the list members who offered measured and knowledgeable input, and to Mr. Haugh who took the opportunity to learn something of value and did so, Well Done. In the past year, several potential controversies have been avoided in this same way, by all correspondents learning from the discussion, instead of noisily defending their positions. It makes me proud to be associated with you. Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "ke6adm" Subject: Re: USS Macon The missile used on the Macon CA-132 was a Regulus missile. Tom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Phil Stewart Subject: USS Macon, missile on fantail I'll place my bet that this is a Regulus I missile. Martin Marietta? Phil Stewart ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Phil Stewart Subject: USS Macon, missile on fantail Uh-oh-- A SAM? Not a Regulus then. Hmm... Thinking with my fingers again, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Raven0222 Subject: Saratoga plans Help! Need a set of Saratoga plans when she carried the eight inch guns. Thanks guys. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Raven0222 Subject: Wisteria or?? I am to build a model of the Wisteria. Army hospital ship 1944-1945. Any and I do mean any input from the readers as to photos, plans, or what she was would really help. Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Loren Pike" Subject: IPMS "Boat Club" Randy, Unless the rules have changed recently, you need five (5) IPMS/USA members to form a club. This may be a start for your efforts to form a "boat IPMS" club. Too bad your other IPMS clubs shun your boat-building. I've belonged to a number of clubs and "most" have an emphasis, but all seemed to be open to me as a person and the kits I build (and collect). I build and collect 1:700th ships, 1:200th airliners, 1:72 armor and a/c and some "misc." kits (cars, trucks, etc.) as well. Good luck in your search for members and starting a new club. Loren Pike IPMS 10921 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Chris Evenden" Subject: 1/72 US Gato/Balao Hull in Australia? Hi All, I was wondering if any fellow SMMLies knows of any place that sells a 1/72 Gato or Balao class submarine hull in Australia? This will be for a static model rather than radio control. Thanks, Chris Evenden Canberra ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Chris Christenson" Subject: Re: Hawk OHKA I have one in a Testors box I purchased 10 or so years ago. It's obviously not an original issue Hawk in original box but if you're just looking for one you might find one somewhere. IIRC it's in 1:48 scale ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Dave Shirlaw Subject: Re: USS Macon The missile carried at the stern of USS Macon and others was the Regulus which was abandoned with the introduction of Polaris. Dave Shirlaw Editor, SeaWaves Magazine www.seawaves.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume