Subject: SMML VOL 2248 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:17:32 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Ensigns and Jacks (Again) 2: Re: green Indiana 3: Re: green Indiana 4: HMS Ark Royal {WW 2] 5: New Schnellboot Books 6: Navy Fact File: Attack Submarines 7: Kriegsmarine minesweeper gizmo 8: Soviet Tango Class Submarine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Currie Subject: Re: Ensigns and Jacks (Again) Royal Standard does not replace the commissioning pendant, if you are onboard a ship that has an officer of Flag rank, say a Rear Admiral, the Royal Standard would replace his flag as the Royal Standard is Senior. Yours Aye, J W Currie Chief Petty Officer Royal Navy (28 years and still going strong) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: green Indiana >> If you have a copy or can get one take a look at Walkowiak's book United States Navy Camouflage of the WW2 Era. Page 16 shows the Indiana at Newport News on August 15, 1942 that could be painted in navy green, ocean green, and haze green. Deck green would be on horizontal surfaces. The picture shows vertical surfaces in a wavy pattern smilar to some British schemes. The author states "COULD BE" but states there were a number of eye witness accounts of a South Dakota class battleship painted in a green pattern. Believe It Or Not! << IT IS ALL B. S.!!!! Tom Walkowiak has fallen prey, as many of us have, to rumors and innuendo's. The Indiana was painted like all the other USN capital ships at that time, in the "Purple-Blues". I have only ever met two WWII sailors who actually remembered a large amount of things, including the paint colors of their ships, out of all the former sailors I have talked to. Most just say their ship was "Battleship Gray", even when I am showing them a photo of their ship in a Ms. 33 camo pattern. So, when I hear a former sailor say this or that, I am unfortunately skeptical. Also, most unfortunately, I have yet to find a color photo of this camo pattern on the Indiana, but there is no real evidence that the ship was painted in any other manner than the standard camo colors of the time. On a side note, this whole "Green Camouflage" thing with the Indiana is very much the same as that on the German Panzerschiff Admiral Graf Spee. Some artist decided that the Graf Spee looked better with a green camo pattern atop the gray and so the thing was perpetuated for many years, until the 1980's, when original source material showed that the Graf Spee was painted in grays. This is one of many cases of where people write history as they wish to see it. This is a huge mistake to pass on to our followers. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: MRCSCARDON Subject: Re: green Indiana In regards to a green Indiana. The Indiana could not have been green in the Pacific, because she was repainted in Ms 21 before departing for duty there. There are photos of her painted that way. If someone out there has a copy of the Wings episode on US seaplanes, this could be put to rest. I believe there is color footage of a Kingfisher taxiing to the stern of the Indiana. The ship is in blues. The US flag is a nice red, white, and blue with no color shift. I have call the Discovery Channel to buy this episode but they don't have a clue. Maybe someone else could have more success. When I saw it I decided to buy a VCR. Floating Drydock camouflage book also creates problems because Chapter 5 (March 1943) is when the six green-grey colors were introduced. This is well after the photos were taken at Norfolk. It is also after the Indiana reported to the Pacific. The Green Battleship is a myth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Iain Wyllie Subject: HMS Ark Royal {WW 2] Does anyone know the shade of grey used on the Ark in late '40 - '41? My guess is AP 507B, but I'm an aircraft modeller! Also, what colour were flight decks painted? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Daniel Taylor" Subject: New Schnellboot Books Morning All, Typical isn't it! You wait all this time for something on the Schnellboot and then two come along at once. I thought that, seeing as where E-Boats are concerned I am something of an early adopter, those of you dithering over reaching for the SMML Goldcard might appreciate a first impression. I should mention: I have no axe to grind, just a long appreciation of Coastal Forces craft. The books were bought for cash - no freebies sought. First, the one we have been waiting for. 'Schnellboot in Action' by T. Garth Connelly and David L. Krakow Squadron/Signal Publications from the Warships series, no. 18 ISBN 0-89747-457-0 Purchased for £8.75 Sterling 57 pages (landscape format) This is an extremely thorough, technical study of the various Schnellboot types employed by the Kriegsmarine during WWII with some interesting background on their forebears. As with all Squadron publications, the text is based around a lavish spread of well printed photographs along with some very neat technical drawings. There is the usual double-page colour centre-spread. The quality of this book is excellent. The text is authoritative and readable (not always an easy combination) and limits itself to a description of the vessels, armament engines, equipment and camouflage, without getting drawn into a narrative about operations and personalities. One thing that I found intriguing - and would like to know the background on - was the designation S-38B as a type descriptor. It is used to identify the modification of S-38 hulls to the standard of the S-100 vessels with Kalotte Bridge. I have not seen this before and would like to know if this was an official designation or a construct for clarity in the book. The illustrations are very useful and point out the chief differences between the types although, if I had a complaint, it would be that most are on the small side and only a couple include a plan view. Space is tight on this type of publication and I guess I can't have everything. That said, the re are some good large scale side-on technical drawings of the bridge development. The photographic information is very good, with plenty of new or little-used shots. So far as I can see, the captioning is exemplary, with informative observations and accurate descriptions. Just to show I have an idea what I'm talking about though, the photograph top right on page 27 does not, as captioned, show five S-100 class Schnellboote, but rather five S-38 types. This is a nit-pick though as the rest are very good. From the model maker's point of view this book is exceptionally good value. It would probably give a confident converter enough information to do some significant work on the Revell 1/72 kit. Although the Acknowledgements demonstrate the depth of the research I would have loved to see a bibliography but again space and Squadron's format probably prevented that. In conclusion, then, a very sound book. Second then was: 'S-Boote German E-Boats in Action 1939-1945' by Jean-Philippe Dallies-Labourdette Histoire & Collections ISBN: 2-913903-49-5 I paid £24 Sterling 175 pages (portrait format) This book is a translation of a French publication that had eluded me in its original form. It is illustrated with abundant large and crisp photographs and the text not only describes the types but also goes into detail on operational matters, outlines of tactics, explanations of weapons and equipment, plus information on equivalent vessels from the British, Italian and US Navies. However, this is not an authoritative read in the way that Connelly and Krakow's is. Nor is it nearly so well proof checked, if at all: On the title page one of the chapter headings is still in French; I have found the same caption used verbatim twice for separate pictures (although neither is inaccurate); words run into one another. Also, some of the translations are inappropriate - particularly irritating is the use of 'grenade' for depth 'charge' - but there are others. It is a bit of a shame since some of the text presents itself quite usefully and could be stimulating background if the glaring errors did not make you doubt it's accuracy. For example, there is a section describing the passage of the 2nd Schnellboot Flotilla to the Med, where the flotilla is described as operational in December 1941. They then go on to take part in actions in June 1941! The books redemption, though, is in the photographs. They are very well printed, include numerous otherwise unseen shots and include a number of details that will be very useful in building or converting the Revell kit. The captioning looks, on the face of it, to have potential as it lists a lot of specific vessel numbers along with the name of the Captain. However, one is still left in doubt because of the obvious errors elsewhere. Another quality are the plans which are large and mainly Lurssen originals. Maddeningly they are all across the spine, but you can't have everything. Which brings me to the painted illustrations. These really are not very good. As if to demonstrate their inaccuracy, they are printed above the ship plans. All of the vessels are depicted in a very dirty state which is just not borne out by the photographs and, as wooden boats, they seem to rust a lot. The best that could be said is that they are a little better than the Revell box-top art of the vessel. On the other hand, the 'Panther' flotilla Insignia illustration is actually worse than that depicted in the Revell transfer sheet. Quite a feat. In conclusion then, this book is very useful for its photographs. I'd like to take a lot of the text seriously but cannot imagine a serious historian allowing this sort of thing to be done to, what must have been, years of hard work. So, there you have it. Two books: one a must have: the other needing a lot of background research to check whether it's potential is realisable. It seems that there are still things which I'd like to have a bit more information on, but which I can begin to accept just is not out there - that bit in front of the bridge of the S-30 class is still lacking details. But a number of things are a lot clearer now. My main trouble is that I though I had achieved a 'definitive' S-100 and now I have to have another go. A couple of things I'd like to throw up to Garth and Dave if they are listening - The 8th Flotilla had a logo depicting a leaping dear in a circle. A couple of shots seem to imply that there was a colour within the circle. Any ideas on this? And, can you suggest a source for more information on the 40m Bofors mounting. Photos are a little grainy although you seem to have garnered enough information for the plan in the book. Where should I look? Hope this proves useful Dan Taylor West Malling, UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Kutina Subject: Navy Fact File: Attack Submarines http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-ssn.html Regards, John Kutina ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Clifford Franklin Subject: Kriegsmarine minesweeper gizmo >> Looking at photographs of Kriegsmarine minesweepers and escorts (Flottenbegleiter) I noticed that all of them seem to have a weird gizmo in the mast. The gizmo is a square frame of maybe 4 to 6 feet width. Sometime the square "sits" on one of its sides and sometimes it "stands" on one of the corners - like diamond, the playing card symbol. From the square, a short (1 to 2 feet) slat protrudes at 45 degrees, either upwards or downwards. Thus, the gizmo slightly resembles a very angular letter "Q", sometimes mirrored or upside down. The gizmo is fixed to the mast above the crow's nest and is visible especially from fore and aft. I also found two instances where a symbol looking just like the gizmo was painted on the bridge wing of a type M35 minesweepers. What is the name of the gizmo? What was it good for? (HF/DF antenna, semaphore, fighting light, tactical symbol????) Is it specific for vessels with minesweeping duties? Whoever knows the answers please respond. Thanks << Bernhard I, too, have seen many examples of the gizmo you mention, and would like to know exactly what it is. I have seen photos of various vessels wearing it, including all types of Kriegsmarine minesweepers and M boats (converted trawlers), as well as a couple of the F-boote. Very often the symbol is painted on the bridge wings as well. My guess is that it was some kind of tactical or flotilla marking. I asked this question on the German Navy Forum, but unfortunately got no answer. Cheers Cliff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "dengar" Subject: Soviet Tango Class Submarine http://www.schiffsbilderarchiv.de/434.htm This site should interest Soviet Submarine modelers. An excellent selection of large clear photographs with all the detail you need. Does anyone know where similar images of the Foxtrot Class could be found? Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume