Subject: SMML VOL 2250 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 04:21:36 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Flags 2: Re: New Schnellboote books 3: Re: Ark Royal colours 4: Re: Allied Coastal Forces Vol 111 5: Re: New Schnellboot Books 6: Flags 7: Re: LNG/LPG Carriers 8: Ark Royal 9: Re: Natural Gas Carriers 10: Re: Ensigns and Jacks (Again) 11: Re: New Schnellboote books 12: Re: Allied Coastal Forces Volume 3 - Update 13: Re: New Schnellboote books 14: Daniel's question 15: Ark Royal 16: Etna[sp?] decking on British ships 17: Ensigns and Jacks 18: Re: Kriegsmarine minesweeper gizmo 19: Re: Green Indiana (a bit long winded) 20: Color Photography, Green Indiana -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Conversion set for 1/350 Hornet to Enterprise? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Dean, Tom" Subject: Flags Mike: The procedures so ably outlined by CPO Currie are the same that are followed in the Canadian Navy. The White Ensign was replaced in 1965 by the Canadian National Flag in the ensign position. Actually for a brief period of time it was used at the ensign and jack positions. This procedure ceased when a new naval jack was designed but the date escapes me now.The only difference I could see was that "colours" was always at 0800 in the RCN. In a foreign port we would follow the regulations of the local Naval Establishment, and I do recall 0900 "colours" in UK ports a few times. Morning colours in the RCN was also used for morning divisions, with all off duty members of the ships company lined up and daily orders or announcements would be made after the ceremony. Divisions were still held every morning at sea, but naturally "colours" were not necessary. I recall that when possible the colours were illimunated at night both in harbour and at sea. As previously state ceremonial occassions at sea would encorporate both ensigns and a jack. Tom Dean ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: URUDOFSKY Subject: Re: New Schnellboote books I recently translated a 1940/41 German book entitled "Kriegsmarine am Feind" "The Kriegsmarine engaging the Enemy". The book is an interesting historical account of how the Kriegsmarine viewed itself at that time. This book contains more than 400 photos of which more than 40 are of Schnellboote in action, as well as crew photos and text. I think that modelers may find this an interesting overall Kriegsmarine resource. The English version of this book is sold a PDF file via the www.Kbismarck.com website as an electronic downloadable book. Ulrich Rudofsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: WRPRESSINC Subject: Re: Ark Royal colours Your "most reliable source" must have been out drinking. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: WRPRESSINC Subject: Re: Allied Coastal Forces Vol 111 Speaking as the publisher of W R PRESS, I can say that the AUTHORS are at the top of the list. Without them there would be NO books. And let me say that royalty cheques will be posted in about ten days, so do not bother me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: New Schnellboot Books >> The recently issued books by Squadron and Classic Warship on USN PT's, German S-Boats and RN MTB's has made me wondered about the two other Axis countries MTB's: Japan and Italy. They apparently had them but I've never heard of them being operationally. Were they late war production or poorly used? MM Craig, Great question. Here is part of the answer to that question. Very few photos have survived the war from the Italian side and almost nothing survived from the Japanese side. These are of course comparisons to number of photos in the collections of the German, British and Americans. I am finding that the Italians and the Japanese were not as motivated to photograph as the Germans or the Americans. The British did OK, but the Germans and the Americans had more money to throw at this. Also, another reason is what I call the "Test of Time". How were these photos stored? How many idiots disposed (put them in the trash) of collections? You can see there are many small reasons for this, and they all add up. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Dean, Tom" Subject: Flags Hi Gang: Just reread my earlier message. Didn't mean to say that the colours were illuminated at night in harbour. That would be difficult seeing that they would have been in the signal office, probably with the duty sigs head on them sound asleep! Tom Dean ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Tony Mattson" Subject: Re: LNG/LPG Carriers George Levine wriotes about Natural Gas Carriers George, some time ago came across the following website. I wonder if it may be of interest to you: http://www.witherbys.com/acatalog/WITHERBYS_CATALOGUE_Tankers_Gas_LPG___LNG_280.html Witherbys is a long-established and reputable specialist supplier of technical publications to the shipping and insurance industries and their collection of publications on LNG/LPG appears to be very extensive, from development of the specialised carrier technology, thru such diverse subjects as safety and handling, maintenance, transportation standards, to such offerings as records of all LNG/LPG voyages from 1959 onwards. Some cool stuff to be had for a price. Kind regards Tony Mattson Editor- Mailship Scale Marine Modellers Inc. Auckland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Chris and Kayo Amano-Langtree" Subject: Ark Royal Ark Royal didn't sail in 507C - her colours were 507B when she served with Force H but late in 1940 she appears to be camouflaged. This was a 507B lower hull to the knuckle with the rest above in 507C. I say appears because the 507C is heavily worn in photos suggesting the possibility she was interrupted during a repaint. When she was sunk she was in 507B. Decks were 507A. Christopher Amano-Langtree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Ouellette, Lawrence M" Subject: Re: Natural Gas Carriers George Levine wrote: >> I have not seen anyone else comment on this so here is the little bit that I know: There were two types of tanks built in the US. One used spherical tanks containing about 25,000 cubic meters of LNG (5 tanks per ship). << These are probably the 'Zodiac' named ships built by General Dynamics at Fore River Shipyard. There is a little information on them available at: http://www.hazegray.org/shipbuilding/quincy/ There were supposed to be 12 built (thus the zodiac names) but only 10 were completed. They are now owned by 3 different companies, but 8 of 10 retain their original names. A small concept model presented to then Quincy Mayor Hannon is on display in the USS Salem Ship Model Exhibit. >> The tanks sat on complicated pedestals and were not part of the hull. They were not designed so that they would be able to float free and I doubt if they would float when full of cargo (I do not remember the specific gravity of LNG). << The Quincy-built LNG's had their spherical tanks manufactured in South Carolina, loaded onto a special-built barge, and towed to Quincy. The 750 ton tanks were not the heaviest loads lifted by the 1200 ton Goliath Crane, but were probably the largest or bulkiest lifts. Goliath did lift 1120 ton complete superstructures in the early 1980's. There is an aerial photo of the shipyard at: http://www.hazegray.org/shipbuilding/quincy/images/yard06.jpg ... which shows just how big these tankers are. They are not super-tankers, but they were designed to the maximum size that could fit in Fore River's dry docks and still clear the Fore River Bridge. You can see the sphere barge just to the right of the LNG in the adjacent dry-dock. (btw: The Goliath crane is about 30 stories high.) Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum Quincy, Massachusetts, USA http://www.uss-salem.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Currie" Subject: Re: Ensigns and Jacks (Again) >> part of my original question that remains unanswered viz: is the same etiquette used in the USN and other navies? << Sorry Michael for not reading and fully answering your Questions, my experience with NATO is that near enough all that i have wrote stands for NATO Navies, when you are in a group such as STANAFORLANT Ceremonial Etiquette is very strictly followed. HTH Yours Aye John W Currie Chief Petty Officer Royal Navy (28 Years Done and still going Strong) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: ConnellyTG Subject: Re: New Schnellboote books >> countries MTB's: Japan and Italy. They apparently had them but I've never heard of them being operationally. Were they late war production or poorly used? << Craig, I hope to do a book on the Italian M.A.S boats. T. Garth Connelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: ALROSS2 Subject: Re: Allied Coastal Forces Volume 3 - Update >> What will Volume 3 contain? From Me - Designs from J I Thornycroft & Co., British Power Boat Co Ltd, J S White & Co Ltd, The Fairmile "F", and Messrs Camper & Nicholsons Ltd, along with all the outstanding weapons. I will let Al make his own report! << Higgins (including the HELLCAT), Huckins, Canadian Power Boat, MK17 .50 mount, Thunderbolt mount, MK19 Higgins torpedo tube. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: ConnellyTG Subject: Re: New Schnellboote books Daniel, Thank you for your kind words about the Squadron S-Boat book. T. Garth Connelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: ConnellyTG Subject: Daniel's question Daniel, The S-38b was an official Type Designator. Those boat came from the factory WITH the armored bridge already mounted and not as a field modification. As for the picture on Page 27, yes - you're right. We both apologise for that. We missed that insertion of the text by Squadron's editorial staff and failed to correct it. Thank you for bringing to our attention. The original caption DID NOT say that. As for the bibliography, ... it is extensive sir. T. Garth Connelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Chris and Kayo Amano-Langtree" Subject: Ark Royal A correction to my previous post. Ark Royal was in a worn version of her camouflage when she was sunk. Christopher Amano-Langtree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Lawrence E.A. Lee" Subject: Etna[sp?] decking on British ships Thought I'd solicit the collective wisdom of this group regarding a particular form of decking used on at least two classes of British warships in World War 1. These would be the Repulse and Renown as well as the hybrid cruisers Furious, Courageous and Glorious. I'd noticed mention of it in Burt's British Battleships of World War One but had seen no other references to it. 1/ Did any other ships use this form of decking? 2/ Was the decking on the Repulse and Renown switched to more traditional wooden planks? If so when? 3/ What was the colour? I've guessed black but have no proof of this. Many thanks, Lawrence ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Bruce Ross" Subject: Ensigns and Jacks >> My thanks to all who answered my query, The amount of info available on this site never ceases to amaze me. There is still part of my original question that remains unanswered viz: is the same etiquette used in the USN and other navies? << Michael, I didn't catch your original question but I think I understand what you're asking from the previous answers I've read. On a USN ship the jack is flown from a jackstaff at the bow and the Ensign is flown from a staff at the stern when the ship is either moored to the pier, a bouy, another ship that is secured somehow, or is anchored. As soon as the attachment to a stationary object is broken (ie: the last mooring line is cast off, the jack comes down and is stored away by the boatswain and the ensign goes up on the mainmast. The movement is typically signaled by a whistle blown over the 1MC by the quartermaster of the watch and the verbal command to "Underway or Moored, Shift Colors" is passed. As far as the commissioning pennant, I can't remember the ruling, but I know that the DDG that I served on had a separate little staff on the foremast that the pennant flew from and I think that was 24/7. That answer the question? Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Harold Stockton" Subject: Re: Kriegsmarine minesweeper gizmo Ernst-Bernhard Kayser wrote about "the gizmo is a square frame of maybe 4 to 6 feet width." One wonders if you are referring to the Funkmessortungs Gerat (radio location device) FuMO 30, which was itself a modification of the earlier FuMO 29; known as the GEMA set after its manufacturer (Gesellschaft fur Elektro-akustische und Mechanische Apparate). The GEMA set was a reduced size version of the DT-Gerat or Seetaft which operated at a wavelength of 80cm with a PRF of 500. The antenna used in the initial experimental installation was a two by three meter mattress supporting between eight and twelve dipoles. The GEMA set was a simple surface search radar with a range of approximately 7.5 kilometers against surface targets and 15 kilometers against aircraft at an altitude of 500 meters. This set could give an accuracy of two to three degrees. As the Germans did not have a set that could detect the British H2S radar, they improved the GEMA into the FuMO 30 where it could detect He-111s and Ju-88s at a flying height of 350 meters at twelve kilometers, or at seven kilometers if the flying height was 100 meters. But, low level aircraft were not reliably observed. To improve the effectiveness of the GEMA installation, the BdU adopted the Luftwaffe's FuG 200 Hohentweil (Owl) night fighter radar as the Hohentweil-U, designated FuMO 61, and operated at a wavelength of 54 cm with a PRF of 50, which gave about a 30% better resolution than the standard GEMA. Range against low-flying aircraft was between fifteen and twenty kilometers with a bearing accuracy of one to two degrees. The antenna used for the FuMO 61 was nearly identical to the FuMO 30, with a one to 1.5 meter mattress, but differed in having four rows each with six diploes on the face of the antenna. A smaller device of about one-half to one meter width was the so-called "Biskaykreuz" or FuMB 1 (Funkmessbeobachter) Metox R.600 radar detector. This set was named after Paris based firm that developed the system. This set was an audible relay pulse device that was hooked up to the vessels loud-speaker system, and would sound off whenever it detected the British ASV Mk 1 signal that itself operated on the 1.4 meter bandwidth. This set was further modified with the adoption of a cathode ray tube oscilloscope (B-Rohr) which showed both the amplitude and PRF of the intercepted signal. The Metox and its derivatives virtually neutralized the effectiveness of the ASV Mk 1 sets. In the endless measure and countermeasure war of electronic warfare during WW-II, the German BdU developed FuMB 9 Zypern, or Wnaz G1 (short for Wellenanzeiger - wave indicator) or Hagenuk after its manufacturer, to counter the British ASV Mk III, H2S. Follow-on devices such as the FuMB 10 Borkum and the FuMB 7 Naxos (Timor). Further devices were developed to counter holes that were discovered in the coverage of the wavelength bands that the H2S could cover, and the American AN/APS-4 radar, but that is another story. Harold Stockton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: wem Subject: Re: Green Indiana (a bit long winded) >> As long as we are discussing awkward/erroneous color schemes we should keep one thing in mind, the color film printing process. << Except that, in the case of INDIANA, we ARE talking about interpretation of B/W prints.... I've posted at length previously about the vagaries of period B/W emulsions. Suffice it to say: INDIANA was never in greens! Cheers, John Snyder The Paint (and photography) Guy White Ensign Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: james.kloek Subject: Color Photography, Green Indiana The recent post about color photography and the use of filters when making prints is basically accurate. The key in interpreting color prints is to look for an object of which you are sure of the color. Usually the flag works well. Check its color. If it looks to be the appropriate red, white, and blue, then the color balance of the print is probably pretty good, and you are looking at a reasonable rendition of the color captured on the negative. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Conversion set for 1/350 Hornet to Enterprise? From: David Sepos >> Do I recall hearing the rumor of a conversion kit to modify the 1/350 Trumpeter Hornet to the Enterprise? << Factual, and it has been available since February. You can contact me via email, phone or fax at the locations below. (sorry for the delay, been gone all week!) http://nautilusmodels.com/enterprise.htm James Corley AAA Hobby Supply www.aaahobby.com aaahobby@bellsouth.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume