Subject: SMML VOL 2257 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 03:14:58 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Color scheme and helo for USS NEW JERSEY/ Yamato 1/200 2: Re: Ark Royal 3: Re: green Indiana 4: Re: green battleships 5: Ark Royal 6: Recent Trip to Norfolk, VA 7: Predator & Ship modelling in decline 8: Re: WW1 RN colours 9: Camouflage Vol 4 10: Re: w.h.shuey and other smmlie's ark's paint etc 11: Re: Ark Royal 12: Re: USN WW2 vehicle colours 13: Paying off Pennant 14: Re: Navis Model 15: Ark Royal and Memories -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WTB: Aurora Enterprise ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Color scheme and helo for USS NEW JERSEY/ Yamato 1/200 >> Hazy Grey is _not_ the purple-blue tinted grey of WW2, but more of a light ghost grey. << First of all, it's Haze Gray (Sorry Joe--couldn't resist). It's darker than Light Ghost Gray, and lighter than Dark Ghost Gray. It's quite different from both of them. If you want accuracy, you want Colourcoats M03 Modern Haze Gray, accurately matched to the original. >> BTW, I Built the 1/350 but have held back on the 1/200, mainly because of the lack of detail. Do you know if anyone is making tooled parts, such as << You can get turned steel barrels with separate brass tompions from Peter Dean (petedean2@netscapeonline.co.uk). They'll set you back about £150/set (around $243.00 at the current exchange rate). Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: J W Currie Subject: Re: Ark Royal I have seen the photo's of the Ark Royal, all from various books that are available, to me it looks like a definite camouflage pattern, my experience over my 28 years served so far is that when a ship is painted its is from top to bottom, not bottom to top (paint runs down due to gravity) and front to back or back to front (whichever end they start at first) A carrier painted 507C above 507A with 507A island does not sound too unlikely, infact it sounds very plausible for that time period, also today i drew a carrier in this scheme and put it on the wall and stood back, my guess is that they were trying to make the ship appear further away than what it actually was (if this scheme existed that is) Thats my two pence worth. Yours Aye J W Currie CPO(AWW) Royal Navy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: green Indiana >> Of course, even after all this, you can build your Indiana with a "green Ms 21/22" and call it a proposed alternative camo scheme, putting one of those photos next to the model. It'll drive the paint Nazis nuts! It's _your_ model, build it however _you_ want. Joe Poutre Who wants to build an OHP in modern dazzle... << This is exactly how these stupid rumors get started. No offense intended Joe! The time period that the Indiana was supposed to have been in the "Greens" (which she was not!) was soon after she was completed, in May 1942 and painted in a Ms. 12 Modified pattern, NOT Ms. 21 or 22, which was painted later, about 1943 onwards. This is why it is sooooooooooo important to get the information correct, because the next thing I will hear is................. ..............."But someone on the SMML said it was Ms. 22".................. ..................and so on! Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: green battleships >> no this is not about the debate of the US battleship (bet Shane thought not another post on that still!,lol), but the box art on i recall on some of the 1/700 IJN battleships... i cant recall exactly but i remember some show the BB's in green ...... is this true...as i said i cant recall the box arts ..Haruna i think was one .. << AJ, Actually, the Haruna was painted in greens!, but only after she was immobilized in Japan with no fuel. I am working to make still copies from some 16mm motion picture films, which are the only color images left of the IJN. These were taken in October 1945 and again in February 1946 and show many of the IJN warships. The clarity is really good. Haruna was in a pattern of two greens and an olive drab, with white accent stripes. Some of this motion picture footage was actually shot from on board the battleship and is quite amazing. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Iain Wyllie Subject: Ark Royal There is nothing particularly new about photos of the Ark in this odd state of painting _ I am looking at an HMSO publication on the Ark Royal published in 1942 which has a photo showing this paintwork as she is steaming among merchant ships of a [Eastbound] Malta convoy with four Fulmars on the aft end of the flight deck. For what it is worth, the Ark carried Fulmars of 800 Sqdn. from 8th to 13th June '41 and Fulmars of 807 Sqdn. from 5th April '41 to the time of her sinking on 13th Nov. '41. Since it is unlikely that the ship ran around in this half painted fashion from June to her demise it is therefore likely that the Fulmars were from 807 Sqdn. However unless an accurately dated photo is available it is impossible to say when these photos of the ship in the odd paint and with Fulmars were taken - unless someone can read the serial numbers off a photo of Ark Royal showing the Fulmars ranged on deck. It would be nice to think that these photos were of the last convoy escort before she headed back for Gibraltar for the last time but that, of course, would be pure speculation. At any rate, apart from the probably short aberration of her final paintwork, for most of her career with Force H she was in a monotone scheme of a mid grey. Can some "expert" out there finally answer my original question which was - "was this shade AP 507B and what colour was the flight deck?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Michael McMurtrey Subject: Recent Trip to Norfolk, VA Having just returned from Norfolk, where my employer hosted our biennial convention, I thought I'd report on some of the attractions for the naval enthusiast and ship modeler which I was able to sample first-hand when i was able to escape from several hundred college band geeks! First impressions: Norfolk is one of the most beautiful cities I have ever visited. Our convention was headquartered at the Waterside Marriott, and I highly recommend it. It is smack in the middle of downtown, and only one block from the waterfront on the Elizabeth River, just across the river from Portsmouth. From the marina just outside the Waterside Marketplace, a two-story mall containing shop, bars, and restaurants) there is an excellent view of dry docks and other facilities. A Trenton-class assault transport was in drydock, and two fleet oilers (including Leroy Grumman) were moored nearby. Attractions: the Waterside Marriott is only three blocks from Nauticus (the National Maritime Center), which houses the Hampton Roads Naval Museum and is home to USS Wisconsin (BB 64). Admission to Nauticus is $9.95, but the museum and Wisconsin are free. The Museum contains an excellent collection of models and other exhibits interpreting the naval history of the area from colonial days to the present. The Wisconsin, I was surprised to learn, is still part of the Navy's inactive reserve fleet (!) so it is impossible to go inside, but three decks are open to the public as a self-guided tour. You can also rent an audio-cassette player with accompanying tape, and knowledgeable volunteers (all ex US Navy, as best I could tell) and US Navy personnel were posted at various spots to answer questions. While I was there, it was announced that the Navy had decided to sell the ship to the City of Norfolk, where she will become a permanent exhibit, with interior spaces open for tours. She is impressive! Norfolk Rapid Transit operates ferries from the Waterside marina to Portsmouth, where there is the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard Museum, dedicated to the history of the Norfolk Navy Yard/Naval Shipyard, which dates from 1767. The Norfolk Navy Yard has turned out such famous ships as the CSS Virginia (ex-Merrimac) and USS Langley, the Navy's first aircraft carrier. The lightship Portsmouth is permanently berthed ashore nearby as a museum. Not far from the Marriott is the Macarthur Memorial, the resting place of Gen. Douglas Macarthur and a museum devoted to his life and career. A very good museum, although it tends to gloss over some of the controversies surrounding the General (and there is probably not a building anywhere big enough to house his ego!) Tours: There are several companies offering boat tours of the area. Our group took a 2 1/2 hour sunset cruise on the Carrie B. a 300-passenger replica of a Mississippi riverboat. The tour took us past the Norfolk International (shipping) Terminal and Norfolk Southern's bulk coaling facility and past the site of the Monitor-Merrimac battle to the Norfolk Naval Base, where we were able to get good looks at the Atlantic Fleet's Burke- and Spruance-class destroyers (several of each), 4 Los Angeles-class attack subs, assorted transports and amphibious attack ships, and 3 carriers: Harry Truman, Theodore Roosevelt, and best of all, Enterprise! What a sight! There is also a noon cruise on the Carrie B over to Portsmouth and to the Shipyard, but I did not find out about that until it was too late, so I missed it. Unfortunately, I did not have a chance to get out to any of the hobby shops, so can't comment on those. In summary, if you are interested at all in the US Navy's history and ships, Norfolk is definitely a place to visit. Not only is there a lot to see, but the residents are some of the friendliest you will ever hope to meet. And there are other attractions nearby, too, like colonial Williamsburg, Jamestown, and Yorktown, and tours to NAS Oceana. Michael McMurtrey ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: andrew jones Subject: Predator & Ship modelling in decline Predator: I think the Predator did not come into official status till the mid 90's..i recall seeing a photo of the Mo in action in GW1 with sailors setting up a UAV, similar to that of a toy aircraft (say about the size of a man or to be non-sexist a woman, lol) .. i also recall that 1 group of Iraqis surrended cuz they saw the drone & knew that the drone was from a BB & thought better to surrender to a drone than feel the power of the big shells (who knows maybe propoganda) .. The predator is one big "bird" & i dont think the cost of one of those they would allow to crash into a barrier on return. Ship modelling in decline..oh well hopefully SMML will keep sailing on!! regards Andrew Jones ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: M Brown Subject: Re: WW1 RN colours In Canberra, they have actual restored artefacts from both Emden & Sydney. I got into the Australian War Memorial’s Annex where the restoration work is carried out a little while ago and had a long chat with the guy who recently restored the Emden & Sydney exhibits of WW1. He took me all the way through the restoration process of the articles now in the ANZAC Hall ie the gun & stern section of Sydney & the gun & bow shield of Emden. Sydney’s artefacts had 28 layers of paint on them. She had two “real” shades of grey. They identified these in four ways: 1 Got chips from obvious places and hidden places like inside scuttle rims where they figured previous restorers wouldn’t have painted. 2 Looked at the layers under the microscope on the basis that the older layers would be more “cracked’ than newer layers. 3 Looked at the number of layers of similar colours. Logic being that a colour appearing only once on the top layers would be restoration whereas those appearing in the middle several times would be real paint. 4 Looked for black flecks on the assumption that these would be over painted coal dust and indicate that she was in service when this colour was applied. The good news is that the Sydney artefacts are “real” RN grey, the bad news is that it is not the colour she fought the Emden in. The decision on the grey to use was based on the Curators feel that as the Emden was light grey, Sydney must have been a light grey. This ignores the photos taken at the time of her on the way to & from the engagement which show her to be in a darker grey than circa 1915 photos. The colour they used is near as dammit the same as WEM’s AP507C paint. The fascinating thing is that 507C might have been introduced as an official named colour in 1920 but Sydney was wearing it or a very similar colour from 1915. As they weren’t going to use it, they didn’t match the other grey. It is not as dark as AP507A but is actually slightly lighter than AP507B (which didn’t as far as I know exist then). The “matching” on my part was by my, and the restorer’s, mark one eyeball under fluoro tubes comparing to WEM’s various greys. One point of interest for anyone with a Methuen book. The comment the restorers made for colour matching to the “507C” was that it was much like “Methuen 26 1B Pale Grey” Anyone know what this colour is or how the Methuen colours fit into the scheme of paint definitions etc. as opposed to the good old BS381C standard? Michael Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Chris and Kayo Amano-Langtree" Subject: Camouflage Vol 4 Hi All I've just received my copy of Camouflage Vol 4 and thought I would post a few impressions on it. Firstly it follows the usual format of the Camouflage series with photos and lots of illustrations. However I would say that it is a significant improvement over the other three volumes. The author has included a lot of interesting and useful information on some very little known points. I particularly liked the information on the insides of the compass platforms and the section on turret fronts and bridge faces - very good and useful work here which must have taken a considerable amount of time. Fans of Landing Craft will also enjoy the comprehensive coverage of the various different types. However as with the other books in the series errors have crept in. With regard to the standard schemes the author states that they were introduced in the first half of 1944. In fact they were not issued until later that year (the CAFO is dated for October 1944). I also have doubts about the Prince of Wales scheme - the photos do not indicate that a white band was painted on her rear funnel and I am not convinced that her decks were camouflaged either. The King George V scheme is incomplete - this was an incredibly complex scheme and to do full justice to it you would need to show the plan and front and rear elevations. Ventilators were camouflaged as was the blast shield for the UP launcher on the stern (also not shown). Photographic evidence does exist for the port side of Sussex's second scheme it is the starboard side of her first scheme that is missing. Another good point of this work is that the author has indicated where he has been unable to find photographic proof of a scheme which is a much more accurate approach. The errors are minor but I would have liked to have seen more correction of the mistake in the earlier volumes. That being said this is a very valuable and useful work which anyone who is interested in Royal Navy camouflage should buy Christopher Amano-Langtree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "bert" Subject: Re: w.h.shuey and other smmlie's ark's paint etc I am glad I got into this debate your? re "why did she sink from one torpedo strike"., Made me phone Bob this morning and ask his opinion on why she sank from one hit.His first answer over the phone was "I do not know". I then went over to his place and we came back here and had a yarn about "those days" (he doesn't trust himself with grog in the house at his age), me I don't care. and the promise of a tot soon got his tongue loose. we were chatting away, and he said "I had a phone call at 10.30 P.M on tuesday of last week, and it was the producer of a series being made in the U.K. of famous ships, and the first of series is about the "Ark" they contacted some of the survivors in the U.K.about dates, times, etc and they said to the producer the man you want is "Wilkie" and gave Him wilkie's number and the Producer said this is a long number Where does he live. and was told Melbourne! The upshot was that Wilkie spent 55 minutes in conversation with Him about the ark. I then asked Wilkie again about why He thought one fish could sink the ship and he said "well she WAS laid down in 1934 and was an entirely new design and maybe the sub-division was not as extensive as it could have been, and perhaps the ships pumps could not cope with the amount of water entering. Also the Captain of the "Ark" is believed to have refused a tow from one of the escorting cruisers, which may have enabled the ship to reach Gibraltar, before she was overcome, who knows now?. He then went on to say that it was a pity as "the Buzz" was that after arriving back in Gib they were going to the states for a 4 month refit! this would preclude the repaint theory (times were hard and materiel and money would not have been wasted on a patchwork paint job if this was the case) (2)How did the "Ark get in this condition" At that stage of the war Britains carriers were spread very thinly the Illustrious, Victorious and Formidable, had only been in commission for less than a year Vic Six months Illustrious 9 months Formidable 7 months. The "Ark" was commissioned in 1938 and was constantly at sea in one place or another Courageous and Glorious were already sunk furious was 21 years old hermes and eagle were in the east and the med respectively leaving the bulk of the home fleet carrier work to the "Ark". from Norway to Bismark to ferrying aircraft to malta as well as forays with force "H" covering troop convoys from the U.K. to africa and egypt She did not spend all her time in the med with it's Benign? weather. two years almost constant seatime can play havoc with the paint of a ship, especially if it is in different climes and what you may believe is a camo scheme could be wear and rust streaks etc. Plenty of time in Gib between turn rounds! What do you think it was a RO-RO? we are talking wartime here not mediteranean cruise ships! There is such a thing as storing ship and reammunitioning as for the AA mounts being in a different colour having recently been fitted they would be freshly painted and show up different to the old paint. I do not know the shade of Grey but I am of the opinion that Iain Wyllie has it right. When all is said and done, be your own Henry Ford and paint it any colour you like as long as it's grey and one shade. hooray for the paint party. (TaT) up spirits stand fast the 'oly ghost. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Les Pickstock Subject: Re: Ark Royal This thread get more and more interesting. I don't think its possible that Ark Royal was dry docked at the time as this would, surely, have been mentioned by the histories of her. I don't know for certain if Gibralter had or has a dry dock big enough to take a ship of that size. Any re-painting would probably have been done from pontoons while she was at anchor. The large "overhang" at the bow and stern would most likely preclude the use of bosun's chairs. I think it's obvious that the intention was to re-paint the whole ship and the lower part was done before she sailed on her last convoy, judging by the state of her upper hull the lower part must have been a real mess. The question of the veracity of memories is interesting. I tend to think that the guys who were there are a primary source after photographs although I can think of at least one instance which has to be doubted. An account of air combat by an FAA pilot describes an attack on German dive bombers in which he mentions that he was so close that the "large red swastika" on the wing filled his windscreen. Pressure and trauma of combat may account for lapses of memory hardly suprising when considering the ordeals faced by those brave men. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Les Pickstock Subject: Re: USN WW2 vehicle colours USN gray was used by the USMC for LVTs often camouflaged over with green and brown. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Dean, Tom" Subject: Paying off Pennant Hi Gang: If I recall the" paying off pennant" somewhat exceeded a meter for every year of service. I seem to remember it starting at a "base" length and that was added too by a formula for years of service. The starting point had something to do with the class of ship it was to be flown from. no doubt it changed somewhat from navy to navy. I was on HMCS NEW WATERFORD, when she payed off in December 1966. She was 301' in length and was in commission for 20 some years. The pennant was longer than the ship and attempts were made to float the end out on helium inflated balloons. Anyone who has entered Halifax Harbour in December could guess the results. We were able to pay out about 200' before disaster struck. The wind and snow picked up and it ended up wrapped around anything that stuck out more than 10' from the ship. We were all allowed to take a piece off the pennant if we wanted. The commission pennant itself on that type of ship was on a small gaff. The last week or so out of Halifax we rotated a number of pennants so that the communicators could have one if they wished. After a brief service when the jack and ensign were lowered for the last time, I climbed the mast day and brought down the last one to fly and the Yeoman of Signals presented it to the Captain. My pennant still hangs in my rec room. As Darren stated, the newer ships flew their commission pennant from a halyard so they could be changed more readily. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Navis Model >> I agree with the earlier letter regarding Navis. I was surprised when I clicked on the site and saw that publication had been canceled. My subscription was up next month and I was wondering whether to renew or not, since I only received one new issue this year. Sad to see it go, that along with Plastic Ship Modeler. Is model shipbuilding on the decline? << No, more like the market forces seperating the wheat from the chaff. Not to flame any particular publication, but market forces are what they are. Whether or not I like a subject is immaterial unless there are enough others out there that also like it. With regard to PSM, Mark Persichetti (one of Dan's local IPMS friends) told me he thought Dan was just tired of doing it - too stressful for the "hobby" publication it had grown from. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "John Rule" Subject: Ark Royal and Memories I can echo the statement that memories are not necessarily as reliable as people think. A very good friend of mine served on HMS Malaya during the latter half of 1940 and early part of 1942. He remembered distinctly that the ship was grey and wasn't camouflaged. And this even though a photo in his own album clearly shows a very dark secondary turret or gunshield. From photographic evidence his memory is wrong. When, however, he remembers holystoning the grey paint off the deck when the ship was in transit to New York for repair, I would say this is likely accurate, as the memory is imprinted by the agony of the event. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From:neiltaylor54@aol.com Subject: WTB: Aurora Enterprise Can anybody help? I model in 1: 600 scale and have a loft full of over 500 models. I've recently accquired 16 B-24's to place on my Aurora Enterprise/Hornet conversion to represent Doolittle's Raid. I now hope to convert an Aurora Enterprise to the Wasp and cover her decks in more of Tumbling Dice's excellent USN aeroplanes. My problem is my wife recently discovered how much I've been spending on my hobby and therefore I have a reduced amount of cash but many duplicates in store. So if someone out there has a spare Aurora Enterprise and can let me know how much they want for it or have I a kit they would be prepared to swop it for? I know I could try e-bay but I'm a modeller not a collector! Regards Neil Taylor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume