Subject: SMML VOL 2260 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:27:17 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: 88mm guns 2: Re: Navismag, PSM, and launching chaff 3: old models? 4: A flag question 5: Re: Aircraft carrier book impression, Model Ship Journal, etc 6: Re: aircraft carrier book impression 7: Re: 88mm guns 8: Re: green Indiana 9: Re: Ship plans 10: Re: Ark Royal colour timeline debate 11: Re: green battleships 12: Re: Aircraft carrier book impression 13: 1/350 Sea Sparrow 14: Publishers and editors 15: Hobby shops in Cincinnati 16: Re: 25 mm Japanese AA guns 17: Re: 25 mm Japanese AA guns 18: HMS "Bluebell" plan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: marketplace listing ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Ron Subject: 88mm guns >> In connection with building models of German warships of World War One, especially the Derfflinger, Lutzow and Hindenburg, does anyone know if the Kaiser's Navy had two different types of shielded 88mm (3.4-in.) guns? I know there was a shielded 88mm AA, but was there also a shielded low-angle gun of that caliber? I'm wondering because I think the Derfflinger and Lutzow initially carried eight 88mm guns, and I'd like to know if some were low-angle and some were AA or what. Also, if there was a low-angle 88mm mount, where can I find a photo or plan of one? << The 88mm gun you refer to was probably a navalized version of the FLAK 18. If so the weapon could fire at both low and high angles. From the beginning all German FLAK guns up to at least 88mm could fire in the direct infantry support role. On the land based side, it wasn't until the WWII time frame that the Germans developed the low angle PAK specific sighting and fusing mechanisms for the 88's. It's possible the German navy had low angle sighting and fusing during WWI as part of a naval mount, most likely the gun and basic mount were the same as the land based version. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Navismag, PSM, and launching chaff From: Phil Stewart >> But the 'market' isn't the linear and impartial beast it's cracked up to be! More forces are at work than simple supply and demand. Some great products have been knocked out of the market by forces having little to do with demand-- market position as a supplier and access to distribution channels being examples of these other complex forces. << I don't think we'll ever be able to apply the "classic economic theory" to internet products. The basic problem with the "classic economic theory" is that the internet supply chain is unlimited while the demand is finite. There must be enough demand for the supplied product for the item to be successful. The only limiting factor to this supply is the lack of accessibility of the internet in certain gloabl areas. James Corley ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Perry Tolliver" Subject: old models? Does anyone know if anyone makes a model of the old breastwork monitors or barbet warships? Thank you ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Michael London" Subject: A flag question While most books illustrate the French tricolor as having three vertical stripes, blue white and red, all of the same width I have come across a publication which disagrees with these proportions. "Flags for ship modellers and marine artists" by Alec A. Purves, first published in 1950 with a reprint in 1983, claims that the modern French flag has the blue at 30% of the width, white at 33% and red at 37%. These widths were, he claims, arrived at to improve their visibility while being flown at sea. Perhaps a French contributor could confirm or otherwise. Michael London ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: GKingzett Subject: Re: Aircraft carrier book impression, Model Ship Journal, etc Regarding these topics. I have always been grateful to Anthony Preston, not for the accuracy of his work, (I don't know enough about most of his topics to be able to comment on them) but because his books are always attractive, graphically well presented, his subjects are broad enough to attract a wide general audience, and his books are available in the major bookstores. Let's face it, ship modeling needs a wider audience to have a chance to grow, or at least to replace those of us whose fingers are growing stiff and whose glasses are getting thicker. I don't quibble with Bob Steinbrunn; of course Avengers shouldn't be confused with Hellcats, but at the entry level, who can tell? There is always plenty of time for new fanatics to become aware of the differences. The first time any of us saw Victory at Sea were we aware how many duplicated film sequences were presented as different battles? Or did we know that the battleship Missouri didn't have a flat bottom like Revell said it did? I doubt it. Did it make any difference to us? No, here we are. Rusty White's latest article in Fine Scale Modeler is labeled as 1:96 scale, clearly it is 1:192. Does that make any difference to the 80,000 readers of the magazine? I hope not. I would rather think that a few of that number would be moved to buy a ship model kit for the first time and try it out. Victor Baca's financial problems with Model Ship Journal, as well as the demise of Model Ship Builder, Plastic Ship Modeler, International Maritime Modeler and Navis, and the duplicated efforts of Steelnavy and Model Warship all indicate the same thing, there aren't enough of us. And the fact that even within this tiny fraternity, we can waste time and energy arguing about whose scale is best, or whose bow is sharpest, or whose skin is thinnest makes me wonder where we are headed. These can be the best of times for our hobby. With more and more suppliers making increasingly esoteric models and parts available, with the vast flow of information the Internet provides, and with more discretionary money available than ever before, let's accentuate the positive, as the old song goes. In this hobby, the more the merrier. Gary Kingzett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: joe.sus Subject: Re: aircraft carrier book impression A friend went to the comissioning of the USS Ronald Reagan, and showed me the cover of the program booklet, which was a head on color shot of the carrier. "Notice anything odd?" he asked with a smile. The island was to port. You'd think those navy guys would know better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Sab1156 Subject: Re: 88mm guns Greetings to all, About the WW I german 8,8cm guns:There were indeed 2 different types: the 8,8cm L35 SK(Seatarget gun against destroyers) and the 8,8cm L45 which was a aa-gun. This aa-gun was from 1915/16 on board of most of the battleships and battlecruisers, also first on the Panzerschiff Deutschland. Luetzow never got the aa-guns. Derfflinger until 1916 8 x 8,8 SKs,from 1916 on 4 x 8,8 aa-guns.Hindenburg also first 8 x 8,8 Sks,from 1917 on 4 x aa-guns. Best Regards Detlef Hartwig ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "JOHN WERLER" Subject: Re: green Indiana >> Actually, the Haruna was painted in greens!, but only after she was immobilized in Japan with no fuel. I am working to make still copies from some 16mm motion picture films, which are the only color images left of the IJN. These were taken in October 1945 and again in February 1946 and show many of the IJN warships. The clarity is really good. << Steve, Is there any chance that you might get into the film side of the business as you have the pictorial publishing business? For years Roland Smith in England single-handedly produced his wonderful Naval Video Time Capsule series. Before his recent death he was able to offer twelve VHS tapes illustrating archival film episodes of the Britsh Navy during WWII. They are excellent historical documents and are higly recommended. In my correspondence with Roland Smith over the years it was apparent that it was a considerable amount of work to put this series together. But it was also obvious that it was a labor of love on his part and he appeared to thoroughly enjoy it. However, I have often wondered if someone would ever take on the task of producing a similar film version for the US Navy. I would imagine that the source footage would be much more plentiful and possibly less difficult to locate than the equivalent British footage. As you obviously are already doing considerable research work for your excellent Warship Pictorials and appear to have various footage already located, is there any chance that you might someday expand into such a series of film programs? I'm sure that such would be well received and would be a tremendous boon for US naval historians and modelers alike. Pictures are great but I think that film in some instances is even better. Here's hoping! John Werler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "James Davies" Subject: Re: Ship plans You can buy ship plans from the National Maritime Nuseum. Go to http://www.nmm.ac.uk and do a search for 'ship plans' for more info. You can contact them directly at: Ship Plans Section National Maritime Museum Greenwich London SE10 9NF Tel: +44 (0)20 8855 1647 Fax: +44 (0)20 8317 0263 E-mail: PlansandPhotos@nmm.ac.uk Regards James ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: m.f.mclaughlin Subject: Re: Ark Royal colour timeline debate I believe that Ark Royal spent most of her short but, active 27 months of service in the medium gray colour shade of 507B for her hull and upperworks with her flight deck painted in the dark gray shade of 507A. Assuming this to be correct then, 507B and 507A would be the predominant colours carried in limited supply in her own paint locker or stores. From what little can be made out from photographs, her interior bulkheads seem to be in a light gray colour. Sometime in 1941, possibly late fall while ferrying aircraft to Malta, the upper hull must have been painted in the light gray colour of 507C or similar in shade mix of paints. In closeups of her sinking, you can see by comparison that the lower hull of Ark Royal matches the same dark shade of hull as the destroyer Legion standing by which is clearly in a light/dark scheme. In my opinion, this dark shade on the lower hull of Legion is most likely the dark gray colour 507A or similar colour shade paint mix. Closeup photos of Ark Royal while sinking show that neither the upper hull light colour or lower hull dark colour is of more than one coat or so because, you can seen streaks of her original 507B colour showing through. Photo's of Ark Royal sinking as well as a portside photo taken of her during Operational Perpetual (IWM A.6318) November 41, show as Iain Wyllie and WR Press have pointed out, that her Island and 4.5 Dual Purpose mounts are not in the light 507C or similar shade colour. Since this colour seems to match the colour of the streaks showing through on her hull, I believe this colour is mostly likely the medium shade 507B. Interestingly, the November 41 photo's of Ark Royal appear to show that her type 72 homing beacon as well as the lower platforms on her mast are in a light gray colour. If the Island and 4.5 Dual Purpose guns had faded or had worn to the same degree as the hull, then it seems reasonable to me that she would have been able to use her available stores of the medium colour 507B to repaint these areas, which are near and above the flight deck level. Neither the Island or 4.5 Dual Purpose mounts themselves show streaks of an underlying colour from what I can see in these photo's, whereas the hull does show an underlying colour. What all this seems to suggest to me is that in the Fall of 1941, Ark Royal's hull was painted in the light/dark scheme of 507C/507A. Either this was interupted by the need to complete the ferry missions or the available paint stocks of these colours only allowed a single coat of both colours on the hull to be completed. In the light/dark schemes that I have seen, the upperworks are usually painted in the light colour. Since Ark Royal's Island and 4.5 Dual Purpose mounts are in what I believe is the medium shade 507B in November 1941, then it is possible that these areas were repainted after fading with her own available onboard stock. Given her busy schedule durring her last weeks of operation, I don't think she had the time or opurtunity to attempt repainting her fading hull colours. Painting the Island and 4.5 Dual Purpose mounts would have been hard enough to accomplish. My amateur opinion or 2 cents for what it's worth, Miles F. McLaughlin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: green battleships >> Also wasn't one or both of the pre-dreadnaughts that Germany used during WWII painted in green camo? (Shane is probally going to start having a fit right about now) << I believe you are correct. I think it was a green and dark gray pattern over a medium gray. I will check on this in all my spare time, ah, hell I will check right now! Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SteveWiper Subject: Re: Aircraft carrier book impression I can tell any interested that any of the mistakes in my books are my fault, ........................Oh and there are a few!.................. Unfortunately! I think I am among the very few who truly author and publish. I do all my own research, scanning, layout and writing, that is since WP #8. Some of the drawings are also done by myself. I am very fortunate to have proofreaders like Mr. A. D. Baker III. He really rakes me over the coals, but it is a good learning lesson. Warship Pictorial #18 - USS New Mexico BB40 was just published last month and in that book I have copies of original USN drawings, but the color illustration of BB40 in her Ms. 12 Modified camouflage, featured in the center spread was mine. That took about 30 hours to complete. Check out the samples and review on www.modelwarships.com Working on Warship Pictorial #19 - KM Bismarck and #20 - HMS Hood. I hope to have both out in October. The Hood book is almost finished and will go to the proofreaders (I always use more than one) in about one week. Bismarck is well along. Both books will contain a number of unpublished photos and the great CGI work of Thomas Schmid. Steve Wiper ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Joe & Adrienne Norris Subject: 1/350 Sea Sparrow Does anybody out there know of a source for 1/350 Mk.29 Sea Sparrow launchers (for a Tamiya CVN-65)? The kit parts look like they are 1/200 scale... Joe Norris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Publishers and editors I have proofread a few books and was intrigued to learn from the author of one of them that the publisher's editor had been through it and 'corrected' a number of things in the text by making them incorrect. Neither author or I had anticipated this 'improvement' and the result was many hours (although not mine fortunately) spent correcting these corrections to make the text make sense again. It appears therefore that dodgy spellings, grammar and particularly factual inaccuracies are not necessarily the responsibility of a part-time author but can be produced by a professional at the publisher's end of the chain. I will spare the publisher the embarrassment of being named.... Robert Lockie Swindon UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: abhijit Subject: Hobby shops in Cincinnati Hi Are there any good hobby shops in Cincinnati? Am here for this week. Abhijit ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Rui Francisco Matos" Subject: Re: 25 mm Japanese AA guns Hi Nuno Please check this link: http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~pitroad/25.jpg It shows the IJN 25mm Machine Gun Type96 with the barrel of the gun in black. The rest is in grey, but that grey depends on what you are building and where it was built (as you should know there are diferent kinds of IJN grey!!). Hope this helped, Rui Matos (aka Skipper) Almada, Portugal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: John Snyder Subject: HMS "Bluebell" plan Hi All, We've had a query from one of our customers who purchased the Sambrook plan of BLUEBELL. I just know that some of you will be able to answer his questions: - Propeller: from the plan it seems to be a three bladed clockwise prop. Sure it is not a four bladed one? - Deck lining: in most of the Flower corvettes photos I saw, a wooden planks lining of decks is shown in way of anchors windlass and at the aft end of engine room deckhouse. Beside that SEMTEX walkways are provided on bare steel decks and gun platforms. Their lack in the plan must be considered a lack of detail, or really they did not exist on HMS "Bluebell"? - Colour scheme: Pennant number, funnel number and draught scales appears (in a small white and black photo of "Bluebell" I saw) of a shade that is not surely black nor white, maybe a darker blue shade than Western Approaches colour scheme. Could you kindly confirm? - Lifebuoy and liferafts assume the same colour of the camouflage (in this case white) or mantain some more visible colur (red, yellow...). And what about other gears (anchor windlass, depth charges barrels,...)? - Nameplate: is wooden with white letters or white with coloured letters? I found both solutions in various ships. Thanking you for answering these questions, I send you my best greetings. Pier Vincenzo De Marzo Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://whiteensignmodels.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Ron Subject: marketplace listing E-mail me for payment details and to reserve items, two week maximum reserve time unless you make arrangements at time of initial contact. I do NOT accept Paypal or personal checks. Stuff to sell or swap (unless otherwise noted all items are complete, unstarted and in original packaging) All prices are a SWAG, reasonable offers and package deals considered: 1/72 scale aircraft and decals: Italeri DO24T kit #122 $15 1/48 scale aircraft and detail sets: Monogram OA-4M, kit 5436 $12 Aires F-104 Starfighter wheel bay set 4103 $6 Aires F-104 Starfighter wheel bay set 4103 $6 Eduard F-86F PE set 48274 $12 Eduard Bf109-G10 Zoom PE set FE104 $5 Eduard TA152-H1 PE set 48224 $12 Paragon B-17 ETO Mickey Radome #4850 $9.50 Paragon Mossie Universal Radome #4843 $9.50 Paragon Mossie Prototype Conversion #4868 $37.50 Hawkeye Designs Bf109-F/G resin cockpit #305 $5 Unknown mfgr Vac Erla Haube canopy with white metal tailwheels & armored headrests for Bf109's $5 1/48 scale decals: Cutting Edge U2R/S Dragon Lady CED48026 $7 Cutting Edge Corsair Nose art part 4, CED48124 $7 Aeromaster Falcons of the Red Star 48-505 $5 Aeromaster Augsberg Eagles part XI 48-461 (has Gunther Rall's A/C) $7 Eagle Strike Fokker D.VII, part 2 48080 $7 Eagle Strike Albatros D.III/D.V part 2, 48079 $8 Eagle Strike American Jabos part VII P-47 razors 48098 $7 Eagle Strike American Jabos part VIII P-47 bubbles 48099 $7 Eagle Strike Corsair Collection part III 48093 $7 Super Scale USMC F9F-5 Panthers VMF-224 and VMA-223 48-779 $6 MSAP Bf109B/C/D 4807 $4 1/35 Armor, accessories and figures: Archer Tiger Mix 4 #35158 $6 Archer Panther A Mix 1 Grossdeutschland #35159 $6 Archer Panther A Mix 2 Wiking #35160 $6 Archer Panther A Mix 2 Wiking #35160 $6 Archer Panther A Mix 3 Wiking & Grossdeutschland #35161 $5 Archer Panther A Mix 7 Panthers in Italy #35165 $7 Archer Panther A Mix 8 Panzer Lehr #36166 $8 DML 16th Luftwaffe Field Div. Kit#6084 $6 DML German Pz.Gren. Kharkov 1943 Kit#6059 $6 DML Hummel #6004 with Eduard PE #35284 (basic Hummel set) and 35292(ammo boxes and floor) sold as package only $50 Custom Dioramics M10/Achilles PE set CD-2012 $20 Verlinden Marines WWII "Checking Out" #1871 $12 Mirage SdKfz 123 (the toast rack version) #35108 $25 Tamiya Mobelwagen (less crew) #35101 $20 Tamiya M3 Bradley #3631.1600 $20 Tamiya Hummer with Bushmaster #35143 $20 Italeri LAV-25 TUA #263 $18 Italeri Steyr Tractor #227 $18 Italeri (Revell boxing) Opel Maultier #2116 with Trakz Canvas Cover #0003 (sold as set only) $40 Warriors Hitler Youth Member 1945 #35046 $12 Jaguar US Truckers Highway 1 Vietnam '65 (2 figs) #63104 $16 Jaguar Oddball's Tank Crew (1 full, 2 half figs) #63134 $17 Unknown dozer blade handwritten note says AEF CK3 $6 Unused kit tracks, 1/35: DML M4A3E8 T80 individual track links $5 Italeri Pz.I B and Marder III H band tracks $5 (for both) Ships: Revell USS Saratoga CV-60, kit # 5025, 80's-90's airwing, some parts loose, appears to be complete $15 Gold Medal Model 1/600 merchant ship PE #600-2 $12 Toms Modelworks 1/400 Bismark PE set#4006 $15 Toms Modelworks 1/700 USS Arizona PE set#750 $10 Flagship Models 1/700 USS Texas/New York Dreadnought super set #700-16 $19 Misc: Fort Dusquene Boudica 120mm resin figure kit #708 $30 Panzer Tracts #10, Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten by Jentz & Doyle $15 Squadron Signal M2/M3 Bradley in Action $7 Ian Allen Press "Blitzkrieg, France, Holland and Belgium" $15 Item to swap ONLY: Blue Water Navy 1/350 USS Stevens Fletcher Class destroyer with turret #3 replaced by aircraft catapult; will swap ONLY for BWN or equal quality resin full hull kit of a square bridge Fletcher DD in 1/350. Stuff I'm looking for: Decent 1/700 or 1/350 kits of US or British WWII battleships and cruisers Tom's Modelworks 1/359 USS Fletcher square bridge conversion set w/40mm guns #TC-3503 or TC3504 1/700 PE sets for US fast battleships, escort carriers, cruisers Gold Medal Models: USS Essex 350-22 USS Essex 350-22A WWII USN floater net baskets 350-24 White Ensign Models: USS Essex the ship PE 3536 USS Essex the airwing PE 3553 USS Essex perforated catwalks PE 3554 HMS Belfast/Edinburg PE (1/600 scale) L'Arsenal: 20mm Oerlikons 350-01 Quad 40mm Bofors 350-07 Mk51 gun directors 3511 Twin Bofors 3512 Modelpoint: 3526 Barrel for Bradley (2 needed) 3559-1 120mm barrel for Abrams Jordi: TG34 Pershing barrel (2 needed) Tamiya: 35159 AAVP7A1 Trumpeter 1/350 planes I will also consider swapping for 1/35 armor PE and resin (WWII US and German, modern US and Brit). Also will consider books. e-mail rwsmithjr@rcn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume